• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Anthrax Case Solved?

I am interested to hear from those who think Ivins was framed and/or murdered: what evidence do you see exonerating him? I will admit that the government has not yet proved their case to my satisfaction. But the CT crowd has provided no evidence that clears him.

This may, in fact, be a key component to the government case. Only a few people had access to the anthrax, and all the others have been cleared, leaving Ivins as the only person who could have done it.

I suppose if Ivins was framed then it was by the FBI, only to finally end the case. They started with looking at every possibility including foreign and domestic. The early evidence suggested the anthrax--at least the anthrax sent to the Senators--was weaponized and surpassed the US own expertise. Later a FBI scientist, Beecher was his name if I recall correctly, declared in a paper the anthrax was nothing special and had no additives. This gave the FBI a chance to pin the case on a US scientist. Eventually they ended up with Ivins who was unfortunately the only one left on the list. The FBI wanted him to plead guilty so there would not be a trial.
 
Because Ivins was not just any "lone scientist", he was an anthrax expert in charge of producing spores.

But not coating them. That was my point.

Yes, I know, Ivins produced "wet spores", not the dry spores that were used in the attack. How tough is it to turn wet spores into dry spores? I don't know.

Well let's ask the experts:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28334-2002Oct27?language=printer

"In my opinion, there are maybe four or five people in the whole country who might be able to make this stuff, and I'm one of them," said Richard O. Spertzel, chief biological inspector for the U.N. Special Commission from 1994 to 1998. "And even with a good lab and staff to help run it, it might take me a year to come up with a product as good."

Instead, suggested Spertzel and more than a dozen experts interviewed by The Washington Post in recent weeks, investigators might want to reexamine the possibility of state-sponsored terrorism, or try to determine whether weaponized spores may have been stolen by the attacker from an existing, but secret, biodefense program or perhaps given to the attacker by an accomplice.

... snip ...

Scientists suggested that the loner theory appeared flawed even in the opening days of the investigation. The profile was issued three weeks after U.S. Army scientists had examined the Daschle spores and found them to be 1.5 to 3 microns in size and processed to a grade of 1 trillion spores per gram -- 50 times finer than anything produced by the now-defunct U.S. bioweapons program and 10 times finer than the finest known grade of Soviet anthrax spores. ... snip ...

"Just collecting this stuff is a trick," said Steven A. Lancos, executive vice president of Niro Inc., one of the leading manufacturers of spray dryers, viewed by several sources as the likeliest tool needed to weaponize the anthrax bacteria. "Even on a small scale, you still need containment. If you're going to do it right, it could cost millions of dollars."

Do you have any evidence to support one of these alternatives over the others?

Do you have ANY evidence to show the FBI or it's subcontractors succeeded? We know they tried and failed (for at least 2 years). Seems to me it's your task to show they succeeded if you think they did. Otherwise, we're justified in having doubts. :D
 
Where do you think Atta and his gang got this anthrax?

Iraq?

Czech intelligence is still of the opinion that Atta had contact with an Iraqi agent who ran special projects involving terrorism shortly before 9/11.

And these experts seem to agree Iraq could have produced it:

http://newsdetails.blogspot.com/2007/05/technical-intelligence-in-retrospect.html

In particular note this from the above:

Relying, apparently, on concrete findings, former top U.S. weapons inspector Dr. David Kay said that "the Iraqis had developed new techniques for drying anthrax - techniques that were superior to anything the United States or the old Soviet Union had. That would make the former regime of Saddam Hussein the most sophisticated manufacturer of anthrax in the world." Somewhat disturbingly, Dr. Kay did not - probably intentionally - give more details about his statement, not mentioning any additive applied for the Iraqi techniques, such as silica or, possibly, siloxane binder, or any foreign contributors - Russian, Danish, or another. Yet, even independently of Kay's remarkable statement, the vitality of such an exceptional Iraqi capability may presumably lie within an effective Iraqi-made integration of the various predominant essentials presented and discussed. And beyond anthrax, a notable collateral outcome of that integration was that silica gel was indeed being used by Iraq to aid in the dispersability of wheat smut spores, an anti-cultivar fungal biological warfare agent then held by Iraq.
 
