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Chris Rufo

I don't think that is true. My understanding is that DEI is more of a liberal integrationist approachsimilar to affirmative action from the Civil Rights era, but also co-opted by consultants and corporations partly as a way of preventing government intervention and regulation. DEI inclusivity of course involves or is inclusive of such things as disability which has nothing to do with race.

Pretty much. It is companies putting someone from HR in charge of highlighting their "diversity" in the company newsletter. It has little, if any, effect on actual hiring or promotions or anything like that.
 
Trying to point to anodyne corporate diversity webinars as evidence for “CRT” is akin to defending Deep State conspiracy theories with the existence of bureaucracy. It’s an egregious motte-and-bailey argument.
 
I don't think that is true. My understanding is that DEI is more of a liberal integrationist approachsimilar to affirmative action from the Civil Rights era, but also co-opted by consultants and corporations partly as a way of preventing government intervention and regulation. DEI inclusivity of course involves or is inclusive of such things as disability which has nothing to do with race.


No. DEI is simply institutional CRT, or more generally, CSJ (but it's mostly about race). DEI is hardly an anti-government measurement, as DEI has been adopted by the federal government itself. Most, if not (yet) all, government agencies that fund scientific research now require every proposal to include a DEI plan, to devote part of the budget to advance the goals of DEI, to demonstrate how the research group and the institution are committed to DEI, and to show how the research itself will advanced the aims of DEI (I'm currently part of a group of scientists authoring a paper documenting this). This includes even fundamental physics. Somehow, particle physicists have to explain how their research will benefit those identity groups favored by the DEI/CSJ ideology.

Pincourt clearly and concisely explains the relationship of DEI to CSJ here.
 
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No. DEI is simply institutional CRT, or more generally, CSJ (but it's mostly about race). DEI is hardly an anti-government measurement, as DEI has been adopted by the federal government itself. Most, if not (yet) all, government agencies that fund scientific research now require every proposal to include a DEI plan, to devote part of the budget to advance the goals of DEI, to demonstrate how the research group and the institution are committed to DEI, and to show how the research itself will advanced the aims of DEI (I'm currently part of a group of scientists authoring a paper documenting this). This includes even fundamental physics. Somehow, particle physicists have to explain how their research will benefit those identity groups favored by the DEI/CSJ ideology.

Pincourt clearly and concisely explains the relationship of DEI to CSJ here.


Here is the thing. From what I can see from that article, Critical Social Justice is an umbrella term used by its critics rather than by the ones promoting it. In this case, it might be similar to how the word "woke" is currently used, or for those who prefer a less gauche term, "identity synthesis" in Mounk's vocabulary. On the other hand, critical race theory is specifically used by its proponents, so it is much easier to evaluate in terms of what it stands for or not.

Pincourt there has two sentences that describes DEI. I think the first is likely to be what its practitioners are trying to do and the second is what some of the loonier fringes are trying to achieve.

"soft" DEI:

DEI is typically described as a way to bring a wider variety of “voices” into science, particularly the voices of historically oppressed identities (women, blacks, transgendered, and others). This is the polished and laudable aim of DEI and its initiatives. If this were the only thing that DEI initiatives proposed and implied, then I would not be penning this essay.

"hard" DEI:

It is because science is considered inherently and irredeemably racist that diversity, equity, and inclusion are used to advocate for increased representation in science of historically oppressed identities, at the expense (implicitly or explicitly) of historically oppressor identities (whites, Europeans, and males). As a result, DEI and its initiatives are retributive. The intention of righting historical wrongs is used as a justification to enact current discrimination.

In my own field, I have seen people of both stripes. A former co-worker of mine noticed that in my university there were very few women in our department, and her own experiences of attending interviews for the jobs seem to point to why that is. The university wanted her to be able to work hours which would make it hard for her to pick up her daughter from school, or attend PTA events which she, as a mother in Japan, is expected to do far more than her husband. From her point of view there is systemic discrimination * against women. She is easily as qualified as other people in the department, but she finds it more difficult to get work. As a result, she has been quite active in the fledgling diversity area of our field. It is not yet an incorporated feature of the university system in Japan, I don't think, but if I go to conferences, there will be plenty of talk of it.

On top of that, I tend to find that jobs in the field are not really given according to merit. There is a baseline threshold that someone needs to pass (number of publications of literally any standard and a simple masters degree is often enough), but after that it becomes a case of who you know, not what you know. This is the old boys' network, the old school tie, etc... In such situations, it can't be that surprising if the people getting most of the jobs tend to be buddies with similar interests, etc... And quelle surprise, there is often an overlap in terms of ethnicity and gender.

