Franko's "Universe as a Computer Program" Debunked

[whitefork]

The present is not based on the past?

The past does not exist. If the present is based on it, then the present must not exist either. But the present exists. Therefore the present is not based on the past.

QED

 

[Tricky]

To understand anything of what Franko just said, you need to get the foundation right. That is consciousness and time. Everything else, stems out from here.

So he says. Of course, he never explains how consciousness and time could "magically" pop out of the void. In other words, where does the foundation come from? Can't you see? Every "story" of creation must have a starting point (foundation), beyond which is unknown.

Can you have a "no-time" time period?
What accounts for the transition bewteen "time" and "no-time" periods?

I don't know about a "no-time" period. I explained the concept, but I admit that I don't have enough info to say I think it is correct. However, the question about "transition" is silly. Transition implies the passage of time. Without any concept of time, "transition" is meaningless. I would suggest that when something appeared (perhaps, but not definately the Big Bang), then time started.

Secondly, like spacetime, what about consciousness and time? Conscioustime if you will
Ever catch yourself sleeping?

Yes, what about them? Are you trying to make a point, or just stringing words together? And yes, every time I wake up, I have caught myself sleeping. Why do you ask?

 

[wraith]

The past does not exist. If the present is based on it, then the present must not exist either. But the present exists. Therefore the present is not based on the past.

Thats great whitefork

So the present just pops in willy-nilly?
I take it that the future "JUST HAPPENS"
Random is it?

The presents exists?
What about the past present?
I take it that you dont have any memories or any future plans? The future does not exist aswell right?

 

[wraith]

So he says. Of course, he never explains how consciousness and time could "magically" pop out of the void. In other words, where does the foundation come from? Can't you see? Every "story" of creation must have a starting point (foundation), beyond which is unknown.

Was time created?

I don't know about a "no-time" period. I explained the concept, but I admit that I don't have enough info to say I think it is correct. However, the question about "transition" is silly. Transition implies the passage of time. Without any concept of time, "transition" is meaningless. I would suggest that when something appeared (perhaps, but not definately the Big Bang), then time started.

So why did "no-time" become "time"?

Yes, what about them? Are you trying to make a point, or just stringing words together? And yes, every time I wake up, I have caught myself sleeping. Why do you ask?

You catch yourself sleeping?
So you can actually say "I am sleeping" when youre sleeping?

 

[whitefork]

Beautiful - Wraith claiming that the past exists. Where? When?
How many? Every past moment has exactly the same status? Replicating the existing present all the way back to the beginning of time.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Whats the probability of 2 + 2 equaling 4?

I guess this is just your Turing contender algorithm popping up a default reply.

2+2=4 is irrelevant. We are discussing the present and the past.

It is not difficult to produce practical examples where 2+2 has a probabilistic outcome, but I'm afraid they are beyond your scope. They would require you to understand fractions.

Hans

 

[Tricky]

Was time created?

I honestly don't know. I have no evidence for a creator. How do you propose to gather evidence for something that happened when there was no time? I have said it is a possibility that when there was no matter or energy, there was also no time.

However, you seem to have no problem with consciousness and time being the "foundations". If you can believe these things exist without a creator, why can you not believe that the universe exists without a creator?

So why did "no-time" become "time"?

I don't know. I don't even know if it did. I mention it only as a possibility. You do understand that, right?

You catch yourself sleeping?
So you can actually say "I am sleeping" when youre sleeping?

Actually, I have. I have been in the middle of a dream and realized it was a dream, without waking up. Occasionally, I have even "dreamed I woke up". It is an odd feeling.

However, as you certainly know, the transition from "asleep" to "awake" is usually a gradual one.

-----
Any chance of you commenting on Franko's creation story?

 

[CWL]

[musical interlude]

Time - He's waiting in the wings
He speaks of senseless things
His script is you and me, boy

[/musical interlude]

 

[whitefork]

More music more music more music more music:

From Howard DeVoto:

Time flies
Time crawls
Like an insect
Up and down the walls

The light pours out of me

 

[MRC_Hans]

The deterministic cosmology presupposes that time has not existed always. Determinism claims that the present is derived from the past, in other words, the conditions existing in THIS second are caused by the conditions existing in the previous second (or microsecond, or whatever resolution you prefer). Of course, the conditions of one second ago were created by the conditions two seconds ago, etc. etc. etc. all the way back to the initial state. But if TIME did not start somewhere, there is no initial state, and consequently no basis for the conditions leading to THIS second.

Franko's cosmology tries to get around this by claiming that it took a lot of time (since for some reason he rejects the notion of time starting at some point), but this will not do. Its like those perpetuum mobiles that pretend that if you let water (or steel balls or whatever) run up a very obligue slope, they wont notice they run upwards. You cant be a little bit pregnant, and you cant have SOME determinism.

Hans

 

[evildave]

Whats the probability of 2 + 2 equaling 4?

