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Left Wing "virtue signaling"?

Thermal said:
Wouldn't it be up to the indigenous people to decide if the gesture was meaningful? If they accepted that they were in Whitey World now, and it was the fault of no one alive, and well, they kind of dig the whole penicillin and power tools life...maybe they would be okay with getting the token props of respect?
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It's certainly up to each individual to decide if they're going to interpret a given signal as indicating real virtue, or accept it as something better than nothing, or whatever else might be done with a particular attempt to signal virtue.

Personally I'd have little respect for a society that looked at a land ack statement on a grocery receipt and said, "yeah, that's all we needed, just a token gesture, we're all good now." And I'd have no respect at all for a society that held itself to that laughably low standard of virtue, and congratulated itself for doing at least that much.
 
theprestige said:
Personally I'd have little respect for a society that looked at a land ack statement on a grocery receipt and said, "yeah, that's all we needed, just a token gesture, we're all good now." And I'd have no respect at all for a society that held itself to that laughably low standard of virtue, and congratulated itself for doing at least that much.
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What more would you have them do? I'm guessing it's too late to undo centuries of title deeds.
 
theprestige said:
It's an empty gesture, is what it is.

If there were real, productive, transformative deeds being done, actual effective programs lifting people up and restoring their birthright, you could just point to those things and let the clear virtue of those deeds speak for itself.

You wouldn't have to resort to empty gestures just to reassure people that you care. People would know you care, because they'd see your actions and experience the caring that resulted.

Virtue signaling is the essence of slacktivism. It's making an empty gesture in lieu of doing the hard work of effecting real change. People run a flag up a flagpole and fall back on "at least it's something" like they're resting on their laurels. But really they're just flopped down on a bed of wilted lettuce. And not even the good kind of lettuce.
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Does 'unless it solves the problem completely, we shouldn't do a damn thing, and we especially shouldn't start improving the situation with the easy thing to do which builds momentum until we're doing the bigger stuff like giving oppressed minorities representation in the government!' really sound that convincing to you? Because it really sounds like you're ignoring all the other stuff Aussies are doing and the improvements these "empty gestures" are leading towards.
 
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theprestige said:
Then I'd have them say that, in so many words, and let the chips fall where they may.
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Fair enough. I'd be content if the land acknowledgements gave way to calls for living up to treaties made between sovereign tribes and the United States. It's weird to see someone like Neil Gorsuch out front on those issues.
 
I did here, too:

arthwollipot said:
No, something has to be done. And some things are being done. We are going to have a referendum, probably some time next year, on an Aboriginal Voice in Parliament. We're actually going to change the Australian constitution to ensure that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have direct representation in Parliament. That's something! That's important. That's progress.
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You must have just missed it.
 
Thermal said:
Wouldn't it be up to the indigenous people to decide if the gesture was meaningful? If they accepted that they were in Whitey World now, and it was the fault of no one alive, and well, they kind of dig the whole penicillin and power tools life...maybe they would be okay with getting the token props of respect?
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The measures that are being taken, the changes that are being made, including adopting an Acknowledgement of Country, are largely happening because of activism within Aboriginal communities, fighting for recognition and representation. It certainly wouldn't have ever been started solely by white people.
 
Thermal said:
Wouldn't it be up to the indigenous people to decide if the gesture was meaningful? If they accepted that they were in Whitey World now, and it was the fault of no one alive, and well, they kind of dig the whole penicillin and power tools life...maybe they would be okay with getting the token props of respect?
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It's kind of off-topic here, but I do also want to mention that a core component of indigenous culture and spirituality is the idea that dead ancestors are very much still present and aware. The idea of "it was the fault of no one alive" runs up against this belief system pretty hard. This is why the 2008 National Apology to the Stolen Generations was so important and not at all an empty gesture.

A lot of white people miss this nuance.
 
arthwollipot said:
Yeah, I thought mentioning this would generate that response.
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You knew that you were making the Australian government look like pandering jackasses, and you did it anyway. Why? What possible virtue did you imagine you were signaling by this? What appreciative audience did you imagine, for this performance of throwing your government under the bus in this way?
 
theprestige said:
You knew that you were making the Australian government look like pandering jackasses, and you did it anyway. Why? What possible virtue did you imagine you were signaling by this? What appreciative audience did you imagine, for this performance of throwing your government under the bus in this way?
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Thus, kind of undermining the idea that what I was doing was actually virtue signalling, hmm?

It's okay, I know that respect for the cultural beliefs and spiritual traditions of long-persecuted minorities isn't high on the agenda of self-righteous atheists. I shared this information in the hope that someone might gain a small amount of understanding of their position, and how and why it is not virtue signalling for Australians to provide Acknowledgement of Country, show the Aboriginal flag, and change the ******* Constitution to ensure that Aboriginal people are represented in the future government of the country that has absorbed them against their will.
 
