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Merged Depleted uranium

Re: Re: Depleted uranium

geni said:
They've banned my IP adress? WTF? What did I do.

Probably, you disagreed with them. Happened to me on the homeopathy board: I asked if any of the countries stiken by the Indian ocean tsunami were asking for homeopathic medicine for help, by any chance. Got banned in a New York minute.
 
Ziggurat said:
Actually, it isn't clear that this is always the case. We really don't have a good understanding of the health effects of low-level radiation. What we do have is data regarding the effects of very high level doses, where the effects are quite noticeable. These data are often extrapolated to low doses, making the assumption that risk is linear with dosage with no threshold level. But that's probably not accurate. The body has natural repair mechanisms to take care of damaged DNA and even cancerous cells. These mechanisms probably make low dosage exposure much less dangerous than you would expect based on linear extrapolation methods. Because the risks at low dosage are so small and because factors other than radiation also affect cancer rates, nobody has good statistics. In fact, it's even concievable that slightly elevated radiation levels could be good for you, similar to how living in an overly sterile environment can make people prone to allergies. After all, we've evolved to live in an environment with radiation, and we are exposed to radiation every day.

You make some excellent points. Indeed the body can repair damage from radiation up to a point. It's a good thing we have that ability because there is a natural background level we all are exposed to all the time; our DNA does get damaged (and then fixed).

You say "Because the risks at low dosage are so small and because factors other than radiation also affect cancer rates, nobody has good statistics." Factors other than radiation can be controlled for in any study if done properly. (I said it for the third time.) The problem should only come if you want study doses so small that no matter how large the study is (in terms of number of participants) that no statisically significant conclusion about increased risk can be made. In that case, no one should have anything to worry about.

Lots of studies have been done for exposure to radiation at varying levels. We have much more than data for very high level exposure. What comes to mind are studies of people who have had dental x-rays and studies of people who travel alot by air where one gets an increased dose from cosmic ray showers. If I recall correctly the risks of these activities are in fact higher, but not by much. One has to weigh the benefits (good dental health) against the (very small but finite) risk. I'm sure that one could find these studies in short order.

I've only been talking about the radiological effect (something I'm more familiar with), but don't forget it can react chemically, as well.

DU exposure is such a political issue that I think that any attempt at a good study will be undermined somehow. This is very unfortunate as a perfectly good sample of (non-volunteering) participants are currently available.
 
kalen said:
-DU is a radioactive alpha emitter.
-Alpha emitters are only really dangerous if ingested/inhaled.
-Radioactivity above normal levels causes cancers, etc.
-If DU is inhaled/ingested, a radioactive dose would be received.
-I end up by saying the quantity ingested is an important factor as it relates directly to the radioactive dose received.
{sigh}
  • AWPrime made a claim.
  • I asked for evidence.
  • You chided me for my ignorance and then proceeded to give me an explanation.
  • I told you that a skeptic asks for proof.
  • To date you have not given any.
There is nothing that I have done that is wrong or not in keeping with skepticism.

I suggest you look up "depleted uranium" and reading about it. The large variation comes about depending on how much 235U has been removed from the natural uranium. Maybe you think I should apply for the JREF million$ for making such a claim?
You know what. I would just be interested in some evidence as to the risk. How much risk and what proof do you have? That's all. I don't need sarcasm or games. A simple straight forward answer.

Yes. You said the magic words: "objective evidence." If we had any (and enough of it) then we agree a conclusion can be reached. Unless you start demanding that I prove the evidence is objective and that the extra/(or not extra) cancers are from a different source. But that's what controls in well designed studies are supposed to do. (This is the second time I had to say that to a skeptic?)
Oh stop with the sanctimony already. Objective evidence does not need to be emperical. And yes that is what controls are for but that is what makes them objective. I'm at a loss as to what your point is. Objective does not mean empirical. Do you understand that? Methodology, protocols, peer-review. This is the stuff of objectivity. Do you have any of that as it pertains to AWPrime's claim?

