Logical? Deism.

[Tricky]

Why dont you wear a dress to work?

Because I don't choose to.

Are you not a product of your surroundings?

Partially, but not completely, as you have demonstrated. What did your "surroundings" have to do with you picking the number 33?

Why dont you use free-willy and walk to work.

What makes you think I don't walk to work? What is your evidence?

So if you were born in a poor part of Africia, I take it that you use free-will to check your e-mails?

Don't mix tenses, wraith. It makes you look ignorant.
If I were born in a poor part of Africa but I had a PC and internet connections, I could use free will to check my e-mail. Otherwise, it would not be an available option. Why is this concept so difficult for you?

Are you this dense?

I'm certainly not the brightest poster here, it only appears that way in when I am replying to you.

Trixy, "Fighter aircraft of the US airforce."
What did you think of?

If there is no free will, then you should be able to predict this. I imagine it would surprise you. However, I can describe a test to show how good your powers of prediction are.

My wife and I play "word association" a lot, where you take turns saying the first word that the last person's word reminds you of. Even though I probably know her better than anyone else in the world does, I usually cannot guess what she will say. Why? She has free will too!

Is this evidence of free-will?

Yes. Duh.

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

I'm certainly not the brightest poster here, it only appears that way in when I am replying to you.

Brilliant!

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist)
One need not subscribe to a belief to be able to define it. For example, I can define God, even though I see no evidence for one. It may not agree with your definition, but I am capable of grasping the concept. It is a pity that you are so mentally hamstrung that you can't do this.

Well, I was unimpressed by your “4-sided triangle” as well “Tricky”.

I guess I’m just not as good at pretending I can imagine illogical things as well as you pretend Tricky?

Available means it is an option that it is possible to choose. For example, defying gravity is not an available option.

How about picking your parents?

How about selecting your gender at birth?

How about your height? Hair color? eye color? Place of birth? I.Q.? Elementary School? Whether your mother was an alcoholic? Whether your father was abusive?

What gives you the notion that you have ANY more ability to “choose” then the Moon does? What makes you believe that you have any more ability to “choose” anything than an Atom does?

What is you EVIDENCE for this claim? (other than your obvious Wishful Thinking?)

Perceived means that you realize the option is there. For example, the option for you to define "free will" is available, but you cannot perceive it. Having poor perception drastically reduces your free will.

yeah … like I said, wishful thinking. You haven’t provided a single scrap of evidence that you have any more “choice” then the Moon does in selecting it’s orbital position. You are living in a little A-Theist Fantasy world Trixy, and after dedicating your entire life to your Religion I think it is very obvious that it is Far, far more important to you than the Truth.

 

[Tricky]

Well, I was unimpressed by your “4-sided triangle” as well “Tricky”.

I knew you would be. At least you admit that free will exists now.

I guess I’m just not as good at pretending I can imagine illogical things as well as you pretend Tricky?

I would agree to that. You appear to be severely deficient in imagination.

How about picking your parents?

Not an available option. You appear to be severely deficient in reading skills too.

(Insert generic Franko post here)

As well as severely deficient in originality. Get some new material. Maybe some "new information" will enter your system.

 

[Tricky]

For once you can make a point instead of simply looking like a dogmatic A-Theist imbecile.

You can forget it, Dungeonmaster. I'm on to you now. The game has lost its spark for me.

 

[Franko]

Tricky:

I would agree to that. You appear to be severely deficient in imagination.

Yeah, but it did really crack me up when you claimed that you could actually comprehend things which you acknowledged you could not comprehend. That was a hoot.

Explain "free will" for me trixy, You claim to "comprehend" how it works. If things aren't completely determined by the events of your past (your past memories), then precisely and exactly how are they determined? Explain the magic process by which your actions are not determined completely by your past experiences?

For once you can make a point instead of simply looking like a dogmatic A-Theist imbecile.

 

[wraith]

wraith: why dont you wear a dress to work?

Trix: Because I don't choose to.

Is that "choice" based on how you interpret your past?

wraith: Are you not a product of your surroundings?

Trixartially, but not completely, as you have demonstrated. What did your "surroundings" have to do with you picking the number 33?

My "surroundings" sent me to school.
My "surroundings" taught me how to count.

When you asked me to pick a number between 1 and 100, my MPB was to actually answer your question and to pick a number. My MPB was to "choose" the first number that came to my head.

I perveived no benefit to spend an "excessive" amount of time to go through a systematic process and "choose" a number.
If you asked me to "choose" a number, and that "choice" had a worthy outcome, then I would have put some effort into it

What makes you think I don't walk to work? What is your evidence?

I just assumed

Don't mix tenses, wraith. It makes you look ignorant.
If I were born in a poor part of Africa but I had a PC and internet connections, I could use free will to check my e-mail.

Looks to me that youre simply obeying TLOP.

