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Electric Vehicles

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Apparently 1 out of 5 people un California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.

So what you are saying is that 80% stayed with their EVs. Can you imagine the Carbon savings if 80% of US drivers switched over to EVs with renewables and nuclear run power-grid? Actually, I did some quick math for you, it's about a Billion Tons annually, or around half of the annual Carbon produced by transportation in the US.

ETA: Oh, and just for the entire story above, if the US switched to a 100% Nuclear and non-carbon electricity grid, and had 80% of drivers switch to EVs, then they could reduce their Carbon emissions by around 50% which would put them at about 1963 levels!
 
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Apparently 1 out of 5 people un California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.
So what you are saying is that 80% stayed with their EVs. Can you imagine the Carbon savings if 80% of US drivers switched over to EVs with renewables and nuclear run power-grid?
I am not denying that even 80% staying with electric vehicles would result in a huge reduction in carbon.

My point in posting the above statistic was to highlight potential problems with the adoption of electric vehicles.

The 20% who switched back from electric to gas were early adopters. They thought (for whatever reason, be it environmental concerns, potentially cheaper long-term costs, etc.) that an electric vehicle was the best choice, but found out later that there were too many problems with their EV to make it workable. If you want wide-spread adoption of EVs, it would be valuable to look at just why some people were unhappy with their EV in order to address those problems.
 
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate. If I had a garage and access to power, plugging in each night at home and waking up to full range sounds more convenient than weekly stops at the gas station.

Lack of fast charging stations make long road trips very inconvenient, but I'm surprised that the 300 mile range is a real hurdle for that many ordinary commuters.
 
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I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate. If I had a garage and access to power, plugging in each night at home and waking up to full range sounds more convenient than weekly stops at the gas station.

Lack of fast charging stations make long road trips very inconvenient, but I'm surprised that the 300 mile range is a real hurdle for that many ordinary commuters.
While I think that is true, we can't be sure that those 20 percent were buying cars with that much range, or how long it took them to charge. There are also other issues that may or may not be an influence.

It's possible that some early adopters were hoping for more infrastructure growth than happened, or that they were overly optimistic about the charging times and costs.
 
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, ...

Three hundred miles is at the upper range of newer EVs. Cars back in 2012 at the start of that study had less range. For example, the range on my 2015 EV is about 50-70 miles on a charge. Newer models of the same car get about double that range.
 
Three hundred miles is at the upper range of newer EVs. Cars back in 2012 at the start of that study had less range. For example, the range on my 2015 EV is about 50-70 miles on a charge. Newer models of the same car get about double that range.

That makes more sense. I imagine that range might have been just enough for a lot of people, and getting stuck without juice and no quick way to fix it is probably an experience that sours people pretty quick.
 
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I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many.

Again there's this rather unfair idea that your basic daily commute is the only performance metric its reasonable to expect a car to meet.

Even if you only have to go 300+ miles once or twice a year it's something a car has to do, especially if its your only car.

Like I keep saying it only rains about 10 days a year in parts of Arizona. That doesn't make houses with roofs a niche market.
 
Again there's this rather unfair idea that your basic daily commute is the only performance metric its reasonable to expect a car to meet.

Even if you only have to go 300+ miles once or twice a year it's something a car has to do, especially if its your only car.

Like I keep saying it only rains about 10 days a year in parts of Arizona. That doesn't make houses with roofs a niche market.

Once or twice a year is firmly into "rental car" territory IMO, as it is for me now for the 1 or 2 times a year I need a truck as opposed to my sedan. Not sure what frequency would tilt the scales for me as far as inconvenience.
 
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Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.
- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.
- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.

... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.
 
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Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.
- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.
- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.

... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.

Not sure who this is directed at.

I'm not dismissing the range issue as an edge case, I'm speculating about which of the many barriers to EV adoption are the most significant.

The lowest hanging fruit right now is probably the huge swath of commuters that drive fairly short distances. People that routinely make very long drives, and at this point we're talking multi-hour non-stop road trips, are probably going to be the most difficult to meet the needs of. There's plenty of people where that is not a realistic problem or occurs at low enough frequency that renting a specialty vehicle or making special accommodation isn't unreasonable.

The lack of home and work charging strikes me as a much more immediate problem to mass adoption. Tesla largely avoids this problem by being high-cost luxury vehicles that are probably being bought by people with garages or other private parking that is easy to electrify. The everyman's car means that people who park in large surface lots or along the street for apartment complexes and multi-family housing are much less likely to have access to such nice parking arrangements.

It's not about hand-waving away problems as "edge cases", I'm just trying to identify what the most immediate barriers are for largest groups of people. The lowest hanging fruit should be picked first.
 
