Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

[jeremyp]

A couple of years ago I bought some gold (not for $88,000 ) and all I got was an email that it was added to my bank storage). I still have it, but when I sell it, I do not have expect to get anything else than another email, and that the money has been put into my account.

I really do not see much difference from buying and selling bitcoins. But I believe that gold is less risky, although also less profitable.

The email is a note that says they owe you some gold (and there's a ledger somewhere that says you own the gold - there may even be some actual gold), or the monetary equivalent on the day you choose to sell.

That's the difference. You buy BTC: a number associated with your wallet (also just a number) goes up. You buy gold: you either get a lump of gold or you get a legally enforceable IOU for a lump of gold (unless you've been scammed).

 

[psionl0]

If we look at the fundamentals, what is Bitcon?

"Bitcon" is an emotional made-up word used with the intent of making somebody believe that all cryptos are bad without having to give any justification for that POV.

Bitcoin is a digital asset. The main difference between cryptos and physical assets like gold is that cryptos can only exist in cyber space. (So if you are a prepper, you probably won't be trying to accumulate any in a hurry). Otherwise, in financial terms, they are just as tradeable (able to be exchanged for other assets) as physical assets. Like physical assets, they can be lost or stolen if the holder is careless but the holder can take as many measures as they feel necessary to avoid loss/theft of these assets.

As for that "ledger" you talk about, it is a record of transfers of various amounts of this asset from wallet to wallet. It is not bitcoin itself.

Bitcoin doesn't "do" anything any more than gold does anything. People do things with these products (mostly speculate). Yes, some people run scams with this product and businesses that invest in this product can fail - especially if they promise great returns. But this isn't unique. It applies to every product that might be traded.

There is nothing magical about cryptos. There are no rules that apply uniquely to cryptos when it comes to trading.

 

[dirtywick]

exactly. why would anyone want to buy and sell it? people buy it and sell it and hope to sell it for more than they bought it. that's the entire thing.

 

[psionl0]

exactly. why would anyone want to buy and sell it? people buy it and sell it and hope to sell it for more than they bought it. that's the entire thing.

And speculators don't do that for gold?
Any other ancient arguments you want to regurgitate for the millionth time?

 

[dirtywick]

what ancient argument? i'm agreeing with what you said. idk what your problem is lately lol

 

[psionl0]

 

[dirtywick]

you're just a disagreeable guy imo

 

[jeremyp]

"Bitcon" is an emotional made-up word used with the intent of making somebody believe that all cryptos are bad without having to give any justification for that POV.

Apologies. It was a typo.

Bitcoin is a digital asset.

What does that really mean?

The main difference between cryptos and physical assets like gold is that cryptos can only exist in cyber space.

That's a complicated way of saying Bitcoin is just a number.

As for that "ledger" you talk about, it is a record of transfers of various amounts of this asset from wallet to wallet. It is not bitcoin itself.

No seriously, it is. If I say my wallet contains 3 BTC, what does it mean? It means the Bitcoin blockchain has a record of "transactions" which, in total show my wallet, over all history has gone from 0 to 3.

Bitcoin doesn't "do" anything any more than gold does anything. People do things with these products (mostly speculate).

BTC is not a product. It's just a number.

There is nothing magical about cryptos.

Yes there is. Somehow it instills magical thinking in people like you.

 

[psionl0]

That's a complicated way of saying Bitcoin is just a number.

Don't be such a Luddite. Bitcoin may not exist in the physical world but it is just as real as any physical object. It can't be created or destroyed - only "mined" or transferred. It has nothing to do with imagination. It takes real processing power (energy) to acquire.

The only reason you say it is "just a number" is because you don't understand the technology.

 

[jeremyp]

Don't be such a Luddite.

Nobody here is a luddite.

Bitcoin may not exist in the physical world but it is just as real as any physical object.

No it isn't. I think you need to look up the definition of "real".

It can't be created or destroyed - only "mined" or transferred.

Mining is creating new bitcoins.

Bitcoins can be destroyed in any of several ways depending on what you mean by "destroyed". Put it in a wallet and forget the passkey, that BTC is gone forever. Change the algorithms to allow transactions to not have a destination wallet (possible if more than half the miners agree it) and BTC can be destroyed at will. Write a virus that virulently infects computers and deletes all copies of blocks and eventually all the BTC will be destroyed.

