Franko's "Universe as a Computer Program" Debunked

[evildave]

My current avatar is the only one that Ive used actually

besides, I dont want to cause a fight among the ladies by using my face as an avatar muhaha!

deary me

I seem to recall you just had the spot before you added the batman wings, more recently.

Yes, I quite agree there could be humanitarian reasons for not posting your own likeness. I'm sure we wouldn't want them all fighting at the stampede for the nearest exit. There might be another brawl for who gets to vomit in the restroom, instead of in public as well.

Ha, I only kid. I'm sure you have an absolutely mediocre face in every way.

 

[wraith]

Then you need to read your Lexicon again. You obviously are ignoring large portions of Franko's teaching.

Perhaps you can give my a link that supports your claim?

You say information enters the system and makes it more complex. Logical Deisim says things always move from higher complexity to lower complexity. I agree with that complexity increases, but this is directly in conflict with LDeism. Careful, Wraith. You are in grave danger of being excommunicated, and having your graviton rerouted towards the abyss.

How is it in directly conflict with LD?

 

[wraith]

I seem to recall you just had the spot before you added the batman wings, more recently.

Youre recollection is wrong...the only addition made to the original was the word "Fatum".

Yes, I quite agree there could be humanitarian reasons for not posting your own likeness. I'm sure we wouldn't want them all fighting at the stampede for the nearest exit. There might be another brawl for who gets to vomit in the restroom, instead of in public as well.

That must have taken you 5 minutes to think that one up

Ha, I only kid. I'm sure you have an absolutely mediocre face in every way.

LOL....whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[MRC_Hans]

If you were going back in time, then this is the case.
How can you not obtain new information if youre moving forward in time?

You can collect information, but no new information can be added to a deterministic system, because then it stops being deterministic.

?
Only the initial state existed?
As in, there is a "no-time" period at this point?

The initial state is what everything is built on. Thus, in determinism, what was not in the initial state, does not exist (information-wise)


How can information not be obtained if youre moving forward in time?

Again it might be concentrated, but it cannot be created, where should it come from?

I am not that familiar with the mandlebrot set.
Does being more fragmented mean "not more complex" according to you?

If you turn a house into rubble, is it more or less complicated?

Now, Franko has referred to the M set dozens of times. So now I need to ask: Franko has claimed that he is you. Will you confirm or deny this? Franko's credibility index is not exactly high, but since Wraith has not protested, I assumed that claim to be true. Now, here's a catch for you: If you deny being same person as Franko, then he is a liar. If you confirm it, then you are pretending not to know what you have earlier pretended to know. Which is it?



So we evolve because of free-will?

Things evolve because the Universe is not deterministic; this allows new information to be created. Free will has nothing directly to do with this, but once we accept a non-deterministic Universe, free will becomes a parsimonous explanation to observed data.

 

[evildave]

LOL....whatever helps you sleep at night

Well, I could imagine some pretty homely faces for you in my nightmares. But I usually only dream entertaining things.

 

[wraith]

You can collect information, but no new information can be added to a deterministic system, because then it stops being deterministic.

You can collect information?
Yes, you cant collect new information?

The initial state is what everything is built on. Thus, in determinism, what was not in the initial state, does not exist (information-wise)

?
Im not saying that this universe did not have a beginning

Again it might be concentrated, but it cannot be created, where should it come from?

What do you mean by creating information?

If you turn a house into rubble, is it more or less complicated?

define complicated
it could be said to be more or less complicated...depending on how you look at it

Now, Franko has referred to the M set dozens of times. So now I need to ask: Franko has claimed that he is you. Will you confirm or deny this? Franko's credibility index is not exactly high, but since Wraith has not protested, I assumed that claim to be true. Now, here's a catch for you: If you deny being same person as Franko, then he is a liar. If you confirm it, then you are pretending not to know what you have earlier pretended to know. Which is it?

whats that?

Things evolve because the Universe is not deterministic; this allows new information to be created.

So things evolve out of free-will?
What do you mean by new information being created?

Free will has nothing directly to do with this, but once we accept a non-deterministic Universe, free will becomes a parsimonous explanation to observed data.

How?

 

[MRC_Hans]

You can collect information?
Yes, you cant collect new information?

There is no new information, in determinsm, all information is determined by the inintial state

?
Im not saying that this universe did not have a beginning

Yes "you" did. At least thats a dogma of LD, the way somebody named Franko explains it. According to LD time did not have a beginning.

What do you mean by creating information?

