We don't. Besides, has there been formal accusations?
This doesn't make sense.
Merged Anthrax Case Solved?
- Thread starter jhunter1163
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We don't. Besides, has there been formal accusations?
This doesn't make sense.
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I think the media knew their information was untrustworthy, as did anyone who read it over the last few days.
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
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So the media is, according to you, questioning this but not the events of 9/11..........interesting.
As I said, never mentioned 9/11. I am talking about Bruce Ivins, whom I believe may have been hounded to his death. My thoughts are with his family.
Are you being paid to constantly mention 9/11. What are the going rates for your employment. Can you recommend your employer?
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Staying late or working in the lab on weekend is rather common for scientists. If Ivans only worked normal hours except during this period, I would find that suspicious. Otherwise, it only proves he had access to the virus.
Has anyone come up with a motive for Ivans to choose the specific people targeted in the 2001 anthrax attacks?
boloboffin
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Ivins spent extraordinary, unprecedented, and unsupervised time in the B3 lab before each of the mailings. He admitted to having no real reason for being there.
Ivins on several occasions provided fake sampling of the relevant anthrax strain to FBI officials.
Ivins lied about how he discovered that his anthrax matched the samples of anthrax from the mailings.
Ivins began taking Celexa almost immediately after seeking a psychiatrist's help in February 2000. He reported several side effects, including paranoia. He also reported in emails that his psychiatrist (not the therapist in the news) was considering a diagnosis of Paranoid Personality Disorder in July 2000.
The emails are very bad for him:
The fictitious return address on envelopes used for the second round of mailing even have a haunting connection to Ivins. They were labeled "4th GRADE" and "GREENDALE SCHOOL. This appears to be connected to an article in the American Family Association magazine for donors. It describes a lawsuit filed by the AFA Law Center, in which Wisconsin state case workers went to a Greendale Baptist Academy to interview a fourth grade student about corporal punishment at the school. The interview was not conducted with the knowledge of the parents. Mr. and Mrs. Ivins had been donors to the AFA but had stopped for two years. One month after this article appeared in the magazine still being delivered to their house, their donations began again.
Mr. Ivins was a practicing Catholic, involved in pro-life activism. Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy were being targeted right before the 9/11 attacks as Catholics who should be excommunicated for aiding and abetting abortion. In the September 26 email, Ivins wrote:
The similar themes of Ivins' emails and the anthrax letters are apparent. There's more, but this is the most persuasive to me.
Ivins on several occasions provided fake sampling of the relevant anthrax strain to FBI officials.
Ivins lied about how he discovered that his anthrax matched the samples of anthrax from the mailings.
Ivins began taking Celexa almost immediately after seeking a psychiatrist's help in February 2000. He reported several side effects, including paranoia. He also reported in emails that his psychiatrist (not the therapist in the news) was considering a diagnosis of Paranoid Personality Disorder in July 2000.
The emails are very bad for him:
The fictitious return address on envelopes used for the second round of mailing even have a haunting connection to Ivins. They were labeled "4th GRADE" and "GREENDALE SCHOOL. This appears to be connected to an article in the American Family Association magazine for donors. It describes a lawsuit filed by the AFA Law Center, in which Wisconsin state case workers went to a Greendale Baptist Academy to interview a fourth grade student about corporal punishment at the school. The interview was not conducted with the knowledge of the parents. Mr. and Mrs. Ivins had been donors to the AFA but had stopped for two years. One month after this article appeared in the magazine still being delivered to their house, their donations began again.
Mr. Ivins was a practicing Catholic, involved in pro-life activism. Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy were being targeted right before the 9/11 attacks as Catholics who should be excommunicated for aiding and abetting abortion. In the September 26 email, Ivins wrote:
The similar themes of Ivins' emails and the anthrax letters are apparent. There's more, but this is the most persuasive to me.
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Though I noted oddities - as reported on either CNN or MSNBC - (and I know I'm not who you asked this) I have made no assumption yet. Their/It's concerns were A) he was able to check himself out of the clinic and B) there were some timings in what she did that they found suspicious (the news people, not the FBI). The media (whichever of the two I was viewing)gave the appearance of believing the situation with her was not transparent.
As someone who has worked in research, it is very normal to work late hours. And what is worse, you don't get paid for it, you do it because you are looking for something new or a breakthrough! God help the world, if people can't understand that.
boloboffin
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Anyway, Greenwald on the admittedly selective release of documents:
He quotes Representative Rush Holt:
What we have here is really great probable cause for search warrants. What turned up?
um...it looks like the anthrax case is over folks. that psycho in maryland did it. now get on with your lives and move on.
the reason why things are soo quiet here..is because no one is interested in the rediculous conspiracy theories.
=)
the reason why things are soo quiet here..is because no one is interested in the rediculous conspiracy theories.
=)
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I wouldn't go that far. I don't subscribe to the speculative conspiracy theories, but I'm not willing to put it entirely to rest until a few more details are tied up.