It has nothing to do with imagination.

Nobody said it does have anything to do with imagination.

It takes real processing power (energy) to acquire.

So? How does it follow from that that BTCis anything other than a number.

The only reason you say it is "just a number" is because you don't understand the technology.

No, the reason why I say it is just a number is because I do understand the technology.

What do you think a Bitcoin wallet actually is? I'll tell you.

A Bitcoin wallet is a public and private key pair. The public key is used to generate an address for the wallet and to verify signed transactions. The private key is used to sign transactions. That's pretty much it. Everything else is in the block chain transactions.

A BTC transaction consists usually of a list of inputs which are the outputs of older transactions and a list of outputs which is a list of destination addresses and coins to be associated with them. The coins of the inputs have to exceed the coins of the outputs. The difference is the fee.

That's it on the mechanical level. The rest is all about making sure transactions cannot be faked. It's all just numbers in a digital ledger, nothing more than that.

 

[psionl0]

No it isn't. I think you need to look up the definition of "real".

Dictionary.com doesn't support your assertion that something is "real" only if it exists in the physical world. The medium in which something exists is irrelevant to the definition.

Text documents, pictures, videos etc are all examples of things that may only exist digitally (even if they can be printed). Are you going to argue that they are "just a number" and are not real?

Mining is creating new bitcoins.

Only in the most semantical sense possible. The fact remains that nobody can change the total number that are "unlocked" at any one time. Lost wallets don't equate to "destruction" of bitcoin any more than lost gold equates to the destruction of that gold. As for creating a new fork with a different potential total in existence, that is setting up a new crypto-currency. It is not changing the existing number of BTC (even if they try to give the new crypto the same name).

No, the reason why I say it is just a number is because I do understand the technology.

Being able to google the mechanics of how the algorithm works doesn't equate to understanding the technology.

 

[jeremyp]

Dictionary.com doesn't support your assertion that something is "real" only if it exists in the physical world. The medium in which something exists is irrelevant to the definition.

Text documents, pictures, videos etc are all examples of things that may only exist digitally (even if they can be printed). Are you going to argue that they are "just a number" and are not real?

Numbers are real but they are abstract objects. Bitcoin no more than a number. Nothing more, nothing less.

Only in the most semantical sense possible. The fact remains that nobody can change the total number that are "unlocked" at any one time.

Yes they can. When people mine: new bitcoins are literally created out of nothing.

Lost wallets don't equate to "destruction" of bitcoin any more than lost gold equates to the destruction of that gold.

Lost, forever or destroyed - it amounts to the same thing.

As for creating a new fork with a different potential total in existence, that is setting up a new crypto-currency. It is not changing the existing number of BTC (even if they try to give the new crypto the same name).

Doesn't even need a new fork. If there is a consensus amongst more than half of the mining power, the software can be changed. If I craft a transaction in which the outputs exceed the inputs, it will get rejected. But if I can persuade enough of the miners to change their software so it doesn't get rejected, then it will be accepted into a block and put in the block chain. You may say "hey, this transaction is invalid" but there will be nothing you can do about it because the miners will be adding more blocks into the chain after that block. All you need is enough mining power that agrees that my transaction is valid to squash any attempts and forking the chain before the block my transaction is in.

Being able to google the mechanics of how the algorithm works doesn't equate to understanding the technology.

Well then your first step should be to Google how the blockchain and transactions work and that will set you on the road to understanding the technology.

 

[dirtywick]

i suppose one could simply copy the code and create their own crypto if they wanted more bitcoin and get rid of that pesky scarcity problem. maybe trade those coins with bitcoin freely.

anyone ever tried that before? how does that go?

 

[steenkh]

i suppose one could simply copy the code and create their own crypto if they wanted more bitcoin and get rid of that pesky scarcity problem. maybe trade those coins with bitcoin freely.

anyone ever tried that before? how does that go?

They would need to add it to the Bitcoin blockchain. Impossible. It is much easier to create a new blockchain and try to get people to buy this new cryptocurrency.

 

[dirtywick]

They would need to add it to the Bitcoin blockchain. Impossible. It is much easier to create a new blockchain and try to get people to buy this new cryptocurrency.

can you freely trade with new crypto with bitcoin?