Did I forget to say the words "statisically significant?" Nope.
If it is not "statistically significant" then of what importance is it?

Just don't give the rest of us a bad name.
Who is this "us"? You have to be a skeptic to include yourself.

So, you don't think the dose has anything to do with it?
It could be. That is not my point. If it is then shouldn't there be evidence that it is?

Randfan, I'm not pushing an agenda here. I genuinely do want the risks to be known - for the sake of alot people who are currently being exposed to DU. Maybe it is harmless in typical exposures.
That is fine but let's honestly state what we know and don't know. Fair enough? You only claim that there CAN be a risk but have no evidence. On the contrary all evidence to date indicates that there is little or no greater risk than back ground radiation. Here is a question: Why should we dismiss current evidence that DU does not pose a significant health problem? Hey, I don't have a problem with questioning currently held beliefs about DU but you should have evidence to counter the current evidence, correct?

You, on the other hand, are jumping in to demand proof on the radioactive properties of uranium. Either you have an agenda or I am beginning to suspect I just fed a troll a five course meal.
I am only asking for the proof of a claim. That is all nothing more. This all started with a claim and I asked for proof of it.

When not in the body, DU posses hardly any risk. However when inhaled it posses a health risk.
Does it? Really? How much of a risk? Is it a significant risk?

Standing in the sun is a health risk.
Eating steak is a health risk.
Living is a health risk.

I want to know the significance of this particular health risk and to what degree that risk is. Simply stating that it is a health risk solves nothing nor does it advance the discussion. If you want to think me a troll fine.
 
Re: Re: Re: Depleted uranium

Skeptic said:
Probably, you disagreed with them. Happened to me on the homeopathy board: I asked if any of the countries stiken by the Indian ocean tsunami were asking for homeopathic medicine for help, by any chance. Got banned in a New York minute.
:hit: Duh! That'll teach you.

:D That is so priceless.
 
I'm having flashbacks again........

Newspaper Tour Guide: And each paper contains a certain percentage of recycled paper.
Lisa: What percentage is that?
Newspaper Tour Guide: Zero. Zero is a percent, isn't it?
 
kalen said:
I'm having flashbacks again........

Newspaper Tour Guide: And each paper contains a certain percentage of recycled paper.
Lisa: What percentage is that?
Newspaper Tour Guide: Zero. Zero is a percent, isn't it?
Odd because this would seem to be your point.

kalen: DU when inhaled is a risk.

RandFan: How much of a risk?

Kalen: I don't know.

RandFan: Can you demonstrate that it is a risk?

kalen: No.

RandFan: Is it a statisticaly significant risk?

Kalen: I never said it was.

RandFan: Existing evidence says that DU is not a significant risk.

kalen: I genuinely do want the risks to be known

RandFan: That's fine but since all of the current evidence is on the side that it is not a significant risk then isn't the onus on those who claim that it is a risk to demonstrate that it is?
 
RandFan:
"That's fine but since all of the current evidence is on the side that it is not a significant risk then isn't the onus on those who claim that it is a risk to demonstrate that it is?"

Plus the fact it`s not us inhaling it etc, it`s just Iraqis.
The jury might be out if we are being completely honest but who gives a ****, it`s only Iraqis, not our schoolkids playing around on a potentially toxic wasteland.

Ok, to those who would happily swallow DU, would you happily let your kids swallow it? Let them play in a swing park dosed with DU? Let them play for couple of years in a battleground where DU weapons had been used?

If you say "yes" then ok, I admire you faith. I wouldn`t risk it...not with the present state of research and conclusions.
 
demon said:
RandFan:
"That's fine but since all of the current evidence is on the side that it is not a significant risk then isn't the onus on those who claim that it is a risk to demonstrate that it is?"