Adding information not previously existing (what else?).

define complicated
it could be said to be more or less complicated...depending on how you look at it

My difinitions are ALWAYS dictionary definitions. Actually, the rubble of a house could be both more or less complicated than the house. It would depend on how much information about the original house was retained. I was thinking of REAL rubble, unrecognizable fragments. But it was not the best metaphor I ever made.

whats that?

Just answer the question. Are there any words you dont understand?

So things evolve out of free-will?

One more time: No.

What do you mean by new information being created?

Simplest example: A random function (remember, according to Franko/Wraith determinism, nothing is truly random). But a truly random function will create new information; before it was invoked, the outcome was unknown, afterwards, it is known.


How?

Free will is parsimonious because it skips the middle man, or to be precise, the top man.

 

[Tricky]

Perhaps you can give my a link that supports your claim?


How is it in directly conflict with LD?

I'm surprised, wraith. Don't you read the LD notes? Your teacher has explained the rule of diminishing complexity many times. You must not be a very fast graviton.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

In the same way that YOU are more conscious and complex than CAR, TLOP is more conscious and complex than YOU.

 

[Franko]

Q-Source:

Time is a creation of the Big Bang. Time exists within the Universe.
Before the BB, there was no time as you perceive it.

So how long did the Timeless period before the Big Bang last? Did it last for a long long time, or are you claiming that there was absolutely NOTHING, and then suddenly and magically the universe appeared from the void?

How about TLOP? Did the Laws of physics just spring from the Abyss fully formed?

Why is it that you’re a-Theism is suddenly sounding a lot like the Egyptian creation myth?

And who created this consciousness?
Did it come out of nothing?
Was there something before the PS?

The Progenitor Solipsist was Time. I realize that you believe Time is also a non-conscious entity, but you are incorrect. All consciousness is a manifestation of Time. We do not (can not) exist without Time, and Time cannot exist without us.

Gravitons are made out of Time.

 

[evildave]

The Progenitor Solipsist was Time. I realize that you believe Time is also a non-conscious entity, but you are incorrect. All consciousness is a manifestation of Time. We do not (can not) exist without Time, and Time cannot exist without us.

Gravitons are made out of Time.

LOL!

 

[wraith]

There is no new information, in determinsm, all information is determined by the inintial state

I dont see how no new information can enter
The universe is determined by that initial state and so you have the result of "now" because of cause and effect...

Yes "you" did. At least thats a dogma of LD, the way somebody named Franko explains it. According to LD time did not have a beginning.

ahhh I said "this universe"
this universe had a beginning
Time existed before this

wraith: So things evolve out of free-will?

Hans: One more time: No.

so it's determined?

Simplest example: A random function (remember, according to Franko/Wraith determinism, nothing is truly random). But a truly random function will create new information; before it was invoked, the outcome was unknown, afterwards, it is known.

whats an example?

 

[wraith]

I'm surprised, wraith. Don't you read the LD notes? Your teacher has explained the rule of diminishing complexity many times. You must not be a very fast graviton.

That doesnt conflict with anything that I have said

 

[wraith]

LOL!

Cant handle it davey boy?
hahaa

 

[MRC_Hans]

I realize this is a waste of time....

I dont see how no new information can enter
The universe is determined by that initial state and so you have the result of "now" because of cause and effect...

Look up Determinism. If everything is caused by the previous state, where does new information come from? -- Now answer the question, before asking a new one.

ahhh I said "this universe"
this universe had a beginning
Time existed before this

So the universe appeared magically in your cosmology too?

so it's determined?

no

whats an example?

Am I to understand you dont know the meaning of the word "example"? I just gave you an example of one
Might I recommend this: www.dictionary.com

Hans

 

[Q-Source]

Franko said:
So the PS is around for a long time. And he is evolving, he is becoming more and more self aware. He understands himself and what he is (Time) better and better. He is perceiving Time better and better over the course of Time. Eventually he comes to the realization that he is alone.

Then I asked:
How could he perceive that he was alone if he had no reference to know that he was alone?
How do you know that something exist if you have NEVER seen it before?

Would you answer this time?

Franko:
So how long did the Timeless period before the Big Bang last? Did it last for a long long time, or are you claiming that there was absolutely NOTHING, and then suddenly and magically the universe appeared from the void?

There was absolutely no TIME before the Big Bang because time was created with this Universe.

I don't know how the BB appeared, but it has already been proved that time had a beginning and will probably have an end.
(See Hawking and Penrose).

