Holocaust

[SDC]

One thing that always baffles me is that holocaust deniers, especially, seem to avoid religiously the Polish testimonies about the holocaust. This includes non-Jewish Poles who were witnesses, including translated into English (Borowski, "This Way for the Gas," or Nalkowska, "Medallions," to include a couple of collections of short pieces published in cheap Penguin eds.), or even Polish-language sources, whether translated or not, whether by Jews or not (I am reading Vogler's "Wstep do fizjologji strachu," recently translated/ published as "Introduction to the Physiology of Fear," I think. That's the exact translation, anyhow). Approximately half of the Jews killed were Polish citizens; another couple of million of non-Jewish Poles died in the war due to German action, military or operations against the civilian population. The main extermination camps were all in occupied Poland as well, and most of the Western European Jews (France, Low Countries) were deported and killed there.

Frankly speaking, I assume this failure to pay attention to Polish sources is a transfer of anti-Polish prejudice. Reading deniers, one would think that there was no such place as Poland. Here is a question for German readers: are Polish holocaust testimonies being translated or read in Germany? (I honestly don't believe many non-Poles learn Polish. I only learned because I'm a language nut and had already studied Russian, which is closely related.)

 

[ddt]

It mentions leaders of the NSDAP were celebrating the anniversary of the Hitler-Putsch in Munich and the article written by a contemporary witness, a journalist living in Berlin, says the directive for the pogrom came from Göbbels,

I found a couple of other sites with detailed accounts. HolocaustResearchProject mentions the dinner Hitler had with the Nazi-top and that he left; however, before Hitler left, he briefly conferred with Goebbels:

Upon receiving the news, Hitler conferred in private with Joseph Goebbels, and then left the dinner party without giving his planned speech. Goebbels immediately took the floor in his stead and after announcing the death of Vom Rath, (which he of course blamed on a Pan-Jewish conspiracy), he went on to say that anti-Jewish demonstrations (pogroms) although not organized by the Nazi Party "would not be hampered."

While Goebbels made the case for the death of Vom Rath as the catalyst for the pogrom, plans were already in place, and orders given to unleash terror on the streets:

and then goes on to quote a directive from the previous day.

Holocaust-History also mentions Hitler leaving the dinner party and going to his hotel room:

The timeline of events that night supports the centrality of the Nazi regime’s and Hitler’s active role in the pogrom. Hitler’s actual role in the events is shrouded in shadows, lack of primary documentation, and the contradictory self-serving statements made later by those who had been around him. However, some things can be safely asserted. After slipping out of the dinner meeting and foregoing his usual speech, Hitler returned to his hotel room, where he was most likely kept informed of the events as they progressed.

and then cites various instructions given by Müller, Heydrich and Hess to local authorities, and concludes

It is unthinkable that these men would have transmitted these instructions without authorization from Hitler.

From this, it seems that the absence of Hitler was more one of not being particularly interested in the detailed planning than that he didn't know about what happened.

The use of, or that it was a majority of SA-men alone and Göbbels inciting them to do so does not mean to me it was state sponsored; with the aforementioned outcome described by me I'd rather say it was state sanctioned, but not actively supported. Hm, tough one.

From these sources, I conclude that it wasn't just Goebbels and a couple of fanatical Gauleiter and SA-men who instigated it, but the whole state apparatus was involved in the planning, with some "plausible deniability" built-in to not make it look like that.

ddt, know where I could listen to speeches by Göbbels; preferrably the one before the 9th/10th?

I found this site with a lot of Goebbels speeches transcribed and translated in English. It doesn't have the one you ask for, but then it wasn't a public (radio) speech but only delivered in private for a (small) circle of top-Nazis (small in comparison to the whole population; I gather that at least all Gauleiter were present, so the dinner party must have run into the tens of people present).

PS. I notice you spell Goebbels as Göbbels. I know both are equivalent in German, but nearly all source use the 'oe' spelling. Do you know why?

ETA. In the hands of Holocaust deniers, questions like "did Hitler authorize X" are just the prelude to trying to deny that X happened. Think of Irving's quest to find an instruction from Hitler himself for the Endlösung. So, while your question, mrbaracuda, as to who ordered what during the Reichskristallnacht, is interesting, I should also give out the warning: Feind hört mit!

 

[Childlike Empress]

PS. I notice you spell Goebbels as Göbbels. I know both are equivalent in German, but nearly all source use the 'oe' spelling. Do you know why?

Goebbels was from Rheydt, today part of Mönchengladbach, ~15 km away from the dutch border. In that region, Niederrhein, it's not unusual that names of people and cities are spelled without Umlaut. Think of Uerdingen, Moers, Kevelaer, Voerde etc.