Plus the fact it`s not us inhaling it etc, it`s just Iraqis.
The jury might be out if we are being completely honest but who gives a ****, it`s only Iraqis, not our schoolkids playing around on a potentially toxic wasteland.

Ok, to those who would happily swallow DU, would you happily let your kids swallow it? Let them play in a swing park dosed with DU? Let them play for couple of years in a battleground where DU weapons had been used?

If you say "yes" then ok, I admire you faith. I wouldn`t risk it...not with the present state of research and conclusions.

I hate to double post, so I'll just say that all of these concerns were addressed in the link in my previous post. The study contains hard data. The conclusions were that it is not a risk. Please don't make me accuse the left of ignoring evidence and making empty accusations without presenting evidence of their own........again. It gets very tiresome.
 
kalen said:
You say "Because the risks at low dosage are so small and because factors other than radiation also affect cancer rates, nobody has good statistics." Factors other than radiation can be controlled for in any study if done properly. (I said it for the third time.)

For obvious ethical and public relations reasons, you can't give doses to a randomly selected group, which would be the ideal way to get good statistics. You pretty much have to pick people who get exposed occupationally. But once you do that, you pretty much automatically get all sorts of other correlations you don't want, such as income level (radiation workers I believe earn more than the average worker, because they're mostly skilled workers, and health is very correlated to income). Yes, you can control for these other factors, IF you know what to control for. But every time you want to control for something, it makes the study harder to do and the results less certain. So it's tough to do a good study to begin with, and you pretty much have to cross your fingers and hope you controlled for every other risk factor (good luck being certain about that). The assumption of linear risk (which is the most commonly used model) is probably an upper bound, which makes it useful from a policy perspective, but it's always good to keep that in mind.
 
demon said:
Ok, to those who would happily swallow DU, would you happily let your kids swallow it? Let them play in a swing park dosed with DU? Let them play for couple of years in a battleground where DU weapons had been used?
If I found that they had been playing in or near DU I certainly wouldn't be concerned. Is there reason that I should be? Any evidence? Any data? I'm not sure yet why I shouldn't. I have been asking over and over if there is evidence that it is dangerous. As yet I have not seen anything but conjecture and speculation. If someone provided me with evidence that it was dangerous then I would say no I wouldn't. I'm waiting.

If you say "yes" then ok, I admire you faith. I wouldn`t risk it...not with the present state of research and conclusions.
What research? What conclusions?
 
I'm part of the liberal left, and I acknowledge that the claims about DU causing environmental health dangers is absurd.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I'm part of the liberal left, and I acknowledge that the claims about DU causing environmental health dangers is absurd.

Yeah, well I'm pretty much an atheist conservative, and I'm very pleased to meet an outcast from the other side. :D
 
I don't let politics get in the way of my views on reality, namely scientific facts.
 
Posted by Bruce:

I stopped reading right here. If this is the title of your organization, then you've already destroyed your credibility. Let's try something similar...

"Are Atheists Truly Immoral?"
Commissioned by
The Christian Fundamentalists Council to Prove That Atheists are Definitely Immoral (CFCPTADI)

(sigh) Next.


Not my organization, but the individual I chose to quote from the allegedly biased site is none other than the Director of the DU program at the Veterans Administration.

Thus the VA is saying that Du has harmed US sevicemen.


Another source

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/diss.html#CHROMSCHOTT

New paper by Dan Fahey addresses unresolved issues regarding depleted uranium and veterans' health
"There are new and legitimate concerns about the adequacy and implementation of current DU policies. This paper examines current policies to identify, evaluate, test, and monitor veterans with known or suspected DU exposures, with a focus on veterans of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. This paper also contains updated figures about the quantities of DU shot during combat in Iraq, and new information about the results of DU testing of US and British veterans."
Unresolved Issues Regarding Depleted Uranium And the Health of U.S. Veterans of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, by Dan Fahey, 24 March 2004
> Download full paper (241k PDF - posted with permission)


