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Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

jeremyp said:
No it isn't. I think you need to look up the definition of "real".
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Dictionary.com doesn't support your assertion that something is "real" only if it exists in the physical world. The medium in which something exists is irrelevant to the definition.

Text documents, pictures, videos etc are all examples of things that may only exist digitally (even if they can be printed). Are you going to argue that they are "just a number" and are not real?

jeremyp said:
Mining is creating new bitcoins.
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Only in the most semantical sense possible. The fact remains that nobody can change the total number that are "unlocked" at any one time. Lost wallets don't equate to "destruction" of bitcoin any more than lost gold equates to the destruction of that gold. As for creating a new fork with a different potential total in existence, that is setting up a new crypto-currency. It is not changing the existing number of BTC (even if they try to give the new crypto the same name).

jeremyp said:
No, the reason why I say it is just a number is because I do understand the technology.
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Being able to google the mechanics of how the algorithm works doesn't equate to understanding the technology.
 
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psionl0 said:
Dictionary.com doesn't support your assertion that something is "real" only if it exists in the physical world. The medium in which something exists is irrelevant to the definition.

Text documents, pictures, videos etc are all examples of things that may only exist digitally (even if they can be printed). Are you going to argue that they are "just a number" and are not real?
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Numbers are real but they are abstract objects. Bitcoin no more than a number. Nothing more, nothing less.

psionl0 said:
Only in the most semantical sense possible. The fact remains that nobody can change the total number that are "unlocked" at any one time.
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Yes they can. When people mine: new bitcoins are literally created out of nothing.

psionl0 said:
Lost wallets don't equate to "destruction" of bitcoin any more than lost gold equates to the destruction of that gold.
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Lost, forever or destroyed - it amounts to the same thing.


psionl0 said:
As for creating a new fork with a different potential total in existence, that is setting up a new crypto-currency. It is not changing the existing number of BTC (even if they try to give the new crypto the same name).
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Doesn't even need a new fork. If there is a consensus amongst more than half of the mining power, the software can be changed. If I craft a transaction in which the outputs exceed the inputs, it will get rejected. But if I can persuade enough of the miners to change their software so it doesn't get rejected, then it will be accepted into a block and put in the block chain. You may say "hey, this transaction is invalid" but there will be nothing you can do about it because the miners will be adding more blocks into the chain after that block. All you need is enough mining power that agrees that my transaction is valid to squash any attempts and forking the chain before the block my transaction is in.


psionl0 said:
Being able to google the mechanics of how the algorithm works doesn't equate to understanding the technology.
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Well then your first step should be to Google how the blockchain and transactions work and that will set you on the road to understanding the technology.
 
i suppose one could simply copy the code and create their own crypto if they wanted more bitcoin and get rid of that pesky scarcity problem. maybe trade those coins with bitcoin freely.

anyone ever tried that before? how does that go?
 
dirtywick said:
i suppose one could simply copy the code and create their own crypto if they wanted more bitcoin and get rid of that pesky scarcity problem. maybe trade those coins with bitcoin freely.

anyone ever tried that before? how does that go?
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They would need to add it to the Bitcoin blockchain. Impossible. It is much easier to create a new blockchain and try to get people to buy this new cryptocurrency.
 
jeremyp said:
If there is a consensus amongst more than half of the mining power, the software can be changed.
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That's an "if pigs could fly" argument. There will never be a consensus to change the total number of bitcoins in existence nor the formula for the rate at which bitcoins are unlocked.

jeremyp said:
Well then your first step should be to Google how the blockchain and transactions work and that will set you on the road to understanding the technology.
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Googling clearly didn't help you understand anything.
 
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i don't think it's if pigs could fly argument. mining will naturally consolidate into fewer and fewer hands of the largest and most efficient miners, and less will enter due to the increasing start up costs
 
dirtywick said:
i don't think it's if pigs could fly argument. mining will naturally consolidate into fewer and fewer hands of the largest and most efficient miners, and less will enter due to the increasing start up costs
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Even if that were true (it isn't) and even if a coordinated group of miners gained more than 50% of the total mining power expended, it doesn't mean that they would attempt to change the algorithm to dilute the supply of bitcoins.
 
dirtywick said:
in any case, why wouldn’t they change the algorithm to whatever suits them? the fact that it’s possible at all is notable
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If the majority miners created a new fork with more bitcoins, how can they be sure that the wider bitcoin community would switch to this new fork? It's a risk to their income stream that they wouldn't take.
 
steenkh said:
Really? Every Bitcoin is a computer program? Where is it executed?

(Real question: I don't know)
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bitcoins are the tokens being moved around in the program. the program sets the rules for how many tokens there are and how they are traded between the wallets. it’s decentralized, meaning it’s database is maintained by a network of individual computers running the program and verifying the transactions. then you start getting into blocks and consensus

you can get pretty into the weeds this stuff. obviously there are more detailed and accurate versions of how it works and i’d encourage you to seek them out

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my main criticism of why bitcoin is bad going way back pretty much boils down to the way these rules are coded. the fact that the rules are extremely difficult to change doesn’t help
 
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dirtywick said:
bitcoins are the tokens being moved around in the program. the program sets the rules for how many tokens there are and how they are traded between the wallets. it’s decentralized, meaning it’s database is maintained by a network of individual computers running the program and verifying the transactions. then you start getting into blocks and consensus

you can get pretty into the weeds this stuff. obviously there are more detailed and accurate versions of how it works and i’d encourage you to seek them out
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Thanks. But it also seems that my original impression that Bitcoin is not a program was correct, as the highlighted part shows.
 
steenkh said:
Thanks. But it also seems that my original impression that Bitcoin is not a program was correct, as the highlighted part shows.
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it doesn’t really exist outside of the computer program it’s a part of. it’s a piece of the code within the program. and bitcoin encompasses the code that allows the network to exist as much as it is a number on a ledger. so i don’t really think your impression is accurate.

but whatever, neither here nor there.
 
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steenkh said:
Really? Every Bitcoin is a computer program? Where is it executed?

(Real question: I don't know)
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Bitcoin is a computer program like online banking is a computer program.

The comparison is not exact though. Bitcoin's software is decentralized whereas online banking transfers are controlled by central software operated by the bank.

As for the asset (bitcoin) itself, you have already seen a bunch of semantic arguments about its existence.
 
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