Merged Depleted uranium

[RandFan]

When a DU projectile hits a target, up to 70% of the DU combusts, bursting into dense black clouds of uranium-oxide particles - effectively creating a ceramic DU aerosol. Most of the particles are of respirable size (less than 10 microns), ie. they're small enough to be ingested via inhalation (as well as via open wounds of course, and they're even small enough to penetrate some gas masks), and can be carried long distances (25 miles or more) by the wind, before settling. They can then be resuspended again by wind or movement, and dispersed yet further again. They can also migrate long distances via the ground water table.

This ceramic formulation is significant, because it is highly insoluble in lung fluids, unlike the traditional uranium dust encountered by miners, which is rapidly excreted from the body. Once deposited in the lungs, kidneys or bone, DU particles generally remain in the body for many years. Indeed, veterans of the 1991 Gulf War are still passing DU in their urine to this day.

Got evidence?

 

[Ziggurat]

DU is primary U238, yes?

Than you should know that it emits alpha radiation as a part of its decay process.

This is correct. It is also correct that internal alpha radiation poses a greater health risk than external alpha radiation. However, the half life of U238 is over 4x10^9 years - almost the age of the earth. It is quite stable, with very low activity. That's a longer halflife than potasium 40 (1.3x10^9 years), a naturally occuring radioisotope that's present in your own body and most foods. But nobody worries about the radiation risk from eating potassium-rich foods. Yes, your skin doesn't shield you from alpha particles from ingested U238. But the dose rate is VERY low, unless you ingest huge quantities, in which case heavy metal toxicity is the primary threat anyways. U238, ingested or not, is not a significant radiation risk.

 

[Bruce]

Care to post some real counterarguments or science?

You have a very warped idea of what "real science" is.

That's a longer halflife than potasium 40 (1.3x10^9 years), a naturally occuring radioisotope that's present in your own body and most foods. But nobody worries about the radiation risk from eating potassium-rich foods. Yes, your skin doesn't shield you from alpha particles from ingested U238. But the dose rate is VERY low, unless you ingest huge quantities, in which case heavy metal toxicity is the primary threat anyways. U238, ingested or not, is not a significant radiation risk.

Countdown to accusations of Ziggurat believing in right-wing cover-up conspiracy theories, followed by more hollow evidence-less anti-DU links: 3....2....1.....

 

[thaiboxerken]

When a DU projectile hits a target, up to 70% of the DU combusts, bursting into dense black clouds of uranium-oxide particles - effectively creating a ceramic DU aerosol. Most of the particles are of respirable size (less than 10 microns), ie. they're small enough to be ingested via inhalation (as well as via open wounds of course, and they're even small enough to penetrate some gas masks), and can be carried long distances (25 miles or more) by the wind, before settling. They can then be resuspended again by wind or movement, and dispersed yet further again. They can also migrate long distances via the ground water table.

Please provide the science to support this claim. In fact, please provide the science to support any of your claims.

 

[aerocontrols]

Comparing the danger of radiation due to DU to actually dangerous radiological hazards is like comparing the danger of oxidizing hydrocarbons to the danger of oxydizing iron.


DU emits alpha radiation. Stay back! You might get radiation sickness.

Rusting iron emits thermal radiation. Stay back! You might get burned.

 

[Bruce]

DU emits alpha radiation. Stay back! You might get radiation sickness.

Rusting iron emits thermal radiation. Stay back! You might get burned.

And microwaves emit microwave radiation. Don't open that door before the time runs out! You'll get nuked!! My grandparents still believe that.

 

[AWPrime]

Got evidence?

Of which part do you want it?

 

[AWPrime]

This is correct. It is also correct that internal alpha radiation poses a greater health risk than external alpha radiation. However, the half life of U238 is over 4x10^9 years - almost the age of the earth. It is quite stable, with very low activity. That's a longer halflife than potasium 40 (1.3x10^9 years), a naturally occuring radioisotope that's present in your own body and most foods.

I need to look info up about P40. expect an edit.

Yes, your skin doesn't shield you from alpha particles from ingested U238. But the dose rate is VERY low, unless you ingest huge quantities, in which case heavy metal toxicity is the primary threat anyways. U238, ingested or not, is not a significant radiation risk.

I primarly consider inhaled U238-oxide. Most eaten DU leaves the body quite rapidly.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of which part do you want it?

How about that DU exposure at realistic levels poses any more radiation risk than the K40 that is in every single person's body for every single day of their entire life? That stuff is roughly as radioactive as U238, and it's present inside you in significant quantities all the time.

 

[Ziggurat]

I need to look info up about P40. expect an edit.

In case you have a hard time finding info, it's K40, not P40. Potassium is one of those elements where the symbol doesn't have any correspondance to the english word for the element.

 

[RandFan]

Of which part do you want it?

How about that which supports your conclusion?

 

[gnome]

I am rather disappointed with some voices here.

There are many accusations flying that people here are skeptical of DU warnings because of their political beliefs, or because they don't care about Iraqis.

This is a distinct logical fallacy called "poisoning the well". You must dispute the facts, not suppose a person's not credible because of a motive you invent for them.