4. Does it make sense to refer Operation Iraqi Freedom veterans to a VA program
that has withheld information about the health of Operation Desert Storm
veterans exposed to DU?
The shortcomings of the VA’s DU Program are getting harder to ignore. In 2003, the
study assessed the health of just 32 of the approximately 900 veterans with Level I and II
exposures during and after Operation Desert Storm.26 Among the 70 total veterans
examined since 1993, at least one had developed a rare Hodgkin’s lymphoma,27 and at
least one other had a bone tumor removed from his arm;28 yet in 2001, Pentagon officials
blatantly lied about the existence of the lymphoma,29 and Dr. Melissa McDiarmid,
director of the DU Program, has still not reported or publicly discussed the bone tumor.
These shortcomings make it difficult to assess the extent and severity of health effects
possibly related to DU, but VA and DoD officials nonetheless invoke the findings from
the study to downplay public concerns about DU. Through their errors of fact and
omission, these VA and DoD officials influence policy decisions about future research
and the extension of service connected health care and benefits to veterans. The DU
Program is undersized and politicized, and someone needs to investigate whether all
relevant health effects have been publicly reported, and to put an end to the practice of
misrepresenting the health of veterans to achieve political ends.
26 Dr. Melissa McDiarmid, presentation to the VA Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’
Illnesses, Washington, DC, 24 February 2004, author’s notes.
27 The Office of the Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense for Gulf War Illnesses, “Meeting
with Dr. Melissa McDiarmid and her staff on October 15, 1999 to discuss the Baltimore DU Follow-Up
Program and the Extended Follow-Up Program,” undated.
28 See Dan Fahey, “Science or Science Fiction? Facts, Myths and Propaganda in the Debate Over Depleted
Uranium Munitions,” 12 March 2003, p. 22.
29 M. Kilpatrick, Dr., statement at NATO press briefing, Brussels, 10 January 2001,
http://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s010110b.htm.
Unresolved Issues 24 March 2004 9
DoD currently refers men and women exposed to DU during Operation Iraqi Freedom
and other military activities to the VA’s DU Program, which “enrolls all patients with
embedded DU fragments and others on a case-by-case basis.”30 However, it is not clear
that the mistakes of the past, including DoD’s failure to refer all exposed veterans to VA
after Operation Desert Storm, have been corrected. History clearly demonstrates that we
cannot simply accept the promises and declarations made by DoD regarding
environmental health issues, including exposures to DU. In this context, it does not make
sense to refer OIF veterans to an inadequate and politicized DU Program.
The Lymphoma and Bone Tumor Conundrum
The manner in which VA and DoD have ignored and manipulated the findings of a rare
lymphoma and a bone tumor raises serious concerns about the purpose of the DU
Program and whether all information about health effects among the veterans in the study
have been reported. Pentagon officials have clearly lied about the existence of cancer
among veterans in the DU Program, and Dr. McDiarmid has selectively presented
information in a manner which calls to question her judgment and impartiality. It is
essential to resolve the program’s shortcomings epitomized by the flawed reporting of the
lymphoma and bone tumor cases before adding new veterans to the DU Program.
Of the 50 veterans examined by the DU Program in 1999, one had developed Hodgkin’s
lymphoma. Hodgkin’s lymphoma develops in the lymph nodes, and it is a rare form of
cancer (2.58 cases per 100,000 people in more developed countries; 0.94 cases per
100,000 in less developed countries31) with no known risk factor.32 According to the
Institute of Medicine:
The lymphatic system is an important potential target for uranium radiation
because inhaled insoluble uranium oxides can remain up to several years in the
hilar lymph nodes of the lung. Studying the effect of uranium exposure on
lymphatic cancer is more difficult than studying lung cancer because lymphatic
cancer is much less common.33
30 U.S. Department of Defense Deployment Health Clinical Center (DHCC), “Depleted Uranium Provider
Reference Pocket Cards,” Post Deployment Health Clinical Practice Guideline, Version 1.0, December
2003, Cards 1 and 6.
31 In 1999 the incidence of Hodgkin’s lymphoma among U.S. residents was 2.8 per 100,000 people (3.0 for
men, 2.5 for women). For men and women aged 25-29, the incidence was 5.4 per 100,000; for ages 30-34
the incidence was 4.1 per 100,000. LAG Ries, MP Eisner, CL Kosary, BF Hankey, BA Miller, L Clegg,
BK Edwards, eds., SEER Cancer Statistics Review, 1973-1999, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD,
http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1973_1999/, 2002. Incidence rates in other countries with forces that served in
the Gulf War or Balkans are similar: Italy – 3.62; The Netherlands – 2.32; United Kingdom – 2.26; Saudi
Arabia – 2.69; Kuwait – 4.33; Iraq – 2.10. J. Ferlay, F. Bray, P. Pisani and D.M. Parkin, GLOBOCAN
2000: Cancer Incidence, Mortality and Prevalence Worldwide, Version 1.0, IARC CancerBase No. 5,
Lyon, IARCPress, 2001, Limited version available from: URL: http://wwwdep.
iarc.fr/globocan/globocan.htm, last updated on 03/02/2001.
32 National Cancer Institute (U.S.), ‘Information about detection, symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment of
