Franko's "Universe as a Computer Program" Debunked

[MRC_Hans]

Well, I dont have a problem with it, because I dont believe it is true. But YOU have a problem with it, since you cannot at the same time claim that a system of reward and punishment makes sense.

You are the one claiming that Theists behave morally because they know that there are ultimate consequences for their actions. How can they behave better if every fart was preordained from the Initial State?

Hans

 

[wraith]

Well, I dont have a problem with it, because I dont believe it is true. But YOU have a problem with it, since you cannot at the same time claim that a system of reward and punishment makes sense.

Well I can actually...
Do your emotions/desires come to you willy nilly?
I guess you being the materialist, our emotions just "pop" into our heads? We dont obey atoms according to you?

You are the one claiming that Theists behave morally because they know that there are ultimate consequences for their actions. How can they behave better if every fart was preordained from the Initial State?

well for one thing, they dont believe that they cease to exist once they "die"

 

[MRC_Hans]

MMmm, there seems to be noise on this line.

Hans

 

[wraith]

it's not my ar5e

 

[MRC_Hans]

it's not my ar5e

If you say so. I have never been able to determine which end of you it came from.

Hans

 

[wraith]

If you say so. I have never been able to determine which end of you it came from.

Hans

if my ar5e talks then your mouth 5hits...
taking note here Trixy?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well, if there is a Logical Deist out there who's not anal retentive, could we get back on topic?

Provide evidence that information can be created in a closed deterministic system.

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
It can't, in a deterministic universe. But the universe is not deterministic

What – exactly – is your evidence for this outlandish claim?

BTW – do you realize that even your buddy Trixy is now claiming that determinism is true? Perhaps you should have a talk with him?

Provide evidence that information can be created in a closed deterministic system.

I already have. A fractal (like the Mandelbrot set) is a simple algorithm that uses recursion to generate an elaborate, ever changing, ever growing patterns of new (never before seen) information.

Unless you want to claim that the Mona Lisa actually existed before Da Vinci painted it.

MRC:
I dont think you have quite realized the consequences of your own cosmology: The claim for total determinism implies total predictability.

Only if you had Total Information – which you don’t.

It means you cannot fart unless it was preordained from the dawn of the universe.

Yep, that is exactly right. You reading this Word at this precise moment was preordained from the moment of the Big Bang by TLOP and the Initial State.

Why ... are you claiming that is NOT the case? If it wasn’t TLOP and IS, then what causes your movements MRC? … magic powers???

What is your EVIDENCE for magic powers? You have no more evidence for your beliefs than a Scientologist does!

 

[MRC_Hans]

(I claim that the unverse is not determinstic)
What – exactly – is your evidence for this outlandish claim?

Quantum Physics

BTW – do you realize that even your buddy Trixy is now claiming that determinism is true? Perhaps you should have a talk with him?

I'm talking to you.

I already have. A fractal (like the Mandelbrot set) is a simple algorithm that uses recursion to generate an elaborate, ever changing, ever growing patterns of new (never before seen) information.

Prove where information enters a Mandelbrot plotter. All information is there from the start.

Unless you want to claim that the Mona Lisa actually existed before Da Vinci painted it.

A work of art is not deterministic. You need to explain how Mona Lisa is created in a determinstic universe.

Only if you had Total Information – which you don’t.

Yep, that is exactly right. You reading this Word at this precise moment was preordained from the moment of the Big Bang by TLOP and the Initial State.

Sooo, how do you explain YOUR belief that reward and punishment can change preordained behaviour?

Why ... are you claiming that is NOT the case? If it wasn’t TLOP and IS, then what causes your movements MRC? … magic powers???

What is your EVIDENCE for magic powers? You have no more evidence for your beliefs than a Scientologist does!

Non-determinism is not magic.

Hans

 

[Franko]

MRC:
… the universe is not deterministic

Franko:
What – exactly – is your evidence for this outlandish claim?