The Justice Department says Ivins was responsible. They are the professional investigators. Do you believe they are correct?

What the hell do I know?

As far as I know, the investigation is in progress.
 
Iraq?

Czech intelligence is still of the opinion that Atta had contact with an Iraqi agent who ran special projects involving terrorism shortly before 9/11.

And these experts seem to agree Iraq could have produced it:

http://newsdetails.blogspot.com/2007/05/technical-intelligence-in-retrospect.html

In particular note this from the above:

This may be news to you but we invaded Iraq and did not find any anthrax. Does this present a problem with your theory?

The Czechs were I believe pressured to confirm the Atta/Iraq link. A Czech official, Interior Minister Stanislav Gross, called a press conference, confirmed the supposed link, took no questions, and quickly left the room.

The head of Czech Intelligence does not believe there was any Atta/Iraq contact.

http://www.praguepost.com/P02/2002/20717/news1.php
 
What the hell do I know?

As far as I know, the investigation is in progress.

The investigation is over.

Did you miss the Justice Department's press conference? They declared Ivins responsible for the anthrax attacks. C-SPAN probably has it for replay.
 
This may be news to you but we invaded Iraq and did not find any anthrax. Does this present a problem with your theory?

That's not exactly true. No recently made weapons were found. But they found evidence that Iraq had disposed of anthrax. However, there were no records to say when or how much. The ISG found documents that show Iraq did have the knowledge to produce high quality anthrax. According to
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/bw-isg.htm , Iraq retained the equipment to do it such as fermentors. Iraq retained the scientists to do it. For example, the ISG found an important former anthrax production expert working from 2000 to 2003 at a location where fermentors were found. As that source states "Although no active BW program existed at Iraq's biological plants, the ISG judged that a break-out production capability existed at one site, the State Company for Drug Industries and Medical Appliances, SDI, at Samarra. Since Iraq could relocate production assets such as fermentors, other sites with basic utilities could also be converted for break-out." The ISG said the SDI had "the fixed assets that could be converted for BW agent production within four to five weeks after the decision to do so, including utilities, personnel with know-how, and the equipment (with slight modifications) required." The ISG also said "the movable assets at the Al Dawrah FMDV Plant could provide the core of an alternative break-out capability at any other suitable site in Iraq, perhaps within 2 to 3 weeks after the decision to do so. If such a break-out were to take place, ISG judged that Bacillus anthracis (anthrax) would be the germ of choice, since antrax was the only BW in Iraq's historical arsenal."

And by the way, what you note will only present a problem when you can tell us the contents of the armed truck convoys that were seen moving from Iraq to Syria before the war ... what the reason was for Iraq sanitizing files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD ... and why Iraq built a bunker under a river in 2002 which locals said contained WMD and which the CIA in 2006 (when it finally got around to examining them) found had been looted. But then you can't, can you. :D

http://www.praguepost.com/P02/2002/20717/news1.php

That's from 2002.

My response:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030729-093909-9839r.htm

July 30, 2003 ... snip ... Czech Interior Minister Stanislav Gross said last year he took issue with U.S. press reports that the meeting did not take place. "I believe the counterintelligence services more than journalists," Mr. Gross told a Prague newspaper. Mr. Gross told reporters last year that Atta visited Prague twice in 2000 and then met al-Ani, who was expelled from the country on April 22, 2001, for intelligence activities. U.S. officials said Czech intelligence is 70 percent certain the meeting took place at the Iraqi Embassy in Prague.

And here's a fairly recent article on the subject by a journalist who spoke with Czech Intelligence authorities. And it doesn't paint the story you'd like.

http://edjayepstein.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_edjayepstein_archive.html

November 22, 2005.

... snip ...

Was the putative Prague Connection an invention of the Bush Administration– or was it the product of an incomplete intelligence operation?