Hodgkin’s disease,’ NIH Publication No. 99-1555, 16 September 2002.
33 U.S. Institute of Medicine, Gulf War and Health, Volume 1, Depleted Uranium, Pyridostigmine
Bromide, Sarin, Vaccines (Washington, D.C., National Academy Press 2000) p. 142.
Unresolved Issues 24 March 2004 10
In general, Hodgkin’s lymphoma occurs more often among men and in people aged 15-
34 and over 55.
Of the 50 veterans examined by the DU Program in 1999, one had a bone tumor in his
humerus (upper arm bone), which was later removed. This finding appears to have
clinical significance because laboratory research conducted by the Armed Forces
Radiobiology Research Institute has determined that DU may contribute to cellular
changes that result in the initiation and promotion of tumors.34 In addition, the US
Institute of Medicine reports: “Like the lymphatic system, bone is an important potential
target for the effects of uranium because uranium is distributed to the bone, replaces
calcium in bone matrix, and may remain in bone for several years.”35
Inexplicably, the lymphoma and bone tumor have been lied about and misrepresented by
both DoD officials and Dr. McDiarmid. During the 2000-2001 DU controversy in
Europe, DoD officials blatantly lied about the existence of the lymphoma, and in 2003 an
Army spokesman denied that any veterans in the DU Program have developed any
tumors.36 While DoD officials have attempted to justify their lies by claiming they were
only reporting what was in the peer-reviewed published literature,37 Dr. McDiarmid has
offered little in the way of an explanation for her habit of withholding information about
veterans’ health.
Unlike DoD’s errors of fact, Dr. McDiarmid has committed errors of omission which
have resulted in an incomplete public disclosure about the health of veterans in the study.
In an editorial that appeared in the British Medical Journal on 20 January 2001 – at the
height of the European DU controversy – Dr. McDiarmid carefully chose her words,
narrowly presenting cancer information about 15 veterans (those who retain DU
shrapnel), and conspicuously omitting any mention of the lymphoma or bone tumor:
Other evidence [of health effects] comes from a small surveillance study of (then
30 and now 60) US Gulf war veterans who were victims of friendly fire with
depleted uranium. About 15 of these veterans possess retained metal fragments of
depleted uranium in soft tissue and are excreting raised uranium concentrations in
their urine. None of these veterans has leukaemia, bone cancer, or lung cancer.
Thus, the argument for uranium being the cause of leukaemia in peacekeeping
forces is thin, notwithstanding the short latencies implied, even by the standards
of haematological malignancies.38
34 A.C. Miller et al, “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha
particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry (2002) pp. 246-252 at 251
35 U.S. Institute of Medicine, Gulf War and Health, Volume 1, Depleted Uranium, Pyridostigmine
Bromide, Sarin, Vaccines (Washington, D.C., National Academy Press 2000) p. 143.
36 Dennis Gray, “US military says depleted uranium shells in Iraq pose no health dangers,” Associated
Press, 6 May 2003.
37 This defense was proffered by Dr. Michael Kilpatrick during the policy debate at the MIT conference,
“Depleted Uranium: Toxic Contaminant or Necessary Technology,” 6 March 2004. See link to audio at
www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/diss.html#MITDU04.
38 Melissa McDiarmid, “Depleted uranium and public health,” 322 British Medical Journal (20 January
2001) 123-124.
Unresolved Issues 24 March 2004 11
While European doctors and scientists looked in 2001 for information with which to
assess the risks of DU, Dr. McDiarmid not only provided incomplete information about
the health of veterans in her study, but she also did so in way that clearly supported
DoD’s efforts to downplay European concerns about the effects of DU exposure. Dr.
McDiarmid’s failure to mention the lymphoma or bone tumor is hard to overlook or
dismiss as an oversight, given the extreme media interest and political debate at that time
within NATO about the effects of DU on veterans who served in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Although Dr. McDiarmid has still not publicly acknowledged the bone tumor, she did
address the lymphoma in a December 2001 journal article, in three sentences notable for
their brevity and dismissiveness:
Of note, there was one report of Hodgkin’s disease in a newly identified member
of the low urine uranium group. First diagnosed approximately 4 years after his
Gulf War service, neither his private physicians nor he believed it to be DUrelated.
Hodgkin’s disease is not thought to have any known major risk factor,
including radiation.39
Here Dr. McDiarmid takes on an advocacy role, dismissing the significance of a rare
lymphoma among the few dozen veterans in her study. In contrast to Dr. McDiarmid, the
Institute of Medicine concluded there is inadequate or insufficient evidence to determine
whether an association does or does not exist between DU exposure and lymphatic cancer
(as well as bone and lung cancer).40
The Political Sieve
The cases of the Hodgkin’s lymphoma and bone tumor illustrate several problems with
the DU Program. First, there appears to be a process within DoD and VA – or rather two
separate processes – that filter information about the health of veterans in the DU
Program through a political sieve, thereby providing veterans, the public, and policy