MRC:
Quantum Physics

So you are claiming that QM PROVES that your actions are NOT based on a logical set of rules?

If your actions are not Determined by logical rules MRC, what EXACTLY does that mean? Your actions are simply “random”? Or are you claiming that your actions are magical?

What are you claiming (exactly) when you claim the universe isn’t deterministic. The fact is it’s pretty obvious you haven’t really given this much thought.

Franko:
BTW – do you realize that even your buddy Trixy is now claiming that determinism is true? Perhaps you should have a talk with him?

MRC:
I'm talking to you.

Yes … but do YOU realize that even your buddy Tricky (Your Dark A-Theist Lord and Master) is Now claiming that Determinism is True? How can you believe Determinism is FALSE if Tricky believes it is True?

Franko:
I already have. A fractal (like the Mandelbrot set) is a simple algorithm that uses recursion to generate an elaborate, ever changing, ever growing patterns of new (never before seen) information.

MRC:
Prove where information enters a Mandelbrot plotter. All information is there from the start.

So the picture of what the Mandelbrot set looked liked already existed before the program was entered, run, or plotted on the screen?

Do you mean just like the Mona Lisa existed from the start -- before Da Vinci got around to painting it?

Franko:
Unless you want to claim that the Mona Lisa actually existed before Da Vinci painted it.

MRC:
A work of art is not deterministic. You need to explain how Mona Lisa is created in a determinstic universe.

The Mona Lisa is no different then the Mandelbrot set. It is just a fractal, the result of many many iterations of a very simple algorithm. Explain why you believe that the Mandelbrot set is different then any other art work? What specifically is different about it MRC?

How is the Mona Lisa any different then a photograph (portrait) of any other women MRC? Is photography more evidence for indeterminism?

Franko:
Yep, that is exactly right. You reading this Word at this precise moment was preordained from the moment of the Big Bang by TLOP and the Initial State.

MRC:
Sooo, how do you explain YOUR belief that reward and punishment can change preordained behaviour?

TLOP is the set of rules that determines behavior. Without TLOP there wouldn’t be any Rewards and Punishment, and without Rewards and Punishment there wouldn’t be any TLOP.

Try and imagine a version of TLOP that would not also require a built in system of rewards and punishment. It can’t be done, and if you think it can, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what TLOP and consciousness really are.

Non-determinism is not magic.

If that is True, then you can explain what precisely what “Non-Determinism” means, and precisely how it works.

 

[Tricky]

So you are claiming that QM PROVES that your actions are NOT based on a logical set of rules?

I can't speak for MRC, but I think what it proves is that nothing in the "rules" implies determinism.

Yes … but do YOU realize that even your buddy Tricky (Your Dark A-Theist Lord and Master) is Now claiming that Determinism is True? How can you believe Determinism is FALSE if Tricky believes it is True?

LOL. Care to show where I've said that? No? I thought not.

BTW, I am not MRC's master. In fact he has disagreed strongly with me on certain points recently.

Where the hell is Muscleman these days?

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
LOL. Care to show where I've said that? No? I thought not.

Yesterday in the Darned Physics thread …

Franko:
So you are conceding that the conclusion is True tricky-one?

YOU OBEY TLOP?

Tricky:
I told you that I accepted it a long time ago, Franko, depending on your definition of "obey".

Forget my definition of “Obey” Tricky. Using Your definition of “Obey” can you NOT OBEY TLOP for me?

 

[Tricky]

Forget my definition of “Obey” Tricky. Using Your definition of “Obey” can you NOT OBEY TLOP for me?

Nice try, Franko. Just so you can't claim I have never told you, here is a definition for you. In the context of "obeying" the laws of physics.

obey = operates within the limits of

It in no way implies determinism, just as "obeying the rules of baseball" does not suggest that the outcome of any given game is pre-determined.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So you are claiming that QM PROVES that your actions are NOT based on a logical set of rules?