There are liberals and conservatives alike here that find the threat questionable. At this point, I'm one of the liberals who are doubting the harm. Do you think I'm just blinding myself to it because "it's only Iraqi's after all?". You should ask whether you really believe that of most conservatives too.

 

[The Fool]

I am rather disappointed with some voices here.

There are many accusations flying that people here are skeptical of DU warnings because of their political beliefs, or because they don't care about Iraqis.

This is a distinct logical fallacy called "poisoning the well". You must dispute the facts, not suppose a person's not credible because of a motive you invent for them.

There are liberals and conservatives alike here that find the threat questionable. At this point, I'm one of the liberals who are doubting the harm. Do you think I'm just blinding myself to it because "it's only Iraqi's after all?". You should ask whether you really believe that of most conservatives too.

To me it seems obvious that the issue that clouds this is the use of DU by the American military.

As a Hypothetical if US road repair gangs started using DU tips on thier jackpicks which left detectible radioactive dust and fragments behind when they did a road repair what do you think would happen if the public found out about it? My suggestion would be that there would be an outrage followed by the immediate withdrawal of DU from work gangs and a comprehensive survey and cleanup of previous worksites.

Because it is the military using it then the issue of DU gets associated with the Issue of what the US military is doing...

My personal opinion is that any addition to the radiation load my body absorbes is undesirable. Anyone who wants to increase my radiation exposure will be politely told no thank you, choosing certain activities will increase my exposure but I will make that decision myself. I don't want someone spreading DU dust where I live and telling me not to be concerned....so niether am I happy with someone spreading du dust where other people live either.

 

[Mycroft]

I am rather disappointed with some voices here.

There are many accusations flying that people here are skeptical of DU warnings because of their political beliefs, or because they don't care about Iraqis.

This is a distinct logical fallacy called "poisoning the well". You must dispute the facts, not suppose a person's not credible because of a motive you invent for them.

There are liberals and conservatives alike here that find the threat questionable. At this point, I'm one of the liberals who are doubting the harm. Do you think I'm just blinding myself to it because "it's only Iraqi's after all?". You should ask whether you really believe that of most conservatives too.

I've been following the debate with some interest. I've heard about DU but never formed an opinion about it except that the voices against it seem kinda shrill and alarmist. Still, depleted uranium sounds dangerous...?

 

[Bruce]

My personal opinion is that any addition to the radiation load my body absorbes is undesirable. Anyone who wants to increase my radiation exposure will be politely told no thank you, choosing certain activities will increase my exposure but I will make that decision myself. I don't want someone spreading DU dust where I live and telling me not to be concerned....so niether am I happy with someone spreading du dust where other people live either.

Radioactive elements show up in places you wouldn't expect.

For example, gas lamp mantels. I thought it was a myth until the guy that came to inspect our gieger counter used one to test it. Years later, my research group was thinking about purchasing some thorium to help reduce the static in our dry boxes. The cost was about $100 due to the shipping regulations. I remembered about the gas lamp mantel trick, and went to Wal Mart. They come in little plastic bags for $2 a piece. No indication of radiation at all, but when I placed one on the geiger counter, it buried the needle!! We scattered a bunch of them around the dry box, but it didn't help reduce the static very much.

Another example is smoke detectors. I believe they also use Thorium. When smoke passes between the thorium and the detector, it sets off the alarm.

Can you imagine the public's reaction if gas lamp mantels and smoke detectors were labeled with radiation symbols? I'm actually a bit surprised that there hasn't been a public panic over these two products.

You have no way of detecting radiation from low level radioactive sources without a geiger counter. They don't glow, beep, stink, vibrate, or feel hot. The pet rock sitting on your desk could be chunk of uranium ore and you wouln't know it. Kinda makes you want to wear a tinfoil hat, doesn't it?

 

[RandFan]

As a Hypothetical if US road repair gangs started using DU tips on thier jackpicks which left detectible radioactive dust and fragments behind when they did a road repair what do you think would happen if the public found out about it? My suggestion would be that there would be an outrage followed by the immediate withdrawal of DU from work gangs and a comprehensive survey and cleanup of previous worksites.

Argumentum ad populum That's a great way to determine the validity of something, ask "what would the majority do?" Thanks Fool.

Because it is the military using it then the issue of DU gets associated with the Issue of what the US military is doing...

Yes, those things done by the military are associated by those things done by the military. Those things done by girl scouts gets associated with the issue of what the girl scouts are doing. Odd how that happens. Someone should commision a study.

My personal opinion is that any addition to the radiation load my body absorbes is undesirable.

That sounds reasonable.

Anyone who wants to increase my radiation exposure will be politely told no thank you...

So there will be no cinder block in the buildings where you work?

...choosing certain activities will increase my exposure but I will make that decision myself. I don't want someone spreading DU dust where I live and telling me not to be concerned....so niether am I happy with someone spreading du dust where other people live either.

Why do you only concentrate on DU? What about all of the other potentially harmful things that no one bothered to tell you about?

HOW DANGEROUS IS RADIATION?

But an irrational fear of radiation is difficult to combat through education. Two reasons for this are that radiation concerns are derived from primarily political motives and from health concerns.