 

[drkitten]

the article written by a contemporary witness, a journalist living in Berlin, says the directive for the pogrom came from Göbbels, so it seems it supports my notion and comes down to the definition of state (sponsored) and whether or not Göbbels had a run for power by initiating the pogrom without the others (Hitler, Göring, Himmler) agreeing or even knowing.

Except that Goebbels' diaries specificalliy mention Hitler's support for his actions. No credible historian suggests that Goebbels acted in this instance without Hitler's direct support, even if there's not a written order. And there is a written order, originating from Hitler, that the police are not supposed to interfere except in cases of arson (where Aryan-owned property might be at risk).

The use of, or that it was a majority of SA-men alone and Göbbels inciting them to do so does not mean to me it was state sponsored;

Why do you assume Goebbels was acting without the knowledge and consent of Hitler?

 

[drkitten]

PS. I notice you spell Goebbels as Göbbels. I know both are equivalent in German, but nearly all source use the 'oe' spelling. Do you know why?

Well, in my cases, it's because my keyboard lacks an o-umlaut key.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Well, in my cases, it's because my keyboard lacks an o-umlaut key.

In this case you don't have to worry - Goebbels was his real name.

 

[mrbaracuda]

From these sources, I conclude that it wasn't just Goebbels and a couple of fanatical Gauleiter and SA-men who instigated it, but the whole state apparatus was involved in the planning, with some "plausible deniability" built-in to not make it look like that.

Let's recap the situation. Grynszpan shoots vom Rath on the 8th, who dies two days later. On the 8th according to your 2nd link Goebbels orders news papers to spread the news and first small riots ensue. On the evening of the 9th news that vom Rath died reach Hitler and Goebbels, who are celebrating the Putsch's anniversary, Hitler leaves early but agrees with Goebbels that no action against rioters should be taken in the future in case more riots break out. Goebbels then talks to the Gauleiters and others who were present at the celebration and most likely the Gauleiters relay the information to SA-men in their Gaus.

In the book by Hilberg it says that Himmler, who is in a meeting, receives word from his chief of staff Wolff at about 11:15 PM and Himmler arrives at his office at around 1:00 PM on the night of the riots. Himmler writes down his feelings about the riots. Although he mildly condemns Goebbels' attitude and calls this an airheaded attitude, he's indifferent to the riots themselves but dispatches orders to SS and police to protect 'Aryan property' and to get 20.000 Jews for the concentration camps. Before calling Goebbels' attitude 'airheaded', he also mentions he's been noticing an aspiration in Goebbels to assume more power. The book mentions a couple of pages earlier that the NSDAP itself, except for the SS, didn't serve any important functions regarding the "Jewish question" anymore, and especially not the SA's brownshirts and the Ministry of Propaganda. Eventually Himmler notes that when he telephoned with the 'Führer', he had the impression Hitler didn't know about the situation/procedure.

The Minister for Economic Affairs Funk asks Goebbels on the telephone whether or not Goebbels is crazy and that he will stop working if the mess does not cease after mentioning the bad foreign relations.

Göring doesn't know anything about the riots until he arrives in Berlin on the 10th, after travelling by train. He immediately contacts Hitler after knowing about what took place while he was on his way to Berlin and complains about the riots and Goebbels. He also calls a meeting on the same day, where Goebbels, Hitler and others are present. Hitler apologizes mildly to Göring for Goebbels, but says this kind of action shouldn't repeat itself. In this meeting, Goebbels, to Göring's surprise, proposes the 1 billion RM the Jews should pay.

The book goes on with Göring complaining more and eventually that Goebbels was 'beaten', his hopes were shattered, his lust for power not settled and that from now on, in the book, the reader won't hear much more about Goebbels in regards to the Holocaust.

I found this site with a lot of Goebbels speeches transcribed and translated in English.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

PS. I notice you spell Goebbels as Göbbels. I know both are equivalent in German, but nearly all source use the 'oe' spelling. Do you know why?

The version with ö was me being lazy. Well, that and the fact I don't see the name itself so often. When you just hear it a lot and remember it from hearing you just do the Umlaut I guess.

ETA. In the hands of Holocaust deniers, questions like "did Hitler authorize X" are just the prelude to trying to deny that X happened. Think of Irving's quest to find an instruction from Hitler himself for the Endlösung. So, while your question, mrbaracuda, as to who ordered what during the Reichskristallnacht, is interesting, I should also give out the warning: Feind hört mit!

While having spend only very little time on Irving, I am surprised you'd bring this up. It's not a matter of "did Hitler authorize X" to deny that X happened, but whether or not it was state sponsored, and I still don't think it was state sponsored but a power grab by Goebbels after Hitler mentioning the rage of the people should freely flow. I think state sanctioned (in the process and afterwards) is more appropriate to use in this context than state sponsored.