Otherwise, it would not be an available option. Why is this concept so difficult for you?

Youre obeying TLOP
You are a product of your surroundings.
If there is an internet connection, and I like using the net, then I will use the internet connection.
If there is none, then I wont use one. I cant go and willy nilly rock on up to a computer and get on-line

wriath: Trixy, "Fighter aircraft of the US airforce."
What did you think of?

Trix: If there is no free will, then you should be able to predict this.

Thats a bit hard when you dont have all the information
Does determinism imply that I control TLOP?

I imagine it would surprise you. However, I can describe a test to show how good your powers of prediction are.

I wasnt trying to predict anything, I wanted to know what you thought of...

My wife and I play "word association" a lot, where you take turns saying the first word that the last person's word reminds you of. Even though I probably know her better than anyone else in the world does, I usually cannot guess what she will say. Why? She has free will too!

Thats great
You still havent answered my question.
What did you think of?
Is this evidence of free-will and why?

 

[Tricky]

Is that "choice" based on how you interpret your past?

Mostly, but not 100% I still have the option to wear a dress.

My "surroundings" sent me to school.
My "surroundings" taught me how to count.

When you asked me to pick a number between 1 and 100, my MPB was to actually answer your question and to pick a number. My MPB was to "choose" the first number that came to my head.

So all of your "surroundings" couldn't tell you what number you'd pick. Since there was no MPB, and no surroundings to clue you in, without free will, you should have been paralyzed, unable to pick anything. And yet you did. BTW, putting "choose" in quotes does not change the definition. You chose. You cannot substitute MBP because then it would read "My MPB was to MPB the first number...". Give it up.

I perveived no benefit to spend an "excessive" amount of time to go through a systematic process and "choose" a number.
If you asked me to "choose" a number, and that "choice" had a worthy outcome, then I would have put some effort into it

If you perceived no benefit in choosing a number using a systematic process, then you could not have chosen a number, with no free will. MPB only works when there is Perceived Benefit, right?

I just assumed

And wrongly. I live about a mile and a half from work. Some days I walk. Some days I ride my bike. Some days I drive. I use my free will to decide which mode to use. Your example has failed again, as have all of your examples.

Looks to me that youre simply obeying TLOP.

Yes, this wraith character has a very simple outlook. It does not analyze much. Still I like it better than the Franko character.

Youre obeying TLOP
You are a product of your surroundings.
If there is an internet connection, and I like using the net, then I will use the internet connection.
If there is none, then I wont use one. I cant go and willy nilly rock on up to a computer and get on-line

Nope. You can only choose between available options, as I have explained many (many, many, many) times before.

Thats a bit hard when you dont have all the information
Does determinism imply that I control TLOP?

Well your basic argument is that something has all the information. Unless you can show that this is true, then it is purely hypothesis on your part. Unless you can show me where TLOP have this information, then why should I believe that they do? Since you are claiming that TLOP are conscious, you have the burden of proof.

I wasnt trying to predict anything, I wanted to know what you thought of...

An aircraft carrier, if you must know. Is that what you thought of? No? I guess we have different MPB .

Well, dungeonmaster, I am tiring of your game. I will leave you to play with others. I am glad you are having fun with internet schizophrenia, but now that I see the man behind the curtain, the face of Oz isn't as exciting as before. Now if you come up with some new material, perhaps I will play again. This constant rehashing gets old, especially when I know you don't believe any of it.

 

[wraith]

Mostly, but not 100% I still have the option to wear a dress.

But is it really an option?
If you wanted to impress your boss and you knew that your boss would not be impressed if you wore a dress, then the choice of "wearing a dress to work" isnt a choice at all.

So all of your "surroundings" couldn't tell you what number you'd pick. Since there was no MPB, and no surroundings to clue you in, without free will, you should have been paralyzed, unable to pick anything. And yet you did.

I told you what the MPB was. It was to answer your question by actually picking a number and also to "choose" the number that first came to my head.

BTW, putting "choose" in quotes does not change the definition.

It does actually
You perceive a "choice" as some sort of option that you "chose" because of free-will. In other words, youre saying that your past has nothing to do with your present.

Im saying that a "choice" is simply the result of an input processed by your MPB. (The present is based on your past.)

If you perceived no benefit in choosing a number using a systematic process, then you could not have chosen a number, with no free will.

?
Why?
I take it that deciding what you want for dinner is illogical without free-will?

And wrongly. I live about a mile and a half from work. Some days I walk. Some days I ride my bike. Some days I drive. I use my free will to decide which mode to use. Your example has failed again, as have all of your examples.

lol
how can it be wrong if i wasnt trying to predict anything?
anyway, the causes for you driving, cycling or walking to work are all logical.
You wouldnt walk to work if it's raining and you wanted to keep dry.