It's all in how you encode it.
2<SUB>3</sub>+2<SUB>3</sub>=11<SUB>3</sub>
2<SUB>4</sub>+2<SUB>4</sub>=10<SUB>4</sub>

Another possibility is if you have two mirrors, and carelessly toss them into a dumpster, and then carelessly throw in two more mirrors, you will get thousands of little mirrors.

If you are so inclined to wait for the outcome, add two {healthy, intact} male rabbits and two {healthy, intact} female rabbits to an empty field and wait a couple of years. Is it still four rabbits?

Start with two atoms of plutonium-238. Add two more. Oops. One picked this moment to decay. Now you've got three atoms of plutonium-238 and one of uranium-234.

Why is it that some people think that the world is just so cut and dry that a bit of kindergarten arithmetic explains everything for all cases? I suppose it could be that experimentation and verification of assertions takes effort.

 

[wraith]

Beautiful - Wraith claiming that the past exists. Where?

In my head

When?

Just then

How many?

I am aware of my past

Every past moment has exactly the same status?

same status?

Replicating the existing present all the way back to the beginning of time.

How long are you able to stop "present time" without calling lapsed time the past?

 

[wraith]

I honestly don't know. I have no evidence for a creator. How do you propose to gather evidence for something that happened when there was no time? I have said it is a possibility that when there was no matter or energy, there was also no time.

no time?
How is there "no time"?
Can you think of a timeless period?
What about a 4 sided tri?
( you still have to show me this btw )

However, you seem to have no problem with consciousness and time being the "foundations". If you can believe these things exist without a creator, why can you not believe that the universe exists without a creator?

Because it would be magical if this universe didnt have a creator and it would be magical if there was a "no time" time period.

Actually, I have. I have been in the middle of a dream and realized it was a dream, without waking up. Occasionally, I have even "dreamed I woke up". It is an odd feeling.

Ive had that too. However, since you perceived this, you werent really sleeping. I better example is if you can say "I am dead."

However, as you certainly know, the transition from "asleep" to "awake" is usually a gradual one..

Thanks for that

Any chance of you commenting on Franko's creation story?

yeah, it's awesome

 

[wraith]

It's all in how you encode it.
2<SUB>3</sub>+2<SUB>3</sub>=11<SUB>3</sub>
2<SUB>4</sub>+2<SUB>4</sub>=10<SUB>4</sub>

Another possibility is if you have two mirrors, and carelessly toss them into a dumpster, and then carelessly throw in two more mirrors, you will get thousands of little mirrors.

If you are so inclined to wait for the outcome, add two {healthy, intact} male rabbits and two {healthy, intact} female rabbits to an empty field and wait a couple of years. Is it still four rabbits?

Start with two atoms of plutonium-238. Add two more. Oops. One picked this moment to decay. Now you've got three atoms of plutonium-238 and one of uranium-234.

Why is it that some people think that the world is just so cut and dry that a bit of kindergarten arithmetic explains everything for all cases? I suppose it could be that experimentation and verification of assertions takes effort.

dave did you see my "coding"?

2 + 2 = 4

do you see any subscripts there?


by the way, kindergarten maths is very good

 

[Tricky]

no time?
How is there "no time"?

I've explained it to you twice. Time is measured by a sequence of events. If no events occur, then there is no time. Make that three times.

Can you think of a timeless period?

How about when you're waiting for the bell to ring to end class?

Seriously, "timeless period" is an oxymoron. The word 'period' implies a length of time. It is hard to conceive, but if you open your mind to difficult concepts, you can do it.

What about a 4 sided tri?
( you still have to show me this btw )

And you have still not agreed to give me something in return. I promise you, I can deliver. Make it worth my effort.

Because it would be magical if this universe didnt have a creator and it would be magical if there was a "no time" time period.

And yet, you have a creator that doesn't have a creator. Why is that not magical? Is everything that you cannot conceive automatically magical?

Ive had that too. However, since you perceived this, you werent really sleeping. I better example is if you can say "I am dead."

Of course I was asleep. There are various levels of sleep. Remember when you were young, you used to have scary nightmares? That was because you were too inexperienced to tell the difference between dreams and reality. As you grew older, you learned not to be scared by dreams (usually). This has to do with learning to recognize your various levels of consciousness. It is something most adults have learned.

Also you might notice that dream monsters no longer scare you. The things that scare you now are the things that are close to reality, perhaps like nuclear war. The closer your dreams are to reality, the more they affect you.

yeah, it's awesome

LOL. Well, actually I was hoping you might dispute or (in my dreams ) support some of the points I had made. It really does no credit to you if you behave like a "yes man". Let us know what YOU think. Don't act like a sock puppet.

 

[evildave]

dave did you see my "coding"?

2 + 2 = 4

do you see any subscripts there?


by the way, kindergarten maths is very good

It's all in the assumptions. Just because you use a base-10 convention, it doesn't mean anyone else has to.

The 2₁₀ + 2₁₀ = 4₁₀ uses implied 10. And this is only because it's the convention you're used to.

Even the operation of "addition" is an implied meaning. Just because a couple of squiggles on flat lines, a pair of crossed lines, a pair of parallel lines and another pair of crossed lines with an angle across one quarter mean something to you, does not mean they mean the same thing to others.