To sort out the confusion , I met earlier this November 11 in Prague with Jiri Ruzek, the chief at the time of Czech counterintelligence service(BIS), Ruzek, a professional intelligence officer, is in a position to know what happened, He personally oversaw the investigation of Iraq’s alleged covert activities that began, with full American collaboration, nearly two years before Bush became President and resulted, some five months before the 9-11 attack, in the expulsion the Iraqi intelligence officer to have met with Atta, Ahmad al-Ani. I also spoke with ex-Foreign Minister Jan Kavan, who headed the Intelligence Committee to whom Ruzek reported, and to Ambassador Hynek Kmonicek, who, as deputy foreign minister at the time, handled the al-Ani expulsion for the foreign ministry. According to them, here is how the the Prague connection developed.

... snip ...

On September 11th, Atta’s picture was shown on Czech TV, and the next day, the BIS’s source in the Iraq embassy dropped a bomb shell. He told his BIS case officer that he recognized Atta as the Arab who got in the car with Al-Ani on April 9th. Ruzek immediately relayed the secret information to Washington through the CIA liaison. The FBI sent to Prague an interrogation team, which after questioning and testing the source, concluded that there was a 70 percent liklihood that he was not intentionally lying and sincerely believed that he saw Atta with al-Ani.

... snip ...

Less than a week after Ruzek shared the BIS’ secret information with American intelligence, it was leaked. The Associated Press reported "A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the United States has received information from a foreign intelligence service that Mohamed Atta, a hijacker aboard one of the planes that slammed into the World Trade Center, met earlier this year in Europe with an Iraqi intelligence agent," and CBS named with al-Ani as the person meeting with Atta in Prague. Ruzek was furious. He consider what he had passed on to the FBI to be unevaluated raw intelligence, and the disclosure of it not only risked compromising the BIS’s penetration in the Iraq embassy but it greatly reduced the chances of confirming it. In Baghdad, al-Ani, through an Iraqi spokesman, denied he ever met Atta. In Prague, Czech government officials, who had not been fully briefed, added to the confusion. The Prime Minister,. Milos Zeeman , wrongly assuming that the meeting had been confirmed, stated on CNN, for example, that Atta and al-Ani had met to discuss Radio free Europe, not 9-11 attack.

Meanwhile, the pressures on Ruzek mounted. Richard Armitage, Powell’s deputy at the State Department, complained to Prime Minister Zeeman that Ruzek was not cooperating in resolving the case, eben though Ruzek had extended unprecedented access to the FBI and CIA, including allowing their representatives to sit on the task force reviewing the case. He was also warned by a colleague in German intelligence that could be entangled in a heated Hawk-Dove struggle over Iraq. He decided that if this was an American game, he did not want part of it. So he threw the ball back in the CIA’s court, by taking the position that if al-Ani did meet Atta for a nefarious purpose, it would have been not on his own initiaive but as a representative of the Iraqi Mukharabit. The answer was not it Prague, but in Iraq’s
intelligence files, and the the CIA and FBI would have to use their own intelligence capabilities to obtain further information about al-Ani’s assignment, and brief. That more or less cocluded the Czech role in the investigation.

... snip ...

Prior to 911, when the investigation al-Ani’s activities was initiated, both the CIA and the BIS took deadly serious the allegation of state-sponsored terrorism directed against Radio Free Europe, Both agencies cooperated in attempting to thwart it, and accepted the information furnished by the BIS’ penetration agent as reliable enough to expel al-Ani. After 9-11, with Iraq now on the Bush administration’s agenda, the subject of state-sponsored terrorism became a political hot potato, as Ruzek learned, that could easily burn who touched it. So hot that if the CIA even questioned al-Ani about the instruction he had concerning blowing up Radio Free Europe, it never disclosed the answers to the BIS. So, like many other intelligence cases that become politicized, the Prague Connection, and all that led up to it, was consigned to a murky limbo.
 
See this is the thing I don't get. If it was Iraqi given to Al Qaeda, why wouldn't the FBI and the DoJ being jumping on that like a big wooly dog. Why isn't Bush out there screaming "See I told you so! I was right to invade Iraq!"? Why would they being trying to pin it on a US scientist when they could pin it on Saddam instead?

Likewise, if it was a false flag of to blame Iraq and either allow or to cause the US to invade and to justify that invasion, why aren't they attempting to piut the blame on Iraq? Why blame a US scientist?
 