 

[Franko]

MRC:
Look up Determinism. If everything is caused by the previous state, where does new information come from? -- Now answer the question, before asking a new one.

You ever seen a fractal? Ever heard of the Mandelbrot set?

Fractals are based on a very simple algorithm, yet they constantly generate a larger, more elaborate pattern.

But if you are really curious as to where new information comes from (how information grows over Time) ask the Elephant about Wolfram.

MRC:
So the universe appeared magically in your cosmology too?

No, not at all. The Logical Goddess makes this universe. It’s only slightly more “magical” then creating a universe for your Dungeons & Dragons game.

-----------------------------------------

The Source:
[The PS …] How could he perceive that he was alone if he had no reference to know that he was alone?

It took him an eternity before he realized he was alone, and then it took him another eternity to figure out how to escape Solipsism.

[Keep in mind, In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of Time (not an “Infinite” period of Time). An Eternity is demarcated by a radical evolutionary improvement; essentially a vastly improved adaptation in the perception of Time. (An increase in self-awareness) ]

Source:
How do you know that something exist if you have NEVER seen it before?

You mean like Atoms … or photons?

What is the intrinsic color of a photon, Source? Suppose we had a big photon – the size of a basketball – what would it look like?

As for “seeing” the PS … there is a piece of him inside your head.

There was absolutely no TIME before the Big Bang because time was created with this Universe.

That’s what the pseudo-materialist will tell you anyway.

Time exist within the Omniverse, and this universe resides within the Omniverse (the Omniverse is the “greater universe” which surrounds this one). Time has existed as long as the Omniverse has existed (as long as a single consciousness (the PS)) has existed.

I don't know how the BB appeared, but it has already been proved that time had a beginning and will probably have an end.
(See Hawking and Penrose).

If by “proof” you mean that Hawking and/or Penrose claimed Time had a beginning and an ending then they “proved it”, but if you mean they actually proved it then I’d say you were very incorrect.

If you doubt this, then try and explain anything to me beyond the context of Time.

Source, you know what the foundation of Logic is? Do you know the One thing that you have to have before you can have Logic?? … It’s Time. Without Time, there is no Logic. Hawking and Penrose and other A-Theists like to talk about “Timeless periods” because when there is no Time (no Logic) you can have any kind of magic you want to happen … happen. And without their “magic” guys like Hawking are nothing but snake oil salesmen. (false prophets)

 

[MRC_Hans]

You ever seen a fractal? Ever heard of the Mandelbrot set?

Fractals are based on a very simple algorithm, yet they constantly generate a larger, more elaborate pattern.

But if you are really curious as to where new information comes from (how information grows over Time) ask the Elephant about Wolfram.

Actually I have studied the M set in quite some detail, and written several Mandelbrot plotters. It is a (fairly) simple formula that can be expressed in a very complex graphic manner, but no matter how many iterations you plot, no new information is added. All information is contained in the initial formula. The Mandelbrot set is a deterministic universe.

I am asking YOU where the new information enters the deterministic universe. Answer the question or admit that you dont know.

Hans

 

[evildave]

Cant handle it davey boy?
hahaa

No, it's funny because it's the stupidest thing I've read in a while.

 

[Franko]

Evildaveyboy: (A-Theist Loser)
No, it's funny because it's the stupidest thing I've read in a while.

See that Wraith? I told you moron-boy never read his own posts.

 

[Franko]

MRC

Actually I have studied the M set in quite some detail, and written several Mandelbrot plotters. It is a (fairly) simple formula that can be expressed in a very complex graphic manner, but no matter how many iterations you plot, no new information is added. All information is contained in the initial formula. The Mandelbrot set is a deterministic universe.

Did Mandelbrot know what the fractal would look like before he plotted it? As you admit, the picture is “very complex”. How can it be “very complex” and yet hold NO NEW INFORMATION? It was a simple formula … and now it is a “very complex graphic” (a Graphic). That sounds like new information being created out of something small and simple.

But at least we both agree that it is deterministic. If only you could explain what Indeterminism means and why you believe our Universe acts “Indeterminstically” then you might be able to shed your image as a mystic.

I am asking YOU where the new information enters the deterministic universe. Answer the question or admit that you dont know.

Every time the fractal gets bigger you have new information (Energy) entering the Universe/Omniverse. Simple algorithm … grows (evolves) over Time. You are use to hearing people pretend that things are more complicated than they are, because it is in their best interest to prevent you from actually understanding what is going on.