Want a four-sided triangle? A tetrahedron has four faces.

Want a five-sided triangle? Cut one out of paper and notice it has a top and bottom, as well as three sides.

Or you can simply redefine "triangle" to mean "quadrilateral". Once you make claims and draw conclusions about time and space based on "2+2=4", you may as well just jump the rest of the way in.

 

[wraith]

The deterministic cosmology presupposes that time has not existed always. Determinism claims that the present is derived from the past, in other words, the conditions existing in THIS second are caused by the conditions existing in the previous second (or microsecond, or whatever resolution you prefer). Of course, the conditions of one second ago were created by the conditions two seconds ago, etc. etc. etc. all the way back to the initial state. But if TIME did not start somewhere, there is no initial state, and consequently no basis for the conditions leading to THIS second.

Franko's cosmology tries to get around this by claiming that it took a lot of time (since for some reason he rejects the notion of time starting at some point), but this will not do. Its like those perpetuum mobiles that pretend that if you let water (or steel balls or whatever) run up a very obligue slope, they wont notice they run upwards. You cant be a little bit pregnant, and you cant have SOME determinism.

Hans

In other words....the past is not based on the present?

 

[wraith]

I've explained it to you twice. Time is measured by a sequence of events. If no events occur, then there is no time. Make that three times.

So how long did the "no-event" period last for?

Seriously, "timeless period" is an oxymoron. The word 'period' implies a length of time. It is hard to conceive, but if you open your mind to difficult concepts, you can do it.

So you can imagine a timeless period?

And you have still not agreed to give me something in return. I promise you, I can deliver. Make it worth my effort.

then do it!

And yet, you have a creator that doesn't have a creator. Why is that not magical? Is everything that you cannot conceive automatically magical?

Youre the one with a "no-time" idea

Of course I was asleep. There are various levels of sleep. Remember when you were young, you used to have scary nightmares? That was because you were too inexperienced to tell the difference between dreams and reality. As you grew older, you learned not to be scared by dreams (usually). This has to do with learning to recognize your various levels of consciousness. It is something most adults have learned.

again, can you say "I am dead" when youre dead?

LOL. Well, actually I was hoping you might dispute or (in my dreams ) support some of the points I had made. It really does no credit to you if you behave like a "yes man". Let us know what YOU think. Don't act like a sock puppet.

your points mean nothing to me

 

[wraith]

It's all in the assumptions. Just because you use a base-10 convention, it doesn't mean anyone else has to.

The 2₁₀ + 2₁₀ = 4₁₀ uses implied 10. And this is only because it's the convention you're used to.

Even the operation of "addition" is an implied meaning. Just because a couple of squiggles on flat lines, a pair of crossed lines, a pair of parallel lines and another pair of crossed lines with an angle across one quarter mean something to you, does not mean they mean the same thing to others.

So if you assume something different, then the whole thing is pointless.
So if we did assume the same thing, then there is still a probability of one of us being wrong in terms of this example?

Whats the probability of 2₁₀ + 2₁₀ equaling 4₁₀?

Want a four-sided triangle? A tetrahedron has four faces.

I said "sides" not "faces" for starters....
and I said "triangle" not "tetrahedron"

Want a five-sided triangle? Cut one out of paper and notice it has a top and bottom, as well as three sides.

The triangle itself has 3 sides...

Or you can simply redefine "triangle" to mean "quadrilateral". Once you make claims and draw conclusions about time and space based on "2+2=4", you may as well just jump the rest of the way in.

well then, it should be hard for you to show me your free-willy god then

 

[Tricky]

So how long did the "no-event" period last for?

Hmm... how long did something with no time last for? My guess is at least two blartfuncts.

So you can imagine a timeless period?

Yes, I can imagine it. All it takes is a good imagination. You should be able to manage it easily, since you believe in the Logical Goddess. Evidently, you have an excellent imagination.

then do it!

Nope. The secret of the four-sided triangle will remain a secret until you give me good reason to reveal it. As good reason, I will accept your admission that humans have free will. If you want to bargain for something else, well, I am open to reason.

Youre the one with a "no-time" idea

And your the one with the double standard. You criticize atheists for positing a beginning with no creator, but you also have a beginning with no creator. What created the "Progenitor Solipsist"? I am waiting for a reasoned response.

again, can you say "I am dead" when youre dead?

Nope. Dead means that there is no consciousness remaining. If you want to test this, try sounding a large alarm clock next to a dead body. If they wake up, then I am wrong. If you can give me any evidence of consciousness in a corpse, then I am wrong. If you decide to test this, please be considerate of the feelings of the bereaved.

but if you test this on a sleeping person, I'll bet you'll find that there is some consciousness remaining. I'll also bet that you'd better haul ass if you have just woken this "consciousness" up for no reason other than that you wanted to test it's consciousness. It might not care for your method of scientific inquiry.

your points mean nothing to me

Alas. I was hoping that you might be an intelligent, independant, reasoning human being. It grieves me to hear you declare that this is not the case.