If your actions are not Determined by logical rules MRC, what EXACTLY does that mean? Your actions are simply “random”? Or are you claiming that your actions are magical?

My actions are probabilistic. I have repeatedly stated that I dont believe in magic.

What are you claiming (exactly) when you claim the universe isn’t deterministic. The fact is it’s pretty obvious you haven’t really given this much thought.

I is pretty obvious that you dont understand much. You cant handle complex math, you cant understand formal logic, you know nothing about information theory, your understanding of physics is very limited, and you dont seem to know much about programming. But you are good at straw men and at attributing weird standpoints to other people.

Why dont you try to repair your credibility just a little by actually trying to explain YOUR beliefs.?

Yes … but do YOU realize that even your buddy Tricky (Your Dark A-Theist Lord and Master) is Now claiming that Determinism is True? How can you believe Determinism is FALSE if Tricky believes it is True?

Ehhh, which buddy? If Tricky really believes in determinism, I'm looking forward to a good and sensible discussion with him, without evations, straw-men, ad hominem, lies, etc. But I'm not counting on YOU for knowing what people believe.

So the picture of what the Mandelbrot set looked liked already existed before the program was entered, run, or plotted on the screen?

Are you now asking me to explain YOUR cosmology? The M set is preordained. Deterministic. Predictable. Comprendo?

Do you mean just like the Mona Lisa existed from the start -- before Da Vinci got around to painting it?

Once more since you apparantly cannot read English: A work of art is not deterministic. Not preordained. Not predictable. Get it?

The Mona Lisa is no different then the Mandelbrot set. It is just a fractal, the result of many many iterations of a very simple algorithm. Explain why you believe that the Mandelbrot set is different then any other art work? What specifically is different about it MRC?

Sad for you that you don't know the difference. But perhaps you can give me the formula for Mona Lisa?

How is the Mona Lisa any different then a photograph (portrait) of any other women MRC? Is photography more evidence for indeterminism?

Photograps are quite quite probabilistic. But you are not telling me you believe that they always show the truth?

TLOP is the set of rules that determines behavior. Without TLOP there wouldn’t be any Rewards and Punishment, and without Rewards and Punishment there wouldn’t be any TLOP.

Try and imagine a version of TLOP that would not also require a built in system of rewards and punishment. It can’t be done, and if you think it can, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what TLOP and consciousness really are.

Reward and punishment are cultural concepts, they have nothing to do with the laws of physics. I have a fundamental disagreement with you on what TLOP and consciousness are.

If that is True, then you can explain what precisely what “Non-Determinism” means, and precisely how it works.

Since you cannot explain what you build your cosmology on, precise explanations from me are a tall order. Roll die. You will get a random figure bet 1 and 6. Thats non determinstic. ---

Or, go down to your local toy shop and buy some cheap "Glow in the Dark" toy. Maybe you already have one, they're all the rage right now. Take it into a dark room, bathe it in light from a lamp of flashlight (or a photo flash, that's really good). Turn out all lights. The object will now glow (mostly green). The glow will slowly diminish (half life appr. 5 minutes). After an hour or two, the glow will be faint but it will still be there.

Now, explain this phenomenon using only determinism.

Hans

(edited because my keyboard apparantly is also non-deterministic )

 

[Franko]

My actions are probabilistic. I have repeatedly stated that I dont believe in magic.

obviously you don't understand probability either.

Without Determinism there won't be any probability nitwit.

MRC, what is the probability of a "coin" landing "heads" up?

Now, what is the probability of a "dosendocker" landing "kineset" up?

Since you claim that probability does not require determinism you should have no trouble solving this problem.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Franko [/i

obviously you don't understand probability either.

Without Determinism there won't be any probability nitwit.

Right. Then there would only be randomness. Probabilistic events are partly deterministic, partly random.

MRC, what is the probability of a "coin" landing "heads" up?

50%

Now, what is the probability of a "dosendocker" landing "kineset" up?

Haven't the slightest idea.

Since you claim that probability does not require determinism you should have no trouble solving this problem.