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Of course if you only need extra range some of the time, and if you happen to live within reasonable distance of a rental place, and if you can plan these things enough in advance, the issue of range is less important. But I can see how even rare occasions could sour a buyer if they occur by surprise or in emergencies.

If you have a low range car that suffices most of the time, which is to say you can commute within the range if you recharge it overnight, that's fine until someone needs to go to the hospital in the middle of the night, or the power goes off for the day - things that may happen only a couple of times a year, but when they do, a discharged car will let you down in a hurry.

It also ought to be pointed out that renting a car can be pretty expensive. I went off visiting for a week, and it cost something around $500 to rent a tiny little three cylinder mini-compact. That's a fair chunk of change for a car that would be painful to take on any extended excursion. If you have more than one car, of course, one could be electric and another, in reserve, not. But if you have only one car, the limitations of range and convenience grow. If you own no car at all, rental can be a viable option, but it seems less so if you must rent a car and leave the one you own at home (or drive it to the rental lot, where it may or may not get enough charge to take you back home).

I can easily see how at least some early adopters would find that contingencies became too complicated, and might decide to abandon the project, at least for a while.

I still think there is plenty of room for plenty of electric adoption, and that there are many good reasons for going electric, and that we need very much to avoid an all-or-nothing attitude, as if we shouldn't think hard about it until everyone can get on board. But I also think that for many (Joe Morgue being a conspicuous example) it isn't time, and likely will not be for some time to come.

I'm somewhere between, I guess. As a multi-vehicle owner, I could likely replace the most used little econobox with an electric, saving my wife's SUV and my truck for when that can't be used. But infrastructure here is still a little weak, and at my own homesite, solar power is difficult owing to geography and distance (I'd have to run a long line between the best solar site and the best outlet site), and I have only a 100 amp electric service including the drop line, which is probably not adequate for any but the slowest charging. Some day, one of those problems will probably be corrected, but not today.
 
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate.
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Even if you started with a full ~300 mile charge, if your daily usage is above 36 miles (certainly possible for some people) throughout the week you would be draining more from the battery than you'd be putting in at night.
 
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Even if you started with a full ~300 mile charge, if your daily usage is above 36 miles (certainly possible for some people) throughout the week you would be draining more from the battery than you'd be putting in at night.

Yeah, that's pretty bad. It's hard to imagine how anyone could justify buying one of these EV's if they didn't have reliable access to at least 240V charging overnight or while at work. Trickle charging off a 120V power outlet seems like a terrible option unless you're driving very few miles per day.
 
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Intersting. Our Clarity plugged into 120v charges at about 4 miles per hour. Sounds slow, but overnight almost invariably results in a full charge (typically 38 to 50 miles of EV range, mainly dependent on temperature) in the morning, even if starting at 0 miles. Which, being a hybrid is not at all scary. When we'd like a slightly quicker charge we can plug into 240v but with the same 16A charger. That results in about 10 miles per hour of charge, handy if we run multiple errands throughout the day. I don't see any reason why the Mustang would be doomed to charging much more slowly. since its technology should be about 3 years ahead of ours.
 
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Intersting. Our Clarity plugged into 120v charges at about 4 miles per hour. Sounds slow, but overnight almost invariably results in a full charge (typically 38 to 50 miles of EV range, daily dependent on temperature) in the morning, even if starting at 0 miles. Which, being a hybrid is not at all scary. When we'd like a slightly quicker charge we can plug into 240v but with the same 16A charger. That results in about 10 miles per hour of charge, handy if we run multiple errands throughout the day. I don't see any reason why the Mustang would be doomed to charging much more slowly. since its technology should be about 3 years ahead of ours.

I think that's typical for charging off normal 120 V. This source says a Chevy Bolt only gets 4 miles/hr at 120V, where a level 2 (240V) charges 25 miles/hr.

Installing a 240V at your home or work seems to be the expectation, I don't really see how the slow charge is going to be practical for most.

https://www.chargepoint.com/blog/charging-chevy-bolt-ev-everything-you-need-know/
 
300 mile round trip in the Leaf this weekend. 4.9kw/mile on the way down, 4.5 on the way back when it was colder. Two rapid charges, about £14, plus two quids' worth at home
 
Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.

This is an issue, and apartment owners are starting to step up, but it is easier for home owners than apartment dwellers.

- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.

This is a lie. I already documented my trip on here to Yellowstone, and while charging times are slower than a gas fill up, they are not horrifically so.

- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.

I posted a youtube video for you at your previous statement of this. There are more than 'tax incentives' available.

... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.

I have no idea where you're going with this, other than the fact you're trying to make perfect the enemy of the good.
 
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