Crop circle debunking help needed

[Pixel42]

Farmers are businessmen. They aren't going to spend money and time if they don't get a decent reward.

And if someone does happen to make a crop circle on their land they can charge people to look at it, so it's still no loss.

I've lived in Wiltshire for 23 years and I've never seen a crop circle, let alone someone making one. It's nearly 1500 square miles, almost all rural.

 

[23_Tauri]

It's like shapes we've seen in churches and temples for a very long time. Can we get back to my example?

I'd say the builders of churches and temples use pretty much any angle or resultant shape that is useful in architecture, masonry, carpentry etc. Except, funnily enough, a heptagon, or heptagram, unless they were doing something very unusual and fancy, because seven-sided shapes aren't particularly useful for building chairs, altars, corners and such like. Seven sided figures are rarely found in the natural or man-made world. It's use in coins, such as the British 50p and 20p pieces, is specifically because it makes the coins easier to identify in a pocket of loose change, or for the partially sighted.

And finally, as I already mentioned, the heptagon is not one of the platonic solids. The Ancient Greeks thought that the five platonic solids were the building blocks of the physical world. This is, I believe, why some modern New Agers refer to them as 'sacred' geometry.

 

[23_Tauri]

I swear to God or y'all I can catch them mofos.

You still haven't demonstrated how.

I still don't like the fact that one more mouth could be fed.

So how much crop is actually lost through the making of a crop circle, chuck?

I ain't no economics major.

You don't say.

I just know it aint right.

Even though some of the Wiltshire farmers who get many cc's on their land each summer put up honesty boxes, thereby re-couping enough money from visitors to more than pay for any loss of crop, and often more than that. This money can then be re-invested back into the business to increase yields in the future, so feeding more mouths!

Get a friggin job and do something with your life.

Now there's no need for insults. Remember where you are.

 

[Stray Cat]

I was trying to make it easy on you

No, what you are doing is making a claim and when challenged about it, you're not actually outlining what claim you are making.

But in the interest of advancing the discussion. We'll forget the sacred geometry nonsense for now and concentrate on how to make a Heptagon using nothing more than a compass and straight edge, or in the field it would be nothing more than a length of pre stretched string or surveyors tape which can used for both providing a straight edge (by stretching it out in a straight line with a person holding each end) and a compass (by stretching it out in a staight line using one person to anchor a pivot point whilst the other walks the arch described by the length of the tape/string).

Are you following this so far?

 

[chuck4842]

No, what you are doing is making a claim and when challenged about it, you're not actually outlining what claim you are making.

But in the interest of advancing the discussion. We'll forget the sacred geometry nonsense for now and concentrate on how to make a Heptagon using nothing more than a compass and straight edge, or in the field it would be nothing more than a length of pre stretched string or surveyors tape which can used for both providing a straight edge (by stretching it out in a straight line with a person holding each end) and a compass (by stretching it out in a staight line using one person to anchor a pivot point whilst the other walks the arch described by the length of the tape/string).

[qimg]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Approximated_Heptagon_Inscribed_in_a_Circle.gif[/qimg]

Are you following this so far?

That is really neato awesomeness, but if you started with a circle, for reference and construction, how do you erase it at the end so just a septagon remains? I do realize you wouldn't have to erase the sides facing the inside of the final formation.

 

[zooterkin]

That is really neato awesomeness, but if you started with a circle, for reference and construction, how do you erase it at the end so just a septagon remains? I do realize you wouldn't have to erase the sides facing the inside of the final formation.

Where does it say that you have to actually trample down a circle first?

 

[Lamuella]

That is really neato awesomeness, but if you started with a circle, for reference and construction, how do you erase it at the end so just a septagon remains? I do realize you wouldn't have to erase the sides facing the inside of the final formation.

you don't trample the circle down. The circle simply represents all points that are a fixed distance from a particular point.

 

[Stray Cat]

That is really neato awesomeness, but if you started with a circle, for reference and construction, how do you erase it at the end so just a septagon remains? I do realize you wouldn't have to erase the sides facing the inside of the final formation.

So I take it that you're not following it so far?

The circle can actually be put down as a footline, it will fall in the stomped area when the formation is complete and will not be seen.
The animation above simply shows how you can make a heptagon without needing to measure angles or distances. I can continue with the demonstration but only when you are following what is actually going on. (I'm not going to waste my time if you're not understanding it).

So to recap; What you see above is the outline which we are going to construct the smaller pairs of heptagons around. All you really need to make permanent marks of is the circle and the 7 points around it's circumference.

 

[jond]

At this point I am convinced that if Chuck were brought out on a lovely summer's eve in Wiltshire, he'd come back and say "that was cool! But it doesn't mean this other formation wasn't made by aliens." All hope for reason and rational thought has gone out the window.

But please, Stray Cat, keep on doing what you're doing--it's fantastic!

 

[zooterkin]

So I take it that you're not following it so far?

The circle can actually be put down as a footline, it will fall in the stomped area when the formation is complete and will not be seen.
The animation above simply shows how you can make a heptagon without needing to measure angles or distances. I can continue with the demonstration but only when you are following what is actually going on. (I'm not going to waste my time if you're not understanding it).

So to recap; What you see above is the outline which we are going to construct the smaller pairs of heptagons around. All you really need to make permanent marks of is the circle and the 7 points around it's circumference.

You could also do it with the Pharaoh's two planks of wood nailed together at the appropriate angle, and a couple of bits of string. Mark the diameter, stand at the centre with the bits of wood, and mark the points on the circumference in turn; do you actually need to mark the circumference itself?