For me, this "soft" DEI makes sense. An effort to raise awareness of biases that might have nothing to do with ability. Shouldn't there be ways of overcoming this kind of thing?

However, I also know opponents of this simple soft DEI. Guess what, there are people who are from, say, Canada, who have nothing more than a BA, but assume that the woman from India with a PhD who gets the job instead of him is a "diversity hire".

*Funnily enough systemic discrimination is a term that is often laughed at as if it was stupid on its face. I used to think something similar.

Now, in terms of "hard" DEI, I also have no doubt that some of the people involved with this are also the people who have pulled long and hard on the Post-Modern bong, and I see some of them also active in the same areas. They try to do intellectual gymnastics which make literally no sense and make logically incoherent statements such as "There is no such thing as truth" (Is that true? Doh!), "Science is racist!" (well then you won't want a racist job, I assume!).

One of the most "hilarious" things I have noticed recently is that an area that I have looked at called code-switching is now considered illegitimate. Code-switching is simply switching from one language to another, or perhaps one register to another, but this has recently been challenged by an idea called... wait for it... translanguaging.

There are strong and weak forms of this term. The weak form is essentially redundant, being the same in meaning as code-switching, but the strong form asserts that languages are cultural constructs (true enough), but that the conclusion from this is that there are no such thing as actual languages (false conclusion in my opinion). They consider the word language as a noun to be illegitimate, and instead use language as a verb! The idea is that by throwing off the shackles of "named languages" (you know, made up things like "English", "Spanish", "Russian" etc...) students in English classrooms can empower themselves to overthrow the oppressors (or something idiotic like that). Of course, what the proponents don't seem to understand is that by trashing the very idea of "named languages" as purely created by dominant power structures, they also throw other named languages such as American Indian languages or Ainu under the bus. Why bother trying to rescue these languages from extinction if they are not even real things and probably invented by the patriachy anyway?

Also, if the term to language is being used, then what does it even mean to translanguage? Presumaly translanguaging is going from one language to another, but that is the very thing that has been undermined.

Anyway, that is a bit of a digression, but I only bring it up because whereas before I had seen the idea of translanguaging used in papers, I saw it used in the wild for the first time by one of the proponents of "hard" DEI.

This is probably a long-winded way of saying that I partially agree, but I think there is a better and more nuanced discussion to have in which certain forms of DEI might be useful and certain forms (Kendi and DiAngelo) are pure nonsense.
 
as a layman who knows almost nothing of it, whenever i read criticism of crt or dei i always get the impression that most people strongly opposed to them have much more of a cable news version of understanding rather than academic version of it.
 
as a layman who knows almost nothing of it, whenever i read criticism of crt or dei i always get the impression that most people strongly opposed to them have much more of a cable news version of understanding rather than academic version of it.

And that is literally Christopher Rufo's aim. Which he states clearly in his tweets, in his interviews and in his debates.
 
And that is literally Christopher Rufo's aim. Which he states clearly in his tweets, in his interviews and in his debates.

as a layman who knows almost nothing of it, whenever i read criticism of crt or dei i always get the impression that most people strongly opposed to them have much more of a cable news version of understanding rather than academic version of it.

I agree with Angrysoba on Rufo's aim but I do think there are legit criticism of stuff labeled as DEI and CRT. A lot of DEI encourages folks to think of themselves as say, white first. Which seems like a terrible idea. The thing where schools are separating folks into affinity groups while rare is pretty disturbing. The way folks like Ibram X Kendi and Robin DeAngeles see the US at least seems as though its essentially irredeemable and the seem to see white people as irreperable. I don't see much good coming from that.

Regarding CRT, there seem to be two academic version, a more philosophical version and a more legal verions, the legal version seems to have lot more useful to say than the philosophical version.
 
And that is literally Christopher Rufo's aim. Which he states clearly in his tweets, in his interviews and in his debates.

Yes he has this nefarious plan to undermine DEI by calling it CRT, and he admits it openly, and nobody sees it except those opposed to him.
:rolleyes:
 
Yes he has this nefarious plan to undermine DEI by calling it CRT, and he admits it openly, and nobody sees it except those opposed to him.
:rolleyes:

Granted noted left wing web site reason but:
https://reason.com/2023/07/21/how-chris-rufo-became-the-thing-he-hates/

But elsewhere Rufo has openly admitted to transvaluating the values of the left himself. As he explained in a series of tweets, his goal has been to take the narrow concept of "critical race theory" and "recodify it to annex the entire range of cultural constructions that are unpopular with Americans." Whenever ordinary people "read something crazy in the newspaper"—whether about civil rights or trans rights—Rufo wants them to "immediately think 'critical race theory" and thus "toxify" the brands of left-wing movements. In other words, Rufo is hollowing out the original meaning of the phrase "critical race theory" and filling it with content that is politically useful to him in direct proportion to how misleading it is to the public. He would do unto others precisely what he claims they are doing unto him.