Imagine if you communicated a message that you considered truthful and helpful, and people called it mere virtue signaling:

https://twitter.com/D4M10N/status/764611224629686272

What would you say in response? I'd say that there is a difference between exemplifying/encouraging virtue and merely signaling virtue, and the difference is whether you're willing to make some sacrifices of time and effort to live out the virtue in question.

Newt Gingrich came down really hard on Bill Clinton for failing to be virtuously monogamous, but was he really in a good position to signal virtue on that issue? I'd say rather not.

Probably the main difference between moral talk and moral grandstanding is one of personal motivation. In the former case, we are trying to discover what is right or encourage righteous behavior generally, in the latter case we are concerned primarily with being seen as righteous.
 
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theprestige said:
It's certainly up to each individual to decide if they're going to interpret a given signal as indicating real virtue, or accept it as something better than nothing, or whatever else might be done with a particular attempt to signal virtue.

Personally I'd have little respect for a society that looked at a land ack statement on a grocery receipt and said, "yeah, that's all we needed, just a token gesture, we're all good now." And I'd have no respect at all for a society that held itself to that laughably low standard of virtue, and congratulated itself for doing at least that much.
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Is it really all or nothing? Is someone saying that it's all that's needed and they're all right now, or is it perhaps possible that on the way to where one wants to go, it's better to get one thing than nothing? It might, for example, occur to some that making people notice something is a necessary step to take before they do anything. If one of the issues for a marginalized minority is to gain some recognition and respect, then a gesture that does even a little bit of this is not nothing.
 
angrysoba said:
Although as the Very Bad Wizards pointed out, land acknowledgements can also sound like ****-talking "Hey, we're on your land. Give it back? No. Look, we'll print it on the supermarket receipts, guys. What more do you want?"
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Uh-oh!

An Indigenous tribe descended from the Native American nation that originally controlled the land in Vermont the Ben & Jerry's headquarters is located on would be interested in taking it back, its chief has said, after the company publicly called for "stolen" lands to be returned.

Don Stevens, chief of the Nulhegan Band of The Coosuk Abenaki Nation—one of four descended from the Abenaki that are recognized in Vermont—told Newsweek it was "always interested in reclaiming the stewardship of our lands," but that the company had yet to approach them.

It comes after the ice cream company was questioned as to when it would give up its Burlington, Vermont, headquarters—which sits on a vast swathe of U.S. territory that was under the auspices of the Abenaki people before colonization.

"The U.S. was founded on stolen Indigenous land," the company said in a statement ahead of Independence Day. "This year, let's commit to returning it."
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Link

I'd totally respect B&J's if they say fair enough and hand it over. Otherwise, it's hard to see it as anything other than virtue signalling.
 
theprestige said:
Personally I'd have little respect for a society that looked at a land ack statement on a grocery receipt and said, "yeah, that's all we needed, just a token gesture, we're all good now." And I'd have no respect at all for a society that held itself to that laughably low standard of virtue, and congratulated itself for doing at least that much.
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I can respect that point of view. Advocacy isn't as good as sacrifice. But I wouldn't accept being chastised for it by someone who is against even that much and wants to say it's not their problem at all.

Please note I am not directing this at you in particular. I don't know you well enough to say.
 
angrysoba said:
Uh-oh!



Link

I'd totally respect B&J's if they say fair enough and hand it over. Otherwise, it's hard to see it as anything other than virtue signalling.
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Luxury beliefs are all about performance for high social status at little to no cost. B&J gonna go silent.
 
The most tiresome "lefty" virtue signaling, at least in my experience, doesn't come from actual lefties but from do-nothing centrist liberals who hope that if they say enough magic words it will distract from the fact that they aren't using their real power to advance any liberal/progressive policies.

I'm reminded of the House members taking a knee with a kente cloth draped over their shoulders as a response to the groundswell of anti-police protests in this country, only for them to continue on the status quo of making sure every podunk police department in the US is fully kitted out with ED-209s.

Virtue signaling is often the alternative to taking real, material action, either because the people have little or no power (the bulk of the population), or by those who can take action but would prefer not to while still saving face.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
The most tiresome "lefty" virtue signaling, at least in my experience, doesn't come from actual lefties but from do-nothing centrist liberals who hope that if they say enough magic words it will distract from the fact that they aren't using their real power to advance any liberal/progressive policies.

I'm reminded of the House members taking a knee with a kente cloth draped over their shoulders as a response to the groundswell of anti-police protests in this country, only for them to continue on the status quo of making sure every podunk police department in the US is fully kitted out with ED-209s.

Virtue signaling is often the alternative to taking real, material action, either because the people have little or no power (the bulk of the population), or by those who can take action but would prefer not to while still saving face.
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It's like praying for somebody in trouble, they want to be seen to be doing something to help without having to go to the bother of expending any effort.
 
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