 

[Stray Cat]

You could also do it with the Pharaoh's two planks of wood nailed together at the appropriate angle, and a couple of bits of string. Mark the diameter, stand at the centre with the bits of wood, and mark the points on the circumference in turn; do you actually need to mark the circumference itself?

You don't need to mark the circumference no. But as there is no reason not to and as it gives you an easy way to negotiate around the formation as you are contructing it (rather than having to walk up and down long lengths of tram line) it is much easier to put down a footline.

Yes a pre-constructed protractor could be made as Akhenaten has shown, but as the job can be done without one, there is no need to go to such trouble. Indeed over recent years, circlemakers have started employing lazer protractors such as this one, but 14 years ago, this tech was really too expensive and cumbersome.

 

[catsmate]

I'd say the builders of churches and temples use pretty much any angle or resultant shape that is useful in architecture, masonry, carpentry etc. Except, funnily enough, a heptagon, or heptagram, unless they were doing something very unusual and fancy, because seven-sided shapes aren't particularly useful for building chairs, altars, corners and such like. Seven sided figures are rarely found in the natural or man-made world. It's use in coins, such as the British 50p and 20p pieces, is specifically because it makes the coins easier to identify in a pocket of loose change, or for the partially sighted.

Technically they're Reuleaux heptagons, formed with circles inscribed inside the heptagon. Like circles they roll due to their constant width.
Trivia: other than Britain (and formerly Ireland) Reuleaux heptagons were used for coinage in Cyprus (pre-Euro) and are still used in Botswana, which has the most coinage denominations using that shape (four; 1 and 2 Pula and 5 and 25 Thebe).
We now return you to your scheduled crop circles.

 

[zooterkin]

You don't need to mark the circumference no. But as there is no reason not to and as it gives you an easy way to negotiate around the formation as you are contructing it (rather than having to walk up and down long lengths of tram line) it is much easier to put down a footline.

Yes a pre-constructed protractor could be made as Akhenaten has shown, but as the job can be done without one, there is no need to go to such trouble. Indeed over recent years, circlemakers have started employing lazer protractors such as this one, but 14 years ago, this tech was really too expensive and cumbersome.

Fair enough, I bow to your greater experience. As far as I could see, it was possible to use the fixed angle, and not mark out the circumference, which you have confirmed; but I was also prepared to believe that the practicalities of one method might take precedence over the apparent simplicity of another when out, literally, in the field.

 

[Stray Cat]

Fair enough, I bow to your greater experience. As far as I could see, it was possible to use the fixed angle, and not mark out the circumference, which you have confirmed; but I was also prepared to believe that the practicalities of one method might take precedence over the apparent simplicity of another when out, literally, in the field.

I'll also point out that I'm not saying this is how it was made.
This is simply one method that could have been used.

In other words, I'm not saying people did make it, I'm just showing a method by which people could make it. If anyone wants then to show how anything other than people could make it, I'm all ears.

 

[23_Tauri]

Technically they're Reuleaux heptagons, formed with circles inscribed inside the heptagon. Like circles they roll due to their constant width.
Trivia: other than Britain (and formerly Ireland) Reuleaux heptagons were used for coinage in Cyprus (pre-Euro) and are still used in Botswana, which has the most coinage denominations using that shape (four; 1 and 2 Pula and 5 and 25 Thebe).
We now return you to your scheduled crop circles.

I love this forum!

 

[SusanB-M1]

Don't forget to include in your analysis the money farmers make from honesty boxes, and revenue for local pubs, restaurants and Bed and Breakfast hostelries from visitors attracted to crop circles each summer.

And of course, as I have mentioned before, the microlight pilots, photographers, publishers of books and calendars ....

 

[SusanB-M1]

I've lived in Wiltshire for 23 years and I've never seen a crop circle, let alone someone making one. It's nearly 1500 square miles, almost all rural.

Try the SCCSG page and contact Olivier Morel, photographer, who organises visits to crop circles in the summer!

 

[catsmate]

I love this forum!

Thank you
I don't get to show off my knowledge of Reuleaux's polygons very often.

 

[phunk]

No, what you are doing is making a claim and when challenged about it, you're not actually outlining what claim you are making.

But in the interest of advancing the discussion. We'll forget the sacred geometry nonsense for now and concentrate on how to make a Heptagon using nothing more than a compass and straight edge, or in the field it would be nothing more than a length of pre stretched string or surveyors tape which can used for both providing a straight edge (by stretching it out in a straight line with a person holding each end) and a compass (by stretching it out in a staight line using one person to anchor a pivot point whilst the other walks the arch described by the length of the tape/string).

[qimg]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Approximated_Heptagon_Inscribed_in_a_Circle.gif[/qimg]

Are you following this so far?

There's a much easier way to get the angle you need without anything more complicated than a tape measure and a calculator. Does no one remember sohcahtoa? All you need is three pieces of rope measured out in advance and you can lay out the angle as fast as you can pull the ropes taught.

 

[Stray Cat]

There's a much easier way to get the angle you need without anything more complicated than a tape measure and a calculator. Does no one remember sohcahtoa? All you need is three pieces of rope measured out in advance and you can lay out the angle as fast as you can pull the ropes taught.

Circlemakers rarely use actual numbers.
The way I'm demonstrating contains no use what so ever for any numbers, but like I already said, this in only one way of doing it.