The guy's got it all wrong. It seems that the skeptical bone isn't connected to the ass bone where all the thinking is done.

 

[The Fool]

Argumentum ad populum That's a great way to determine the validity of something, ask "what would the majority do?" Thanks Fool.

No it was the question of what you think the american public would force the american government to do if the issue was closer to home. Don't suppose you would like to give us your opinion. Would it be ok for road gangs to deave DU dust and fragments behind after road repairs?



Yes, those things done by the military are associated by those things done by the military. Those things done by girl scouts gets associated with the issue of what the girl scouts are doing. Odd how that happens. Someone should commision a study.

baiting ignored.


That sounds reasonable.

yes


So there will be no cinder block in the buildings where you work?

did you miss the bit about my personal choice?

Why do you only concentrate on DU? What about all of the other potentially harmful things that no one bothered to tell you about?

covered by my explanation.

The guy's got it all wrong. It seems that the skeptical bone isn't connected to the ass bone where all the thinking is done.
baiting ignored

 

[The Fool]

Radioactive elements show up in places you wouldn't expect.

For example, gas lamp mantels. I thought it was a myth until the guy that came to inspect our gieger counter used one to test it. Years later, my research group was thinking about purchasing some thorium to help reduce the static in our dry boxes. The cost was about $100 due to the shipping regulations. I remembered about the gas lamp mantel trick, and went to Wal Mart. They come in little plastic bags for $2 a piece. No indication of radiation at all, but when I placed one on the geiger counter, it buried the needle!! We scattered a bunch of them around the dry box, but it didn't help reduce the static very much.

Another example is smoke detectors. I believe they also use Thorium. When smoke passes between the thorium and the detector, it sets off the alarm.

Can you imagine the public's reaction if gas lamp mantels and smoke detectors were labeled with radiation symbols? I'm actually a bit surprised that there hasn't been a public panic over these two products.

You have no way of detecting radiation from low level radioactive sources without a geiger counter. They don't glow, beep, stink, vibrate, or feel hot. The pet rock sitting on your desk could be chunk of uranium ore and you wouln't know it. Kinda makes you want to wear a tinfoil hat, doesn't it?

I can't really see the point you are trying to make bruce...I have explained that I don't wish to have the radiation levels in my environment increased....seems a perfectly reasonable request. I am fully aware of the use of radioactive elements in common items but thanks anyway.

So untill you can convince me that DU dust and fragments make great coffee or give me a long lasting erection or do something truly usefull I'll still continue to say thanks but no thanks,please stop spreading this crap all over the place. I'll also continue to say it on behalf of all the other people you also want to pat on the head and patronise.
edited to add: I wasn't specifically saying bruce was patronising me I meant that the "calm down girls" attitude is often directed at people who politely decline increased irradiating...

 

[RandFan]

No it was the question of what you think the American public would force the American government to do if the issue was closer to home.

It is a fallacious argument. What the American public does or does not "think" will not change the facts. Do you even know what argument ad populum means? Your question would make a good example.

Don't suppose you would like to give us your opinion. Would it be ok for road gangs to deave DU dust and fragments behind after road repairs?

I have given you my answer now on other similar questions. Absent any evidence that it is dangerous I would not have a problem with it. I don't make decisions based on group think or hysteria. I prefer to make decisions based on evidence and critical thinking. I don't know, I'm funny that way.

baiting ignored.

It was an extremely dumb statement. It is what it is.

...did you miss the bit about my personal choice?

Do you request an environmental impact report of every potential building you might work in? How do you know that there are no similar substances in your building?

covered by my explanation.

On the contrary. Your lack of concern about all of the other equally and perhaps more dangerous things belies your singular concern about this issue.

baiting ignored

Yes, and ignore the point that facts and education don't quell irrational fears about radiation.

 

[The Fool]

It is a fallacious argument. What the American public does or does not "think" will not change the facts.

That is true...but what the american public thinks can most definitely change what the American government does. If you think that you can successfully convince the american public that a little bit more radiation is not a problem then by all means go ahead...



Do you even know what argument ad populum means? Your question would make a good example.

I do....can you tell the difference between argument ad populum and what I wrote?


I have given you my answer now on other similar questions. Absent any evidence that it is dangerous I would not have a problem with it. I don't make decisions based on group think or hysteria. I prefer to make decisions based on evidence and critical thinking. I don't know, I'm funny that way.

you don't believe there is any evidence it is dangerous? Why all the safe handling procedures?

It was an extremely dumb statement. It is what it is.

further baiting ignored.

Do you request an environmental impact report of every potential building you might work in? How do you know that there are no similar substances in your building?

I don't....see my previous explanation regarding personal choice and cumulative exposure.

On the contrary. Your lack of concern about all of the other equally and perhaps more dangerous things belies your singular concern about this issue.

I have no concern about other radioactive products being spread about? glad you told me.

Yes, and ignore the point that facts and education don't quell irrational fears about radiation.

question....will inhalation of DU dust increase decrease or make no difference to my radiation dosage?

question....is an increase to my radiation dosage desirable?

question...is it irrational to not want to increase my radiation dosage?