Logical? Deism.

[billydkid]

I didn't even catch on to this

Which explains why after dedicating over 30 years of your existence to the Religion of A-Theism you still can't provide a single scrap of evidence for any of the whacky things you believe.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

Eat this.

I hadn't even grasped what franko was really getting at until with his TLOP/A-theist routine until I happened upon this post. His "god" actually is his beloved TLOP. It is really tough to imagine that anyone could work up all this passion TLOP and passionate hatred for those inclined not to worship it. So that's the great answer god is the laws of physics. What a dolt.

 

[wraith]

You're getting further and further out on that limb, Wraith. We exist in this universe. If a graviton is part of us, it must exist in this universe too. You are starting to sound like a bad science fiction story. You cannot keep making up stuff like this. Pretty soon, no one will even find it humerous, much less believable.

It's not my problem if youre so dependent on matter.

 

[Tricky]

It's not my problem if youre so dependent on matter.

No, I'd have to say your problems go much deeper than the question of whether matter matters.

 

[whitefork]

Re: I didn't even catch on to this

I hadn't even grasped what franko was really getting at until with his TLOP/A-theist routine until I happened upon this post. His "god" actually is his beloved TLOP. It is really tough to imagine that anyone could work up all this passion TLOP and passionate hatred for those inclined not to worship it. So that's the great answer god is the laws of physics. What a dolt.

I don't think that's how it goes. All the F-arguments are directed against A-theists. TLOP and free-willy are A-theist gods. He's telling you what you believe, according to Logical Deism. This is the reason why most people here think the whole basis of the argument is building and attacking the old straw man.

That's what I've concluded after months of watching the game. The positive elements of LDeism appear in Tricky's list. They are not supported by any arguments as far as I can tell.

 

[CWL]

Re: Re: I didn't even catch on to this

I don't think that's how it goes. All the F-arguments are directed against A-theists. TLOP and free-willy are A-theist gods. He's telling you what you believe, according to Logical Deism. This is the reason why most people here think the whole basis of the argument is building and attacking the old straw man.

That's what I've concluded after months of watching the game. The positive elements of LDeism appear in Tricky's list. They are not supported by any arguments as far as I can tell.

Yup that's pretty much it.

The funniest thing about F is how he claims not to be here to proselytize for his "Logical Deism", yet in the very next breath he will tell you the sole reason for his presence on the board is to demonstrate how stupid all "A-Theists" are.

Whatever his agenda, intelligent discussion is not it.

 

[Tricky]

Speaking of The List, it is about time for an update. Thanks to all, especially Latimer who helped research. New entries in red.
****

NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
  [*] Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are made of time
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
  [*] MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
  [*] A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[billydkid]

Re: Re: I didn't even catch on to this

I don't think that's how it goes. All the F-arguments are directed against A-theists. TLOP and free-willy are A-theist gods. He's telling you what you believe, according to Logical Deism. This is the reason why most people here think the whole basis of the argument is building and attacking the old straw man.

That's what I've concluded after months of watching the game. The positive elements of LDeism appear in Tricky's list. They are not supported by any arguments as far as I can tell.

Well, Franko did write "TLOP (God), controls you, controls car..." it seems to me writing "TLOP (God)...." is saying TLOP and God are synonymous.

 

[Tricky]

Re: Re: Re: I didn't even catch on to this

Well, Franko did write "TLOP (God), controls you, controls car..." it seems to me writing "TLOP (God)...." is saying TLOP and God are synonymous.

That's the odd part. Franko has deified TLOP time and time again, arguing in fact that they are an aspect of the Logical Goddess. At the same time, he claims that atheists (or at least A-Theists) also worship TLOP even if they don't know it. Since he has declared atheism to be a religion, he must also provide them with a god. The presumption that this "religion" that he hates so much shares the same god as Logical Deism is one of the many very strange things about Franko.

 

[whitefork]

Re: Re: Re: I didn't even catch on to this

Well, Franko did write "TLOP (God), controls you, controls car..." it seems to me writing "TLOP (God)...." is saying TLOP and God are synonymous.

You are of course correct, but the Sage of Baltimore has at least two flavors in his freezer - the one for the Logical Deists and the one for everybody else (the A-theists).

I do not have the link handy but he clearly stated that the "you/atoms/obey/tlop" trivet is "for the A-theists". Those who deny the existence of god are perforce believers in the deity of TLOP and the almighty toaster.

I don't think this position is part of the LD Catechism, but I'm no authority.

 

[Franko]

Wraith:
It's not my problem if you’re so dependent on matter.

They can Run, they can Concede, or they can be Annihilated.

And they can only Run so far D.A.

 

[Tricky]

They can Run, they can Concede, or they can be Annihilated.

And they can only Run so far D.A.

