LDS

[tsig]

As I



snip

Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption. snip

No offense intended, but you ask a question that those not familiar with the concept of "keys" in the Church are prone to ask (and understandably so). Note the following:

"The President of The LDS Church holds the keys of salvation for all men now living because he is the only one by whose authorization the sealing power of the priesthood can be used to seal men up to salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God." --D&C 132:7

What was that about arrogance?


ETA: ran over by a Slowvehicle, repeatedly.

 

[Pup]

Shall we discuss "arrogance"?

Shall we discuss revelation?

Yes, let's. The concept of revelation is an excellent example of arrogance. If a person claims that answers have been revealed to him that others should believe and follow without question, that seems a good example of arrogance.

If a person claims that he has discovered answers but wants others to double-check them and see if he has made errors or overlooked something, that seems a good example of humility. It's also the scientific method.

 

[Pup]

You want fries with that?​

No, no, clearly the proper translation is "Pull my finger."

 

[kellyb]

Skyrider, thanks for your very honest and clear responses.

Regarding miracles, non-theists who believe in things like alien abductions (particularly ones who believe that they themselves have been abducted, or believe that they themselves are alien hybrids) make similar claims that they really, genuinely seem to believe.
There's also various types of repeated "ghost" sightings. I seemed to see them from time to time as a kid. In retrospect, I think I probably embellished memories over time. Memory can be a quirky thing like that.
As a pentecostal Christian later in life, I saw some "miracles", too. But I never saw anything like this.

I'm pretty sure a combination of confirmation bias, memory embellishment, emotional and cognitive contagion, and maybe a hint of something like group/mass hysteria can explain these things.

Do you think it's possible (not likely, just at least remotely possible) that there's a non-supernatural explanation?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Some background information about me will be helpful. I was "born under the covenant" (parents had been married in the temple). I was baptized a member of the LDS Church at age 8, and I received the Aaronic Priesthood at age 12 and subsequently became a deacon, teacher, and priest. I received the Melchizedek Priesthood at age 18, whereupon I was ordained an elder, and--years later--a high priest. I didn't serve a mission, but I have held many offices, including a member of a bishopric and a high council. My wife and I have sent our three sons on missions.

This actually does help to explain your reluctance to critically examine the evidence of Joseph Smith's fraud.

I am well acquainted with problems in LDS historicity, having read extensively in anti-LDS literature--from the illegal sacking of the Nauvoo Expositor to the current claims that Joseph Smith's BA is a fraud based on an analysis of some recovered papyrus he used in the claimed translation that makes no mention whatever of Abraham. The critics posit that circumstance casts doubt on the authenticity of the BoM itself and of Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet.

Is all scholarship on the ancient Egyptian written language "anti-LDS literature"? The papyri not only make no mention of Abraham, they have absolutely nothing to do with what Joseph Smith calimed that they said. How can this not cast doubt on Smith's claim to be a prophet, and therefor his other works as well. Given the complete failure of the Book Of Mormon to conform to solid archaeological and genetic evidence, how is this not a serious blow to Joseph Smith's claims?

I think many LDS are disturbed by the BA development, as well as by DNA findings involving "Lamanites." You (and others) seek a direct, forthright answer from me re. the BA. My answer is simply this: I don't know.

But you do know. The evidence of the fraud of the Book Of Abraham is right in front of you. The failure of the Book Of Mormon in the face of archaeology and genetic genealogy is staring you in the face.

To my knowledge, the Church has not issued a statement re. the BA, and I am not inclined to second-guess the Church.

Maybe you should be.

You may think my answer is a dodge; it is not. Having spent a long lifetime in the Church, and having witnessed the power of the priesthood to work modern-day miracles, I will remain a faithful, obedient member. You will consider that irrational in light of evidence that has surfaced. But you haven't lived the life I have lived; you haven't had the spiritual experiences I have had; you haven't seen the power of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to change lives in the way I have.

Lots of people from most every religion are convinced that they've experienced miracles. Lots of people are convinced that they've been abducted by UFOs, seen ghosts, have psychic powers etcetera.

Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.

I would too, if I could find anyone who actually thinks that.

Finally, I have faith that it's possible for men and women of goodwill to disagree without being disagreeable. Some of the things said about the Church, its leaders, and its members on this forum are beyond the pale and have no place in civil discourse.

Like what, that Joseph Smith was a fraud? The evidence of his fraud is overwhelming. I'm sorry if stating this causes you offense, but it doesn't alter the fact.

 

[Craig4]

snip

I am well acquainted with problems in LDS historicity, having read extensively in anti-LDS literature--from the illegal sacking of the Nauvoo Expositor to the current claims that Joseph Smith's BA is a fraud based on an analysis of some recovered papyrus he used in the claimed translation that makes no mention whatever of Abraham. The critics posit that circumstance casts doubt on the authenticity of the BoM itself and of Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet.