I dont claim that, it just that you cant grasp the concept

Now, your turn: Explain phosphorescence using only determinism.

Hans

 

[wraith]

Well, if there is a Logical Deist out there who's not anal retentive, could we get back on topic?

Provide evidence that information can be created in a closed deterministic system.

Hans

If you won the lotto tomorrow, you wouldnt be surprised?
You already know that you will or will not win the lotto ever?

 

[MRC_Hans]

If you won the lotto tomorrow, you wouldnt be surprised?
You already know that you will or will not win the lotto ever?

What's you point?

 

[Franko]

My actions are probabilistic. I have repeatedly stated that I dont believe in magic.

Explain how probability works without Determinism being True?

It wouldn’t.

I have a deck of cards with various different symbols on them. If I don’t tell you how many cards I have, or how many different symbols there are can you tell me the probability that you will draw a card with the “Ahnk” on it?

Without DETERMINED parameters there is no probability. You are being incredibly naïve and dogmatic MRC.

Do you know HOW you know the probability of getting HEADS when you flip a coin is 50%??? It’s because you have preDETERMINED that:

1) a coin has two sides which are mutually exclusive when the coin is flipped.
2) the likelihood of either side landing is approximately equal.

Franko:
Do you mean just like the Mona Lisa existed from the start -- before Da Vinci got around to painting it?

MRC:
Once more since you apparantly cannot read English: A work of art is not deterministic. Not preordained. Not predictable. Get it?

Explain why you believe that Fractals are not artwork?

Define Artwork. Explain why artworks are not predetermined, but the Mandelbrot set was?

Wasn’t the painting of the Mona Lisa preDETERMINED by what Mona Lisa (the person) actually looked like? How is the Mona Lisa ANY different then a photographic portrait MRC?

When you take a photograph of you wife does a different person ever show up when you have the film developed?

According to your view of reality are photographs deterministic like a fractal, or are they magical like “artwork”?

Franko:
The Mona Lisa is no different then the Mandelbrot set. It is just a fractal, the result of many many iterations of a very simple algorithm. Explain why you believe that the Mandelbrot set is different then any other art work? What specifically is different about it MRC?

MRC:
Sad for you that you don't know the difference. But perhaps you can give me the formula for Mona Lisa?

The Mona Lisa is no different then the Mandelbrot set. It is just a fractal, the result of many many iterations of a very simple algorithm. Explain why you believe that the Mandelbrot set is different then any other art work? What specifically is different about it MRC?

How is the Mona Lisa any different then a photograph (portrait) of any other women MRC? Is photography more evidence for indeterminism?

Franko:
TLOP is the set of rules that determines behavior. Without TLOP there wouldn’t be any Rewards and Punishment, and without Rewards and Punishment there wouldn’t be any TLOP.

Try and imagine a version of TLOP that would not also require a built in system of rewards and punishment. It can’t be done, and if you think it can, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what TLOP and consciousness really are.

MRC:
Reward and punishment are cultural concepts, they have nothing to do with the laws of physics.

Really?

Well I suggest you try jumping off the roof of a tall building or roll around in a large bon fire and then tell yourself that Reward and punishment are cultural concepts, they have nothing to do with the laws of physics.

Let us know how it turns out.

If you want to make a fool of yourself for the sake of your religious dogma MRC, I’ll be more than happy to help you out.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist)
Nice try, Franko. Just so you can't claim I have never told you, here is a definition for you. In the context of "obeying" the laws of physics.

obey = operates within the limits of

It in no way implies determinism, just as "obeying the rules of baseball" does not suggest that the outcome of any given game is pre-determined.

Sure it is. It is pre-determined by the rules of baseball (and the players themselves).

I can prove it too, because I have watched a lot of baseball, and I have never seen anyone score a touchdown in baseball. I've never seen anyone teleport from 1st to 3rd base either. Everything that happens in a professional baseball game is according to the rules of baseball.