But they can't choose to do any of these, right?

 

[Franko]

But they can't choose to do any of these, right?

That depends upon your specific definition of the term "choice" (to "choose"). In my vocabulary there are no 'choices" per sae. Everything you "decide" is simply the result of an algorithm running that is your mind. Your "choices" are simply your preordained "outputs".

So even by my terminology you could say that they "choose" their own Fate ... Yes.

 

[Tricky]

That depends upon your specific definition of the term "choice" (to "choose"). In my vocabulary there are no 'choices" per sae. Everything you "decide" is simply the result of an algorithm running that is your mind. Your "choices" are simply your preordained "outputs".

So even by my terminology you could say that they "choose" their own Fate ... Yes.

Well, that's certainly one for the list. Any chance of getting you to verifiy the accuracy of the list? I'm trying to make it easy by linking the references now.
**********************

NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are made of time
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
• A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous/The Lexicon

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
  [*] choices are preordained outputs

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[Franko]

Ohhh Tricky, I'm much more interested in talking about A-Theism then I am in talking about Logical Deism. I talk enough about Logical Deism in the real world. Besides, as I keep stating I am NOT here to convert ANYONE to my beliefs. I am hear to find out why A-Theists think they are the most Skeptical Religion of all times?

Why don't you take 5 minutes and finally explain it to me?

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky, 30+ year A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky, 30+ year A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

 

[Tricky]

Because, Franko, I have never said any of those things. Why don't you post some links to show where I have?

You, on the other hand, are recorded as saying the things above, and I have shown evidence for many of them. I have also offered to change them if you will give me your corrections.

BTW. Look at the title of this thread. This thread is about Logical Deism. That is what we are discussing here. If you want to discuss atheism or A-Theism, start another thread.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist)
Because, Franko, I have never said any of those things. Why don't you post some links to show where I have?

So you are denying that you believe in “free will”? You are denying that you have claimed Determinism is FALSE? You are denying that you have claimed to have a “proof” for “free will”? and you are claiming that you have not stated CARs (or TOAST) is superior (more complex) than a HUMAN BEING?

You, on the other hand, are recorded as saying the things above, and I have shown evidence for many of them. I have also offered to change them if you will give me your corrections.

Yeah, I say what I believe and I stick to it. I don’t need to hide my beliefs like YOU do Tricky . A person only hides what they believe when they know they have no evidence to back any of it up.

BTW. Look at the title of this thread. This thread is about Logical Deism. That is what we are discussing here. If you want to discuss atheism or A-Theism, start another thread.

I’m here to talk about A-Theism. If you want to talk about Logical Deism I suggest you find yourself another Logical Deist.

Why don't you take 5 minutes and finally explain you’re a-Theism to me? Why don’t you PROVE you have nothing to hide Tricky?

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky, 30+ year A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky, 30+ year A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

 

[Tricky]

So you are denying that you believe in “free will

I have said I believe in free will defined as "The ability to choose between available, perceived options". I have not claimed to believe in free will as you have defined it.

You are denying that you have claimed Determinism is FALSE?

It is my understanding that quantum mechanics gives evidence that determinism is false.

You are denying that you have claimed to have a “proof” for “free will”?

Yes, I deny that. I said (many times) I have evidence for free will as I have defined it above. Here's another piece of evidence. I "chose" to respond to your post.

and you are claiming that you have not stated CARs (or TOAST) is superior (more complex) than a HUMAN BEING?

If anyone is interested, I can provide the links back to that discussion. However I never said cars were superior to humans. In fact, I disagree strongly that "superior" and "complex" are synonyms.

Yeah, I say what I believe and I stick to it. I don’t need to hide my beliefs like YOU do Tricky. A person only hides what they believe when they know they have no evidence to back any of it up.

I'm not hiding anything. If you ask me what I believe, I will tell you. If you tell me what I believe, then I will probably disagree. You have a bit of a history for mis-stating the positions of others.

I’m here to talk about A-Theism. If you want to talk about Logical Deism I suggest you find yourself another Logical Deist.

Well, it's a free forum. For someone who claims they don't want to talk about Logical Deism, though, you certainly have an impressive array of things you've said about it. I only ask that you give me corrections for my list so that those of us who do wish to discuss Logical Deism do not misrepresent its beliefs. What could be more fair?

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
I have said I believe in free will defined as "The ability to choose between available, perceived options". I have not claimed to believe in free will as you have defined it.

I never have defined “free will”, because it is a nonsensical concept that cannot be logical formulated.

What exactly does “choosing between available perceived options” mean? What “available perceived options” did you have in selecting your parents? What “available perceived options” did you have in selecting you hair color? Height? Final IQ? Etc. etc.?