See this is the thing I don't get. If it was Iraqi given to Al Qaeda, why wouldn't the FBI and the DoJ being jumping on that like a big wooly dog. Why isn't Bush out there screaming "See I told you so! I was right to invade Iraq!"? Why would they being trying to pin it on a US scientist when they could pin it on Saddam instead?

Likewise, if it was a false flag of to blame Iraq and either allow or to cause the US to invade and to justify that invasion, why aren't they attempting to piut the blame on Iraq? Why blame a US scientist?

Simply because they were able to trace it to a US lab.
 
See this is the thing I don't get. If it was Iraqi given to Al Qaeda, why wouldn't the FBI and the DoJ being jumping on that like a big wooly dog. Why isn't Bush out there screaming "See I told you so! I was right to invade Iraq!"?

1) The facts supporting an Iraqi connection are admittedly circumstantial. And if Bush were to say "see I told you so" now, he'd be attacked for even claiming that.

2) If Bush admitted his administration knew that Iraq was behind the attacks soon after 9/11, folks might wonder why they waited until 2003 to do something about it.

3) And what makes anyone think Bush and the FBI have the same agenda?

I'll be the first to admit, I don't know the answer. But like-wise, so far noone has explained why the FBI gave so many different versions about the characteristics of the anthrax over time, how the first case contracted it, the curious concidence that the first case worked within a few miles of the hijackers and through a few degrees of separation came in contact with them, and how Ivins was able to single-handedly create a coating and mill the anthrax to a degree that even US and Soviet weapon builders had never achieved. :D
 
1) The facts supporting an Iraqi connection are admittedly circumstantial. And if Bush were to say "see I told you so" now, he'd be attacked for even claiming that.
Has the lack of concrete evidence ever stopped the Bush administration before?

2) If Bush admitted his administration knew that Iraq was behind the attacks soon after 9/11, folks might wonder why they waited until 2003 to do something about it.
LOL. Bush is covering up Iraqi involvement in the attacks to avoid questions about why he waited so long to invade? I think you've just won a stundie nomination.

3) And what makes anyone think Bush and the FBI have the same agenda?
What makes you think that the Bush administration is less willing to interfere with the actions of the FBI than with the justice department and the CIA?
 
1) The facts supporting an Iraqi connection are admittedly circumstantial. And if Bush were to say "see I told you so" now, he'd be attacked for even claiming that.

2) If Bush admitted his administration knew that Iraq was behind the attacks soon after 9/11, folks might wonder why they waited until 2003 to do something about it.

3) And what makes anyone think Bush and the FBI have the same agenda?

I'll be the first to admit, I don't know the answer. But like-wise, so far noone has explained why the FBI gave so many different versions about the characteristics of the anthrax over time, how the first case contracted it, the curious concidence that the first case worked within a few miles of the hijackers and through a few degrees of separation came in contact with them, and how Ivins was able to single-handedly create a coating and mill the anthrax to a degree that even US and Soviet weapon builders had never achieved. :D

Are you suggesting Sadam was able to do this?

To answer you first question, the FBI started out as honest investigators following the evidence and leads. Initially the anthrax (Senate anthrax) was described as advanced and weaponized. Then they changed their story once they realized who made the anthrax. So, they began to lie and say there were no additives and the anthrax was nothing special. They were left with only a US bioweapons scientist to blame. Ivins was the last suspect on the list so he was it.
 
I can already see the fault lines forming, especially over the supercoatings and the FBI not being able to recreate the anthrax etc. When you get a rumor hungry media and on top of this you have an administration surrounded by pundits pushing for war you are going to get all sorts of spurrious and anecdotal data that wont fit the final answer. We can all expect the loons to hastily latch onto these inconsistencies instead of choosing to live in a world of uncertainty and doubt.

boloboffin, thanks for presenting evidence in such a clear-headed and reasonable manner. It is enlightening to say the least, and exactly what this forum is about.
 
create a coating and mill the anthrax to a degree that even US and Soviet weapon builders had never achieved.