I think many LDS are disturbed by the BA development, as well as by DNA findings involving "Lamanites." You (and others) seek a direct, forthright answer from me re. the BA. My answer is simply this: I don't know. To my knowledge, the Church has not issued a statement re. the BA, and I am not inclined to second-guess the Church.

snip

Why do you need the Mormon Church to make a statement? As the BoA is a fraud and there for the BoM is certainly a fraud, then what value could a statement from the Mormon Church have?

 

[showmevegas]

Let us discuss something that has not happened. Have been warned about it many times....thus it has yet to pass Ok.... pass the brainwash

Shall we discuss revelation?

 

[Janadele]

Shall we discuss revelation?

Please do

 

[Janadele]

.....

 

[Akhenaten]

True.

Just because you happen to believe in the same nonsensical fairytale as some other bleevers doesn't make it true, you know.

Although, now that I think about it, you probably don't know that.

 

[joobz]

True.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

So you believe that the leaders of the lds church, who originally claimed that blacks were cursed, have a special connection to god and his teachings?

If so, why were they so wrong about racism?
Why did smith fabricate false translations of Egyptian writings?

 

[Akhenaten]

Why did smith fabricate false translations of Egyptian writings?

I'm sure it had something to do with carrying rocks around in his hat.

Couldn't be good for you.

 

[Janadele]

joobz... Your lack of understanding or knowledge of revelation from God to His Prophets does not equate to there being error, there has been none.

 

[joobz]

joobz... Your lack of understanding or knowledge of revelation from God to His Prophets does not equate to there being error, there has been none.

please correct my lack of understanding and knowledge.

So do you believe black people are cursed?
Were the prophets wrong, or did god change his mind?

 

[Janadele]

My previous posts in this thread have already addressed these questions.

 

[deaman]

As I noted in an earlier post, two previous responses to FZ went "poof," for which I received a warning for scrambling words in one of the posts. All I was trying to do was to retrieve at least one of my posts.

Some background information about me will be helpful. I was "born under the covenant" (parents had been married in the temple). I was baptized a member of the LDS Church at age 8, and I received the Aaronic Priesthood at age 12 and subsequently became a deacon, teacher, and priest. I received the Melchizedek Priesthood at age 18, whereupon I was ordained an elder, and--years later--a high priest. I didn't serve a mission, but I have held many offices, including a member of a bishopric and a high council. My wife and I have sent our three sons on missions.

I am well acquainted with problems in LDS historicity, having read extensively in anti-LDS literature--from the illegal sacking of the Nauvoo Expositor to the current claims that Joseph Smith's BA is a fraud based on an analysis of some recovered papyrus he used in the claimed translation that makes no mention whatever of Abraham. The critics posit that circumstance casts doubt on the authenticity of the BoM itself and of Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet.

I think many LDS are disturbed by the BA development, as well as by DNA findings involving "Lamanites." You (and others) seek a direct, forthright answer from me re. the BA. My answer is simply this: I don't know. To my knowledge, the Church has not issued a statement re. the BA, and I am not inclined to second-guess the Church.

You may think my answer is a dodge; it is not. Having spent a long lifetime in the Church, and having witnessed the power of the priesthood to work modern-day miracles, I will remain a faithful, obedient member. You will consider that irrational in light of evidence that has surfaced. But you haven't lived the life I have lived; you haven't had the spiritual experiences I have had; you haven't seen the power of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to change lives in the way I have.

Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.

Finally, I have faith that it's possible for men and women of goodwill to disagree without being disagreeable. Some of the things said about the Church, its leaders, and its members on this forum are beyond the pale and have no place in civil discourse.

So, there you have it. Make of it what you will.

I totally appreciate your "I don't know" answer, which I consider to be an "honest" answer.

I was a convert to the church, as was my wife. The priesthoods were confered upon me. I was sealed in the temple, etc. My wife still believes in God. I do not.

Please describe the miracles you saw, to which attribute the power of the priesthood.

I am sure you are aware "many things" are capable of changing a persons life, for the better.

I do not know how you came to the conclusion that "many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything". Can you tell me which person in this conversation stated this? It is an absurdity.

You have choosen a way for your life to be explained. Nothing strange about that. Everybody I know has their explanation for things. I, myself, find the lds and most religious viewpoints, to be sorely wanting, in a realistic way. Many of the ideas, just do not jibe with reality.

 

[Akhenaten]

joobz... Your lack of understanding or knowledge of revelation from God to His Prophets does not equate to there being error, there has been none.

What does equate to an error is the willfully mistaken idea that the drivel in the Book of Abraham is anything other than a complete crock perpetrated by a known con man to gull the gullible.

 

[Akhenaten]

My previous posts in this thread have already addressed these questions.

Links or it didn't happen.

 

[joobz]

My previous posts in this thread have already addressed these questions.

Please share with me these posts. I have yet to see a post of yours which answers these questions.

 

[kerikiwi]

My previous posts in this thread have already addressed these questions.

You think your posts have addressed those questions, but since you are the only one who thinks that, it might be a good idea to consider the possibility that they did not, in fact, address the questions, and that you are mistaken