What makes you believe that you EVER had any “available options”? You have NEVER presented ANY evidence that “choice” exist in the manner you describe.

It is my understanding that quantum mechanics gives evidence that determinism is false.

Yeah, but only of the present isn’t based on the past.

… and the last time I checked … the Buccaneer’s still had won the Super bowl.

Yes, I deny that. I said (many times) I have evidence for free will as I have defined it above. Here's another piece of evidence. I "chose" to respond to your post.

I Hate to burst your balloon, but that was Fate.

Check it out, I bet you will “choose” to respond to more of my posts in the future – That’s your Fate.

If anyone is interested, I can provide the links back to that discussion. However I never said cars were superior to humans. In fact, I disagree strongly that "superior" and "complex" are synonyms.

Okay, so if you are less complex than your CAR (as I have claimed all along), then how can you be more complex than TLOP?

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

If TLOP is controlling your destiny in an analogous fashion to the way YOU control CAR, then why isn’t TLOP similarly more conscious then YOU the way you are more conscious then CAR?

Who “chose” the color of your CAR?
Who “chose” the color of your Hair?

Who “chose” the make and model of your CAR?
Who “chose” that you would be a Human living in this time period as a Male?

Who “determines” your destination when you drive your CAR? YOU or CAR?
Who “determines” the direction your life will go (destination) in this Universe? Doesn’t TLOP decide ALL of the crucial factors that make you YOU? How many things happen to you that seem purely the result of chance (TLOP)? It looks to me like TLOP determines your destination far more than YOU do.

In short, I hear a CAR claiming to be more conscious then his DRIVER (TLOP).

 

[Tricky]

I never have defined “free will”, because it is a nonsensical concept that cannot be logical formulated.

One need not subscribe to a belief to be able to define it. For example, I can define God, even though I see no evidence for one. It may not agree with your definition, but I am capable of grasping the concept. It is a pity that you are so mentally hamstrung that you can't do this.

What exactly does “choosing between available perceived options” mean?

Available means it is an option that it is possible to choose. For example, defying gravity is not an available option. Perceived means that you realize the option is there. For example, the option for you to define "free will" is available, but you cannot perceive it. Having poor perception drastically reduces your free will.

What “available perceived options” did you have in selecting your parents?

Since travelling backwards in time is an impossiblity, this is not an available option, therefore it is not a free will choice. Are you really this dense?

What “available perceived options” did you have in selecting you hair color?

I can buy hair dye. As far a "natural" hair color goes, well that was decided before I was born. I cannot choose things when I don't yet exist.

Height?

Very little choice here. It is withing the range of possibility that I could have somehow obtained pituatary growth hormones when growing up. Not likely though.

Final IQ? Etc. etc.?

Depends on how you measure I.Q. The tests have never been shown to correct for all environmental factors. Certainly studying helped me score better on my GREs.

What makes you believe that you EVER had any “available options”? You have NEVER presented ANY evidence that “choice” exist in the manner you describe.

My, but your memory is short. Less than a month ago I used your sycophant, wraith to give evidence that even though he denied free will existed he could in fact
choose between available, perceived options. Here's the evidence.

I chose 33. No particular reason.

Yeah, but only of the present isn’t based on the past.

The present isn't base only on the past. All you have to do is have a single non-deterministic event to prove that the universe isn't deterministic. QM shows this to be the case.

… and the last time I checked … the Buccaneer’s still had won the Super bowl.

Yeah, and last time you weighed in on this, you said you

Posted by Franko on 1-26-2003
I bet I could tell you who will win …

Of course, in your typical show of bravery, you declined to follow up your brag with a prediction.

I Hate to burst your balloon, but that was Fate.

Check it out, I bet you will “choose” to respond to more of my posts in the future – That’s your Fate.

Of course I will. I have promised you I will continue to respond to you. But not to every post, nor can you predict without error to which posts I will respond. That's my free will.

The rest is just repetition. Bring me some new questions and I will answer them, just as I have answered your old ones. Better yet, post your corrections to the "List". Then you would actually be doing something constructive.

 

[wraith]

Available means it is an option that it is possible to choose. For example, defying gravity is not an available option. Perceived means that you realize the option is there. For example, the option for you to define "free will" is available, but you cannot perceive it. Having poor perception drastically reduces your free will.

Why dont you wear a dress to work?
Are you not a product of your surroundings?
Why dont you use free-willy and walk to work

Since travelling backwards in time is an impossiblity, this is not an available option, therefore it is not a free will choice. Are you really this dense?

So if you were born in a poor part of Africia, I take it that you use free-will to check your e-mails? Are you a product of your surroundings?

Are you this dense?

Originally posted by wraith
I chose 33. No particular reason.

Trixy, "Fighter aircraft of the US airforce."
What did you think of?
Is this evidence of free-will?