From these sources, I conclude that it wasn't just Goebbels and a couple of fanatical Gauleiter and SA-men who instigated it, but the whole state apparatus was involved in the planning, with some "plausible deniability" built-in to not make it look like that.

I find it rather strange to speak of a state sponsored action when the head of police and Ministry of the Interior and the heads of Economics (Göring, Himmler and Funk; Hitler aside, I also think he at least expected the 'Volkszorn' to come) don't know about an event of this size. Thus, speaking of the 'whole state apparatus' being involed is something I don't agree with and I think it was just that - a power grab by Goebbels, with Hitler uttering words he didn't expect to cause an event of this magnitude, while eventually agreeing. Everyone, Himmler, Göbbels, Hilter and Funk, agreed with the outburst of what they called 'Volkszorn', even if instigated by SA-men, but they had worked hard (strange to write this in this context ) to solve the 'Jewish question' in a controllable and more legal way.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Except that Goebbels' diaries specificalliy mention Hitler's support for his actions.

I don't know how much you can trust Goebbels' diaries.

And there is a written order, originating from Hitler, that the police are not supposed to interfere except in cases of arson (where Aryan-owned property might be at risk).

Dating?

No credible historian suggests that Goebbels acted in this instance without Hitler's direct support, even if there's not a written order.

Why do you assume Goebbels was acting without the knowledge and consent of Hitler?

I am not, but I think Hitler was not expecting something of this magnitude and still favoured a controllable solution while at the same time having sympathy for an 'eruption of the people'.

 

[Zenskeptical]

The only problem I have with Holocaust Literature is Night.

The book should not be forced upon all 10th grade english students. It has nor ever will contribute anything to do with the english language or literature. I don't get why they just don't make people read it in a history class?

 

[Childlike Empress]

mrbaracuda, if you google for goebbels reden und aufsätze you'll find some extensive compilations hosted mostly on neo-nazi sites. While it's quite an interesting and gruesome read, unfortunately the documents i've collected start at new years eve 1939.

 

[mrbaracuda]

I forgot to mention how strange it was to read the following, coming from a The Netherlandserian D):

I should also give out the warning: Feind hört mit!

Der Feind kann mich doch mal. Ist ja nicht so, als hätte Hitler bis auf den wirtschaftlichen Aspekt gerade ein großes Problem mit der Reichskristallnacht gehabt.

 

[drkitten]

I don't know how much you can trust Goebbels' diaries.

Um,.... yeah.

Dating?

From the night of Krystallnacht, about an hour or so into it (IIRC). Hitler specifically ordered the police to be "withdrawn" and not to interfere. This is one of the major points that came up at the Irving trial, so if you want to see the full documentary chain, you can either check out the transcripts or the summarized expert report under the title "Lying about Hitler."

I am not, but I think Hitler was not expecting something of this magnitude

Well, there's no evidence to support this.

and still favoured a controllable solution

What does "controllable solution" mean in this context? Hitler deliberately acted to foster the pogram against Jews, believing (correctly) that it wouldn't result in the destruction of universe or anything like that. In that sense, he created a "controllable solution"; the only people killed and property damaged, by and large, were Jewish. But that has nothing to do with the question of whether or not the pogram itself was state-sponsored.

while at the same time having sympathy for an 'eruption of the people'.

An "eruption" that the state-operated media was at pains to create and the state-operated law enforcement was at pains to worsen? Sounds pretty state-sponsored to me.


The fact that Goebbels took this action as part of his duties as minister of propaganda alone makes it state-sponsored, even if he did it without Hitler's direct order. (That's part of how governments have to work; lower-level functionaries are part of the state, too.) Hitler's actions in support of the pogram are sufficient to demonstrate that it was supported at the very highest level.

Let me turn it around, then. What would it take to prove to you that Krystallnacht was indeed state-sponsored? I fear we're wandering down the "oh, sure, there's an attested order over Hitler's signature, but I believe, totally without reason, that it was a post-war Israeli forgery" path of Holocaust denial.

 

[Hawthorne]

Saints and Villians by Denise Giardina is a good one...about the life of Deitrich Bonhoeffer's and his role in the assisination attempt on Hitler. Bonhoeffer was a minister who spoke out against Hitler and was executed for it.

 

[mrbaracuda]

What does "controllable solution" mean in this context?

Not having 'Aryan property' damaged by a wild and violent mob.

 

[SDC]

Sometimes one reads, or hears, a person saying, "Well, I would have resisted! I would have refused to be shot so quietly!" I just finished reading a story (probably based on personal experience) from Henryk Vogler's "Introduction to the Physiology of Fear" (in the Polish). "Czary w miasteczku" (Spells in the Small town), about the last night of a Jewish family waiting for murder or deportation the next day by the Germans. Viewpoint character is a young or youngish man, with a pregnant wife, and also included are the sickly mother, the strong minded mother in law, children... He thinks about flight, yes, but there is nowhere to run; perhaps he would survive (as Vogler did), but no one else in his family would -- old people, children, pregnant women would be killed without a second thought for potential usefulness. The town is surrounded by the German forces plus the Polish police. The mother in law says that about the best thing to do is to try and stay together and, at least, die as a family, and take some small comfort in the family relations.