I'm fairly sympathic to arguments against the current progressive takes on race and trans issues, but Rufo has just poisoned the conversation by using CRT as a marketing term for things he doesn't like.
 
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Yes he has this nefarious plan to undermine DEI by calling it CRT, and he admits it openly, and nobody sees it except those opposed to him.
:rolleyes:

That's not what I said his plan is. Try reading again what he said and see if you can tell the difference...

The goal is to have the public read something crazy in the newspaper and immediately think "critical race theory." We have decodified the term and will recodify it to annex the entire range of cultural constructions that are unpopular with Americans.

In other words, he is not saying DEI is CRT. What he's saying is that those who agree with him will do that. You are proving him and me to be correct. So, I am representing his views correctly, why not do me the courtesy of doing the same for me instead of misrepresenting what I have said and then doing one of those fatuous eye-roll smileys to show how annoyed you are with my misrepresented views. Could you try that, please? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here is what I said...

My understanding is that DEI is more of a liberal integrationist approach similar to affirmative action from the Civil Rights era, but also co-opted by consultants and corporations partly as a way of preventing government intervention and regulation. DEI inclusivity of course involves or is inclusive of such things as disability which has nothing to do with race.

In other words, yes, some of it is related to race, and no doubt some of that includes some of the more ridiculous and probably ineffective platitudes that people are supposed to spout in order to get work, research funding which may indeed end up having the counterproductive effect of discriminating against people who are qualified, from a "diverse" background but who might not be steeped in the language of identity politics that, say, a white person from a liberal middle class background might be. I think the example of Yoel Inbar is a good one. He argued that DEI statements were worse than useless simply because they did not result in more diversity and was, presumably, refused a job as a result. He talked about it on the Very Bad Wizards podcast.

That said, I pointed out certain areas where there can indeed be imbalances in the chances of students and teachers being able to get into certain universities and think there is a genuine reason for wanting there to be ways to redress that.

Almost everyone at least says they agree with that.

Pincourt says he agrees with that.
I assume, but don't know, that jt512 agrees with this.
Maybe you, Brainster, agree with this.
The governor of Oklahoma who signed an executive order to ban DEI departments in public schools and universities says he agrees with this.

Look...

On Wednesday Kevin Stitt, Oklahoma’s governor, signed an executive order in effect banning diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) programs at agencies and public colleges and universities across the state.

The order prohibits them from using state funds, property or resources towards DEI initiatives and orders them to dismiss “non-critical personnel”. It is effective immediately, but institutions are expected to comply no later than 31 May 2024.

...

The governor also said that Oklahoma should focus on supporting low-income and first-generation students instead of supporting students based on their race. However, DEI programs typically provide support not only for students from marginalized communities, but also for veterans, low-income students, first-generation students, single parents and students with disabilities.

Link

So the Oklahoma governor says he wants support for low-income students. I am sure we can agree with him on that, right?
Right, jt512?

Right, Brainster? :rolleyes:

Yet according to the article, the governor has axed the part of the university that does support them, as well as veterans, single mothers and students with disabilities. Now, I don't want to sound cynical here, but I have seen the movie before where a conservative politician says something to the effect of "Why are we spending money on X when we could be spending it on Y?" Everyone agrees that yes, indeed, spending money on Y would be a good idea, but the politician in question has, shock horror!, no intention of spending the money on Y at all.

So, if you are going to write an article, jt512, documenting the excesses of DEI then I think it would be a good idea not to simply repeat what Pincourt is saying, otherwise your article will be superfluous, but to state the areas of DEI that are specifically harmful (hey, if you want to get rid of speaker fees for Kendi and DiAngelo I expect that would make a lot of sense! Or statements about funding and research and how it makes no sense to waste time on them), but also look into areas where DEI apparently does make a difference to people who otherwise would make perfectly good students or faculty members who get overlooked because of their minority, low-income, gender, or other personal circumstances. I think that would make your argument stronger.
 
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Granted noted left wing web site reason but:
https://reason.com/2023/07/21/how-chris-rufo-became-the-thing-he-hates/

I'm fairly sympathic to arguments against the current progressive takes on race and trans issues, but Rufo has just poisoned the conversation by using CRT as a marketing term for things he doesn't like.

Maybe putting it all under the umbrella of CRT is incorrect; I note that Pincourt defines it as Critical Social Justice, which does get around the fact that it is not solely about race.