Are you suggesting Sadam was able to do this?

As I've already noted, former top U.S. weapons inspector Dr. David Kay said that "the Iraqis had developed new techniques for drying anthrax - techniques that were superior to anything the United States or the old Soviet Union had. That would make the former regime of Saddam Hussein the most sophisticated manufacturer of anthrax in the world."

As far as coatings were concerned,

http://cryptome.org/anthrax-powder.htm

More revealing than the electrostatic charge, some experts say, was a technique used to anchor silica nanoparticles to the surface of spores. About a year and a half ago, a laboratory analyzing the Senate anthrax spores for the FBI reported the discovery of what appeared to be a chemical additive that improved the bond between the silica and the spores. U.S. intelligence officers informed foreign biodefense officials that this additive was “polymerized glass.” The officials who received this briefing—biowarfare specialists who work for the governments of two NATO countries—said they had never heard of polymerized glass before. This was not surprising. “Coupling agents” such as polymerized glass are not part of the usual tool kit of scientists and engineers making powders designed for human inhalation. Also known as “sol gel” or “spin-on-glass,” polymerized glass is “a silane or siloxane compound that’s been dissolved in an alcohol- based solvent like ethanol,” says Jacobsen. It leaves a thin glassy coating that helps bind the silica to particle surfaces.

Silica has been a staple in professionally engineered germ warfare powders for decades. (The Soviet Union added to its powders resin and a silica dust called Aerosil —a formulation requiring high heat to create nanoparticles, says Alibek. U.S. labs have tested an Aerosil variant called Cab-O-Sil, and declassified U.S. intelligence reports state that Iraq’s chemical and biological warfare labs imported tons of both Cab-O-Sil and Aerosil, also known as “solid smoke,” in the 1980s). “If there’s polymerized glass [in the Senate samples], it really narrows the field [of possible suspects],” says Jacobsen, who has been following the anthrax investigations keenly. “Polymerized glasses are exotic materials, and nanotechnology is something you just don’t do in your basement.”

Yes, I'm suggesting Saddam could have made this anthrax.

To answer you first question, the FBI started out as honest investigators following the evidence and leads. Initially the anthrax (Senate anthrax) was described as advanced and weaponized. Then they changed their story once they realized who made the anthrax.

From the above link:

By the fall of 2002, the awe-inspiring anthrax of the previous spring had morphed into something decidedly less fearsome. According to sources on Capitol Hill, FBI scientists now reported that there was “no additive” in the Senate anthrax at all. Alibek said he examined electron micrographs of the anthrax spores sent to Senator Daschle and saw no silica. “But I couldn’t be absolutely sure,” Alibek says, “because I only saw three to five of these electron micrographs.” Even the astonishingly uniform particle size of 1.5 to 3 micrometers, mentioned in 2001 by Senator Bill Frist (R–TN), now included whopping 100-micrometer agglomerates, according to the new FBI description recounted by Capitol Hill aides. The reversal was so extreme that the former chief biological weapons inspector for the United Nations Special Commission, Richard Spertzel, found it hard to accept. “No silica, big particles, manual milling,” he says: “That’s what they’re saying now, and that radically contradicts everything we were told during the first year of this investigation.”

Military scientists did not back off their findings. The August/October 2002 newsletter from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) reported that a mass spectrometry analysis found silica in the powder sent to Senator Daschle (The AFIP Letter, August/October 2002, p. 6). “This was a key component,” said the institute’s deputy director, Florabel Mullick, in the AFIP newsletter. “Silica prevents the anthrax from aggregating, making it easier to aerosolize,” she added. Frank Johnson, chief of AFIP’s Chemical Pathology Division, corroborated this in an interview. “There was silica there,” said Johnson, “there was no mistaking it.” Maj. Gen. John S. Parker, commander of the U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command at the time of the attacks, says he saw AFIP’s lab reports. “There was a huge silicon spike” consistent with the presence of silica, he says. “It peaked near the top of the screen.”