Brutal story. Bitter tears. No one should assume that they would behave differently. Vogler himself survived seeing his family taken away (I believe to Belzec, one of the actual death camps, with several hundred thousand killed in 1942-43), and survived the labor camps, including even digging his own grave at one point -- the execution was stopped at the last moment because someone needed a work gang.

 

[SimonD]

National Socialism and the Religion of Nature by Robert A. Pois. Why the holocasut was inevitable in a Nazis State

The Book Theif By Markus Zusak. While it's a book based on true events, it is a good read on how "normal" people react to the States persecution of a people

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

One thing that always baffles me is that holocaust deniers, especially, seem to avoid religiously the Polish testimonies about the holocaust. This includes non-Jewish Poles who were witnesses, including translated into English (Borowski, "This Way for the Gas," or Nalkowska, "Medallions," to include a couple of collections of short pieces published in cheap Penguin eds.), or even Polish-language sources, whether translated or not, whether by Jews or not (I am reading Vogler's "Wstep do fizjologji strachu," recently translated/ published as "Introduction to the Physiology of Fear," I think. That's the exact translation, anyhow). Approximately half of the Jews killed were Polish citizens; another couple of million of non-Jewish Poles died in the war due to German action, military or operations against the civilian population. The main extermination camps were all in occupied Poland as well, and most of the Western European Jews (France, Low Countries) were deported and killed there.

Frankly speaking, I assume this failure to pay attention to Polish sources is a transfer of anti-Polish prejudice. Reading deniers, one would think that there was no such place as Poland. Here is a question for German readers: are Polish holocaust testimonies being translated or read in Germany? (I honestly don't believe many non-Poles learn Polish. I only learned because I'm a language nut and had already studied Russian, which is closely related.)

Zgadzam sie z panem w stu procentach. Kretyni co rozpowszechniaja te bzdury zupelnie zapominaja o tym ze oprocz Zydow, Polacy i ludzie o wielu innych narodowosciach takze cierpieli mocno z rak Hitlerowcow podczac okupacji.

Moj wlasny pradziadek byl zabity przez Niemcow a moja babcia i prababcia ledwo co przezyly Zaglade. Moja babcia do dzisiejszego dnia nienawidzi o tym rozmawiac; dopiero w tym roku znalazlam wywiad ktory zrobila dla amerykanskiej fundacjii i dokumenty o jej przezyciach. Po wielu latach, nareszcie sie dowiedzialam prawde o historii mojej rodziny.

Przeciez moja babcia zobaczyla Majdanek i Sztuthof na wlasne oczy i zdala swoje relacje. Malo to, same obozy istnieja do tego dnia. Ale ci warjaci nie uwierzyliby w oczywista prawde gdyby sam Hitler sie przyznal.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Hm, in the Polish you say, SDC. Hm, in the Polish you write, EeneyMinnieMoe. Maybe one of you wants to tell me what this one is about or can translate it roughly?



I know about 'Hava Nagila', but the rest a German can not comprehend.
You can find the lyrics written down for examplehere at the bottom.

 

[SDC]

MrB, I'm not going to translate Henryk Vogler's book or even the story. He's been translated into English and perhaps German, I suggest you look it up. His memoirs are well known in the field though published well after the war. Book is "Introduction to the Physiology of Fear," in English (the title is an exact translation of the Polish, for once), and the story I was referring to is "Czary w Miasteczku," which is pretty much "(Magical) Spells (or Charms) in the Small Town." Book is only 100-odd pages, story is 10-15.

Eeney etc is simply saying that he thinks I'm correct (I blush) and that members of his family were killed or barely survived the war. Grandmother saw Majdanek camp and Sztuthof (that's the Polish spelling, I forget the German), and provided story to an American foundation. (Doesn't say which.) Says that many non-Jews were killed as well, which is certainly true. I gather Eeney's family is Polish, not Jewish.

I don't understand the Hava Nagila reference, which is a Hebrew song. I don't use YouTube plugins because heaven only knows what might end up on my laptop, so I don't know what you meant to convey.

ETA: my mistake. It was translated into English as "Lessons in Fear," which is neither exact, nor as powerful as the original. So it goes. Amazon.de only lists an English translation, no German.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Urm, I am talking about the song I linked to in that youtube-box. Silly you! Pay more attention!

I am requesting a rough translation of this: http://www.rootwater.pl/index.php?mod=lyrics&nr=2 at the bottom. Last song.

If you don't mind.