makers with incomplete and inaccurate information about effects possibly related to DU.
Second, although the study size is too small to permit conclusions to be drawn about the
significance of cancers, tumors, or other effects possibly related to DU,41 DoD officials
and Dr. McDiarmid often present their interpretations of clinical findings in policy
contexts, drawing sweeping conclusions about all veterans and civilians exposed to DU.42
39 Melissa McDiarmid et al, “Surveillance of Depleted Uranium Exposed Gulf War Veterans: Health
Effects Observed in an Enlarged “Friendly Fire” Cohort,” 42(12) Journal of Occupational and
Environmental Medicine (2001) 998.
40 US Institute of Medicine, Gulf War and Health, Volume 1, Depleted Uranium, Pyridostigmine Bromide,
Sarin, Vaccines (Washington, D.C., National Academy Press 2000) 159-160.
41 U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Baltimore VAMC, Department of Veterans Affairs Program for the
Follow-up and Monitoring of Gulf War Veterans with Imbedded Fragments of Depleted Uranium, Draft,
(23 September 1993) 11.
42 See M. Kilpatrick, Dr., statement at NATO press briefing, Brussels, 10 January 2001,
http://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s010110b.htm; Dr. Melissa McDiarmid, “Health Effects of Depletd
Uranium on Exposed Gulf War Veterans: A 10-Year Follow-Up,” Journal of Toxicology and
Environmental Health, Part A, 67: 277, 2004, Dr. Melissa McDiarmid, presentation to the VA Research
Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses, Washington, DC, 24 February 2004, author’s notes.
Unresolved Issues 24 March 2004 12
These actions are not only preventing an assessment of the health of the approximately
900 Level I and II veterans, but also preventing U.S. policy makers from assessing the
possible impacts of DU on civilian populations, which is a controversial and politically
charged issue in need of a thorough and objective analysis.
In her British Medical Journal editorial, Dr. McDiarmid also invoked studies of uranium
industry workers to downplay public concerns about DU.43 However, the Institute of
Medicine noted that these studies have limited relevance to other uranium exposures,
such as DU exposures among soldiers on a battlefield:
In general, animal studies have provided invaluable information on the
pharmacokinetics of uranium, as well as qualitative insight into the toxicology of
uranium. As discussed in this chapter, the majority of evidence on the health
effects of exposure to uranium is from studies of workers in uranium processing
mills and other facilities. Few studies of Gulf War veterans have specifically
focused on the effects of uranium. Additionally, the literature on uranium miners
is largely not relevant to the study of uranium per se because the primary
exposure of this population was to radon progeny, which are known lung
carcinogens. Although the studies of uranium processing workers are useful for
drawing conclusions, the study settings have inherent weaknesses. First, even
studies involving tens of thousands of workers are not large enough to identify
small increases in the relative risk of uncommon cancers. Second, few studies
had accurate information about individual exposure levels. Some authors
estimated the cumulative dose by following an employee's path through various
jobs whose average radiation exposure was known. Third, in these industrial
settings, the populations could have been exposed to other radioisotopes (i.e.
radium ore, thorium) and to a number of industrial chemicals that may confound
health outcomes. Finally, no studies had reliable information about cigarette
smoking, which may also confound outcomes of lung cancer. However, these
cohorts or uranium processing workers are an important resource, and the
committee encourages further studies that will provide progressively longer
follow-up, improvements in exposure estimation, and more sophisticated
statistical analyses.44
The uncertainties regarding the presence or absence of health effects among veterans
exposed to DU can only be resolved by an assessment of the health status of Level I and
II veterans from the 1991 war, but DoD officials and Dr. McDiarmid appear eager to
continue to misleadingly invoke the uranium industry studies as well as carefully selected
findings of the undersized DU Program to prevent an assessment of veterans from taking
place.
43 Melissa McDiarmid, “Depleted uranium and public health,” 322 British Medical Journal (20 January
2001) 123-124.
44 U.S. Institute of Medicine, Gulf War and Health, Volume 1, Depleted Uranium, Pyridostigmine
Bromide, Sarin, Vaccines (Washington, D.C., National Academy Press 2000) 159.
Unresolved Issues 24 March 2004 13
In its 2000 report, the Institute of Medicine recommended “long-term follow-up of
veterans exposed to depleted uranium, including the Baltimore cohort [DU Program] and
other veterans potentially exposed to depleted uranium (e.g., those involved in cleanup
operations or radiation control units).”45 This recommendation should apply equally to
veterans exposed in 1991 and since 2001, and include veterans with Level I (friendly fire)
and II (cleanup operations and radiation control units) exposures.
Recommendation: The DU Program should be restructured and expanded into a cohort
study that assesses the health of the approximately 900 veterans identified by DoD as
having had Level I and II exposures during the 1991 war. VA should create a new DU
study – under new leadership – that reports all relevant health effects to policy makers
and the public in a timely and accurate way.
 