ETA: the emails about the ACLU call into question any thought of collaboration with al quaeda. Unless, of course, he suspected his emails were being read and planted this as a red herring.
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There are conspiracies and conspiracies. 9/11 as envisioned by troofers (as well as Kennedy assasination - by their brothers in harms) are fake conspiracies - or conspiracies only in the sense of coveriong for investigations segments that got messed up or covering for errors that might have stopped some of the 9/11 if the gov't had been bright enough to act in time on them. The anthrax looks like the second kind also.
Lincoln's assasination was a real conspiracy although two of the people supposedly involved (Mudd and the innkeeper) likely were innocent victims of the hunt for the collaborators.
I am interested to hear from those who think Ivins was framed and/or murdered: what evidence do you see exonerating him? I will admit that the government has not yet proved their case to my satisfaction. But the CT crowd has provided no evidence that clears him.
This may, in fact, be a key component to the government case. Only a few people had access to the anthrax, and all the others have been cleared, leaving Ivins as the only person who could have done it.
This may, in fact, be a key component to the government case. Only a few people had access to the anthrax, and all the others have been cleared, leaving Ivins as the only person who could have done it.
Metullus
Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem
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I just read the affidavit attached to the application for the search warrants. Pretty damning stuff if true. Most troublesome of all, to me anyway, is the allegation that Ivins failed to cooperate in providing samples of the anthrax for which he was custodian. For those who have not read the affidavit, it appears that he twice supplied the FBI samples that were from a source other than his (these samples did not have the genetic markers that the investigators sought); the FBI found it necessary to accompany Ivins to his lab and seize the samples themselves.
I find it difficult to imagine an innocent motive for this.
I find it difficult to imagine an innocent motive for this.
From npr.org
"But on Wednesday, Kemp countered that hundreds of people had access to the flask and that the science behind the investigation is not as solid as it is being made out to be. He also added that Ivins cooperated with the investigation every step of the way.
False Samples Cited
That is a far cry from the picture Justice Department officials painted Wednesday. They say Ivins not only dodged their inquiries, but also tried to outright "mislead" investigators. They say Ivins submitted false anthrax samples from his lab to throw off investigators.
In one instance, the documents say, investigators asked Ivins for a specific sample of anthrax they needed. Ivins gave a sample, but when they went to the lab themselves and took the sample, it did not match what Ivins had given them. When they confronted Ivins, the documents say, he denied it was true.
Kemp says when investigators asked Ivins for an anthrax sample, he thought they were asking for a pure culture sample. It wasn't until six weeks later that they called and said they had wanted something else.
Kemp says Ivins never denied to the FBI that the anthrax could have come from his batch
Personally, i find it odd this guy was "in the loop" professionally all these years, and was obviously seemingly not under any suspicion, and in fact helped with the investigation, and passed Lie Detector tests. The number of people who had access to this stuff was known way back then, years ago, so this isnt new information. Knowing this so long ago, he wasnt subjected to his house being searched or otherwise cast in a bad light until the other guy was exonerated. Actually the FBI was knowingly feeding on carrion for a very long time. Now that all can smell the stench, it has forced them to find another carcass from which to feed(pardon the pun)
Its almost like the FBI is throwing small bits of bait into a rearing pond of fish that hasnt been fed in a long time. No matter what is thrown in, its going to get eaten. Bait that would interest no fish in any other environment.
"But on Wednesday, Kemp countered that hundreds of people had access to the flask and that the science behind the investigation is not as solid as it is being made out to be. He also added that Ivins cooperated with the investigation every step of the way.
False Samples Cited
That is a far cry from the picture Justice Department officials painted Wednesday. They say Ivins not only dodged their inquiries, but also tried to outright "mislead" investigators. They say Ivins submitted false anthrax samples from his lab to throw off investigators.
In one instance, the documents say, investigators asked Ivins for a specific sample of anthrax they needed. Ivins gave a sample, but when they went to the lab themselves and took the sample, it did not match what Ivins had given them. When they confronted Ivins, the documents say, he denied it was true.
Kemp says when investigators asked Ivins for an anthrax sample, he thought they were asking for a pure culture sample. It wasn't until six weeks later that they called and said they had wanted something else.
Kemp says Ivins never denied to the FBI that the anthrax could have come from his batch
Personally, i find it odd this guy was "in the loop" professionally all these years, and was obviously seemingly not under any suspicion, and in fact helped with the investigation, and passed Lie Detector tests. The number of people who had access to this stuff was known way back then, years ago, so this isnt new information. Knowing this so long ago, he wasnt subjected to his house being searched or otherwise cast in a bad light until the other guy was exonerated. Actually the FBI was knowingly feeding on carrion for a very long time. Now that all can smell the stench, it has forced them to find another carcass from which to feed(pardon the pun)
Its almost like the FBI is throwing small bits of bait into a rearing pond of fish that hasnt been fed in a long time. No matter what is thrown in, its going to get eaten. Bait that would interest no fish in any other environment.
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in case anyone is wondering, here is the link to that story that roundhead posted:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93374304
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93374304