Other agencies support this view today. For example, John Cicmanec, a scientist with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, says the Department of Homeland Security confirmed to EPA that the perpetrators did, in fact, use silica to weaponize the Senate anthrax spores. According to an abstract that Cicmanec will present at the annual meeting of the Society for Risk Analysis next month, this weaponized form of anthrax is more than 500 times more lethal than untreated spores.

The contradictory military data compelled the FBI to do some explaining. Sources on Capitol Hill say that in an FBI background briefing given in late 2002, Dwight Adams, one of the FBI’s topranking scientists, suggested that the silica discovered in the Senate anthrax was, in fact, silicon that occurred naturally in the organism’s subsurface spore coats. To support his thesis, Adams cited a 1980 paper published by the Journal of Bacteriology—a paper that Matthew Meselson, a molecular biologist at Harvard University, says he sent to the FBI. The authors reported that they found silicon, the element, in the spore coats of a bacterium called B. cereus, a close cousin of anthrax.

In the 23 years since the Journal of Bacteriology published these data, however, no other laboratory has published a report on significant amounts of silicon in the B. cereus spore coat, and many bacteriologists familiar with these data consider them an anomaly. Even the authors suggested the finding might have been due to “contamination.”

In December 2002, the FBI decided to test whether a high-grade anthrax powder resembling the one mailed to the Senate could be made on a small budget, and without silica. To do this job, the bureau called upon Army scientists at Dugway Proving Ground, a desolate Army test range in southwestern Utah. By February 2003, the scientists at Dugway had finished their work. According to military sources with firsthand knowledge of this effort, the resulting powder “flew like penguins.” The experiment had failed. (Penguins can’t fly.)

Military sources say that Dugway washed and centrifuged the material four times to create a pure spore preparation, then dried it by solvent extraction and azeotropic distillation —a process developed by the U.S. Chemical Corps at Fort Detrick in the late 1950s. It is not a simple method, but someone familiar with it might be able to jury-rig a lab to get the job done. As recently as 1996, Bill Patrick says he taught scientists at Dugway how to do this.

The FBI-Dugway effort produced a coarse powder. The spores—some dried under an infrared lamp and the others airdried —stuck together in little cakes, according to military sources, and then were sieved through “a fine steel mesh.” The resulting powder was placed into test tubes. When FBI officials arrived at Dugway to examine the results, a Dugway scientist shook one of the tubes. Unlike the electrostatically charged Senate anthrax spores that floated freely, the Dugway spores fell to the bottom of the test tube and stayed there. “That tells you the particles were too big,” says Spertzel. “It confirms what I’ve been saying all along: To make a good powder, you need an additive.”

... snip ...

Today, there is no firm evidence to link Iraq—or any other government—to the anthrax attacks. But some weapons experts such as Spertzel are still inclined to look for a sponsor with deep pockets, and they say Hussein’s regime cannot be ruled out. Spertzel’s main point, however, is that only a state-run facility or a corporation has the resources to make an anthrax powder as good as the one mailed to the Senate.

A state run facility like one in Iraq?

So, they began to lie and say there were no additives and the anthrax was nothing special.

That's right. It would appear the FBI is now lying about the characteristics of the anthrax. So the question is why?
 
So Saddam had access to far more subtle and powerful anthrax milling capabilities than Ivins at USAMRIID?

:rolleyes:
 
The FBI-Dugway effort produced a coarse powder. The spores—some dried under an infrared lamp and the others airdried —stuck together in little cakes, according to military sources, and then were sieved through “a fine steel mesh.” The resulting powder was placed into test tubes. When FBI officials arrived at Dugway to examine the results, a Dugway scientist shook one of the tubes. Unlike the electrostatically charged Senate anthrax spores that floated freely, the Dugway spores fell to the bottom of the test tube and stayed there. “That tells you the particles were too big,” says Spertzel. “It confirms what I’ve been saying all along: To make a good powder, you need an additive.”

Air drying? Infrared lamps? what ever happened to lyophilization?

That's right. It would appear the FBI is now lying about the characteristics of the anthrax. So the question is why?

Actually, the first question is is. Once is is established, we can investigate why. I find it interesting that those who doubt the FBI case will accept the challenges to the FBI story so easily.
 

Back
Top Bottom