Nope. You can only choose between available options, as I have explained many (many, many, many) times before.

Those other options are not really options that you would engage.

Well your basic argument is that something has all the information. Unless you can show that this is true, then it is purely hypothesis on your part. Unless you can show me where TLOP have this information, then why should I believe that they do? Since you are claiming that TLOP are conscious, you have the burden of proof.

Yes

CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP
without using a double standard, how are you more conscious than TLOP without the car being more conscious than you?

wraith: I wasnt trying to predict anything, I wanted to know what you thought of...

Trix: An aircraft carrier, if you must know. Is that what you thought of? No?

I thought of an F-22 actually

I guess we have different MPB .

ofcourse we do
we are different entities

Well, dungeonmaster, I am tiring of your game. I will leave you to play with others. I am glad you are having fun with internet schizophrenia, but now that I see the man behind the curtain, the face of Oz isn't as exciting as before. Now if you come up with some new material, perhaps I will play again. This constant rehashing gets old, especially when I know you don't believe any of it.

youre going down in a ball of fire Trix

 

[Tricky]

youre going down in a ball of fire Trix

I am simply returning my fighter plane to the aircraft carrier, since I have discovered there is no "real" enemy to engage. I'll let others participate in your "war games".

 

[MRC_Hans]

CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP
without using a double standard, how are you more conscious than TLOP without the car being more conscious than you?

Do explain how anyting follows from this, Wraith, Frank, or whoever. Both I and my car are restrained by tlop. How is this evidence of tlop being conscious in any way?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

bump

 

[Franko]

Do explain how anyting follows from this, Wraith, Frank, or whoever. Both I and my car are restrained by tlop. How is this evidence of tlop being conscious in any way?

It's a hierarchy MRC, TLOP is more conscious then YOU and your CAR.

Think of the Army ... A General commands (controls) a Captain who in turn commands a Private.

 

[MRC_Hans]

It's a hierarchy MRC, TLOP is more conscious then YOU and your CAR.

Think of the Army ... A General commands (controls) a Captain who in turn commands a Private.

Yeah, I understand what you MEAN, but that doesn't make it make sense. Why is it a hierarchy? Why is the way tlop controls me any different from the way it controls my car?

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
Yeah, I understand what you MEAN, but that doesn't make it make sense. Why is it a hierarchy? Why is the way tlop controls me any different from the way it controls my car?

Do you directly control the fuel mix/rate as it flows to your CAR's engine, or do you indirectly control it by directly controlling the gas pedal?

In the same way the LG indirectly controls your CAR by directly controlling YOU.

Keep in mind YOU and the LG are both Gravitons, your CAR is not.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Hmmmmm... Nope, Franko, it's still bollocks.

 

[Franko]

Aardvark:
Hmmmmm... Nope, Franko, it's still bollocks.

I guess since you don't feel the need to present ANY evidence we'll just have to take your word for it?

Yeah ... like I said Aardvark, YOU are no Skeptic.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Franko, if you don't understand that TLOP's consciousness doesn't follow from your "CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP", then there is really nothing we can do about it. And if you like to believe that you're a skeptic and pretty much everyone else here is not... well, knock yourself out, kid!


*Aardvark suddenly realises that he's arguing with Franko again*

DOH! This really says a lot about how empty my life is at the moment.

 

[Franko]

Aardvark:
I see no evidence for any god or gods existence, and therefore I don't believe in, or lack belief in, any god or gods.

I see no evidence for any “black holes” existence, and therefore I don't believe in, or lack belief in, any “black holes”.

I see no evidence for any “extraterrestrial Aliens” existence, and therefore I don't believe in, or lack belief in, any “extraterrestrial Aliens”.

I see no evidence for any “free willy” existence, and therefore I don't believe in, or lack belief in, any “free willy”.

I guess when you are an A-Theist you have to throw consistency out the window.

Ohh well … at least you have your Dogma Aardfart!

Aardfart: (hopeless A-Theist nutcase)
if you don't understand that TLOP's consciousness doesn't follow from your "CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP", then there is really nothing we can do about it.

And if you don’t understand that YOU claiming to be more conscious then TLOP is the same as YOU claiming your CAR is more conscious then YOU then there us really nothing that I want to do about it. To be honest I enjoy making an idiot out of You, Trixy, CWL, MRC, Evildave, Da Fool, Titanpout, De-Bungler, Stimpy, etc. etc. day after day. Why the hell do you think I spend so much time here?

And if you like to believe that you're a skeptic and pretty much everyone else here is not...

What I believe is academic. In all likelihood I’m just a figment of your imagination … I don’t even exist …

 

[Aardvark_DK]

You, Trixy, CWL, MRC, Evildave, Da Fool, Titanpout, De-Bungler, Stimpy, etc. etc.

Hey, I'm in (mostly) pretty good company! Thanks, Franko!

*blushes*