Ziggurat said:
For obvious ethical and public relations reasons, you can't give doses to a randomly selected group, which would be the ideal way to get good statistics. You pretty much have to pick people who get exposed occupationally. But once you do that, you pretty much automatically get all sorts of other correlations you don't want, such as income level (radiation workers I believe earn more than the average worker, because they're mostly skilled workers, and health is very correlated to income). Yes, you can control for these other factors, IF you know what to control for. But every time you want to control for something, it makes the study harder to do and the results less certain. So it's tough to do a good study to begin with, and you pretty much have to cross your fingers and hope you controlled for every other risk factor (good luck being certain about that). The assumption of linear risk (which is the most commonly used model) is probably an upper bound, which makes it useful from a policy perspective, but it's always good to keep that in mind.

Lots of people have now been involuntarily exposed to DU - Iraqis and Americans alike. OK, it wasn't for the purposes of a scientific study, but now there is a large number of people exposed to DU - studies can now be done. To me, that is a prudent thing to do. Sure, there will be limitations on what one can discover, but if the risks are as high or low as some people have been claiming, then there should be no problem showing that. (You even alluded to the suggestion DU might be good for you.) Unfortunately, it seems lots of people have an agenda, so maybe there is a problem. Add the DU question to the list:

Is tobacco bad for you?
Is flouride in the drinking water bad for you?
Is there really global warming?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
 