ETA: Reason is not a left-wing site; it's mostly small-l libertarian.
 
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Maybe putting it all under the umbrella of CRT is incorrect; I note that Pincourt defines it as Critical Social Justice, which does get around the fact that it is not solely about race.

Of course it isn't correct, but as I said, that's what Rufo wanted people to do. As we can see in this very thread, Rufo has been effective at doing just this.

And yes, his being open about it doesn't stop people doing exactly that.
 
Maybe putting it all under the umbrella of CRT is incorrect; I note that Pincourt defines it as Critical Social Justice, which does get around the fact that it is not solely about race.

ETA: Reason is not a left-wing site; it's mostly small-l libertarian.

That part of my post was tongue-cheek.
 
Speaking of small-l libertarian, I can assume that Christopher Rufo is anything but.

I meant to post this before, but in response to Michael Shermer saying that the GOP's recent campaigns to ban IVF (in states such as Alabama, Louisiana and Tennessee) will probably also lead to bans on the pill, etc.. Rufo pipes up with...

So what? The pill causes health problems for many women. "Recreational sex" is a large part of the reason we have so many single-mother households, which drives poverty, crime, and dysfunction. The point of sex is to create children—this is natural, normal, and good.

Link
 
So he thinks there are too many single mothers and his idea is to ban the thing that prevents them being single mothers in the first place?


I can't help but wonder when are they start going making mandatory female genital mutilation. I mean women shouldn't be allowed to have sex unless it's for the purpose of having children with a husband. A male husband. One that they approve for her. Preferably white.
 
So he thinks there are too many single mothers and his idea is to ban the thing that prevents them being single mothers in the first place?


I can't help but wonder when are they start going making mandatory female genital mutilation. I mean women shouldn't be allowed to have sex unless it's for the purpose of having children with a husband. A male husband. One that they approve for her. Preferably white.

Yeah, he is a religious nut and no doubt he believes that if the good LORD wanted women to have children he would let the seed grow in their womb, and should the womb be barren or the man's seed be not potent, then it is not for man to intervene with Satanic science.

I mean, I remember reading someone doing a reductio ad absurdum on the abortion debate arguing that, "well if you are against abortion, you have to be against IVF which would be like the death camps for embryos" the assumption being that nobody would be against it. But here we are with the red state's biting the bullet.

Of course, Rufo is almost certainly in favour of banning contraception of all forms and getting back to trad life. The divergence from trad life has of course displeased Jesus.

Oh, and Jesus Christ, have you noticed how many of the old atheists who jumped the anti-woke train are now becoming religious? Ayaan Hirshi Ali, Micheal Shellenberger, Russell Brand (!), Jordan Hall (who? Never mind, he's pretty terrible). I know some podcasters have been betting that James Lindsay converts to Christianity soon. Probably any day soon.
 
Oh, and Jesus Christ, have you noticed how many of the old atheists who jumped the anti-woke train are now becoming religious? Ayaan Hirshi Ali, Micheal Shellenberger, Russell Brand (!), Jordan Hall (who? Never mind, he's pretty terrible). I know some podcasters have been betting that James Lindsay converts to Christianity soon. Probably any day soon.

Brand specifically was always talking some spiritualism woo-woo.
Also, wasn't he accused very recently on multiple issues of sexual assault and\or misconduct? Remarkably that goes hand in hand with finding Jesus.

As for Lohan, that's hardly a surprise. We know that many sobriety programs are meant to convert people to religion. She had more than her fair share of those. Even Brand noted that his shift had to do with his time in AA.

I'm sad to say that other than them, I had to look who those other names were. From the very quick google scan I did for them -

Both Ayaan Hirshi Ali and Shellenberger seem to be more on the line of "Christianity is the problem to today's society" (both almost had the same phrase in their Wikipedia entry. Not sure if says about them or the author of the pages).
It's essentially the whole "us" and "them" mentality that drives the entire world nuts. You have to fit in one box or the other and thus must take everything in the box.


Jordan Hall - I found multiple people with that name. So not sure which one you mean.
 
A lot of those celebrity atheists were rich white guys who were big shots in their fields. A lot of their atheism wasn't about specific issues about the effects of religion or any actual thought about the existence of God, but rather the fact they wanted to do drugs and have the type of sex they liked. Their positions regarding things like gender and race typically fell well within the bounds of what was acceptable to the traditional institutions they were supposedly rebelling against. Their true colors started to show as soon as someone who wasn't an old white guy with the right connections started speaking up and correcting them.

that's how someone like [insert person we thought was cool 10 years ago] can be a racist transphobic *******. In the end, he's an old, rich white guy.
 

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