So, you admit there isn't scientific evidence, but you think we should look for it based on anecdotes.

The WHO did studies in Kosovo based on anecdotes about DU, and they found that DU posed no threat there. Is there something special about DU that makes it more dangerous in different geographical locations?
 
kalen said:
(You even alluded to the suggestion DU might be good for you.)

No, I alluded to the fact that slightly elevated radiation levels might be good for you. DU also presents a heavy metal toxicity risk, which I haven't talked about at all.
 
thaiboxerken said:
So, you admit there isn't scientific evidence, but you think we should look for it based on anecdotes.

The WHO did studies in Kosovo based on anecdotes about DU, and they found that DU posed no threat there. Is there something special about DU that makes it more dangerous in different geographical locations?

I take it you mean this WHO report. Because you seem to know what it says, I also take it you read it. You might recall some of their conclusions such as:

2. Scientific and medical studies have not established a link between exposure to depleted uranium and the onset of cancers, congenital abnormalities or serious toxic chemical effects on organs. Caution has been expressed by some scientists who would like to see a larger body of independently (i.e. non-military) funded studies to confirm the current viewpoint.

and

5. No convincing evidence is available to indicate any health impacts to the Kosovo population associated with the use of depleted uranium.

So you are telling me they have a solid case and there is no need to look into the DU issue any further. Great attitude.

Personally, I'd be more convinced if these statements read:

2. Scientific and medical studies have established there is no link between exposure to depleted uranium and the onset of cancers, congenital abnormalities or serious toxic chemical effects on organs.

and

5. Convincing evidence is available to indicate there is no health impacts to the Kosovo population associated with the use of depleted uranium.

But they don't. With the sematics they use, one can say basically anything and be completely right.

5. No convincing evidence is available to indicate any health impacts to the Kosovo population associated with the use of monkey-navigated rocket cars.

I'm not sure we're discussing the same things anymore. Either way, I think I've said what needs to be said.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, I alluded to the fact that slightly elevated radiation levels might be good for you. DU also presents a heavy metal toxicity risk, which I haven't talked about at all.

Fair enough.

I wasn't trying to misrepresent what you said. I just thought it was a humorous notion: like having a glass of wine a day is good for you - now you can have some DU, too!
 
kalen said:

2. Scientific and medical studies have not established a link between exposure to depleted uranium and the onset of cancers, congenital abnormalities or serious toxic chemical effects on organs. Caution has been expressed by some scientists who would like to see a larger body of independently (i.e. non-military) funded studies to confirm the current viewpoint.

and

5. No convincing evidence is available to indicate any health impacts to the Kosovo population associated with the use of depleted uranium.


Silly person. When you come across something you don't understand, or you don't have enough hard evidence to prove something scientifically, you are supposed to attribute the phenomenon to GOD (or maybe pixies), not depleted uranium. :rolleyes:
 

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