Afghani Eject Computer Experts

[Mycroft]

I'm not moving the goalposts. You are.

If you don't want to argue that there are legal counterpoints (which you do in post #61), then don't.

When not used as a musical term, counterpoint normally means contrast not similarity. Elind chose the wrong word in that instance, but I replied to what I understood he intended to say, not what he literally said.

Do you really think this is the case? That you honor people who control you, and that this is determined by law?

What I mean is what I said; that the legal tradition of placing parents in control of their children’s lives has a foundation in the Ten Commandments. Specifically the commandment to honor thy mother and father.

Does that mean you will find any specific law that demands children literally honor their parents? Well, no, but then that would be required merely to demonstrate a foundation.

But here is another example: Mother’s Day declared by President Woodrow Wilson in 1914.

Do you think you could make an effort of following your own line of reasoning? You argued that there were legal counterpoints in your laws based on the Christian faith. It's your call to provide the evidence.

See previous arguments about the word “counterpoint.”

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?

Can you identify an alternative god it might refer to or not?

 

[CFLarsen]

When not used as a musical term, counterpoint normally means contrast not similarity. Elind chose the wrong word in that instance, but I replied to what I understood he intended to say, not what he literally said.

Can you make up your mind about what you are trying to argue?

What I mean is what I said; that the legal tradition of placing parents in control of their children’s lives has a foundation in the Ten Commandments. Specifically the commandment to honor thy mother and father.

Why is that particularly Christian?

Does that mean you will find any specific law that demands children literally honor their parents? Well, no, but then that would be required merely to demonstrate a foundation.

But here is another example: Mother’s Day declared by President Woodrow Wilson in 1914.

"No". OK. You can't back up your claim.

Since when is Mother's Day a specifically Christian holiday?

See previous arguments about the word “counterpoint.”

See previous point about you being able to making up your mind about what you are trying to argue.

Can you identify an alternative god it might refer to or not?

Answer the question, Mycroft: Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Ah ha ...mother's day is a secular holiday as are all the laws mentioned which are also mentioned in the ten c's. Isn't that what you are demanding? Secular laws based on the ten c's?

Now it has suddenly to be a christian holiday?

Talk about moving goalposts -- my my.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Repeatedly have furnished this reference to you. Did you think I would lose it or something or is your memory getting that piss poor? alZawahiri calling for jihad from Spain to Iraq. Get a map of Europe and figure out the countries covered and have a nice day while you can.

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- Al Qaeda's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."

In a taped message broadcast by Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahiri said the terrorist organization would not stand idly by while "these (Israeli) shells burn our brothers.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/27/zawahiri.ap/

 

[SteveGrenard]

In case you don't read the link here is the exact words of alZawahiri (translated):

al Zawahiri: "The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires ... . It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq. We will attack everywhere."

CNN: Spain was controlled by Arab Muslims until they were driven from the country at the turn of the 16th century.

I think they are pretty clear and self evident.

 

[Mycroft]

Can you make up your mind about what you are trying to argue?

You're the one who seems to have trouble with that. I'm very clear about what I'm arguing.

Why is that particularly Christian?

Who claimed "particularly Christian"? My claim is it has a foundation in the Ten Commandments. You keep trying to move the goalposts, stop that.

"No". OK. You can't back up your claim.

We have national holidays honoring both Mother and Father, do you claim this is not true?

Since when is Mother's Day a specifically Christian holiday?

I never claimed it was specifically Christian, nor do I need to.

See previous point about you being able to making up your mind about what you are trying to argue.

I'm the one who recognized you were using the word counterpoint incorrectly, and you claim I'm the one confused about what I'm arguing?

Let me set you straight on that: You were using the word improperly. You were the one who was confused.

Answer the question, Mycroft: Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?

I answered your question with a question: CFLarsos, Can you identify an alternative god it might refer to or not?
Look, I'm sure you win many arguments in your head where your opponent’s responses are limited to the very small selection you know how to deal with, but the real world isn't like that. In the real world people can think of responses and scenarios that may not fit the simplistic dichotomies that serve as your worldview.

 

[CFLarsen]

Who claimed "particularly Christian"? My claim is it has a foundation in the Ten Commandments. You keep trying to move the goalposts, stop that.

The 10 Commandments are a foundation of Christianity.

We have national holidays honoring both Mother and Father, do you claim this is not true?

Of course it's true. But how do they have a foundation in the 10 Commandments?

I never claimed it was specifically Christian, nor do I need to.

You are the one who keeps referring to the 10 Commandments, Mycroft.

I'm the one who recognized you were using the word counterpoint incorrectly, and you claim I'm the one confused about what I'm arguing?

Let me set you straight on that: You were using the word improperly. You were the one who was confused.

I answered your question with a question: CFLarsos, Can you identify an alternative god it might refer to or not?

That's not an anwer, that's just avoiding answering the question.

Look, I'm sure you win many arguments in your head where your opponent’s responses are limited to the very small selection you know how to deal with, but the real world isn't like that. In the real world people can think of responses and scenarios that may not fit the simplistic dichotomies that serve as your worldview.

So, you can't show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments that is mentioned on your money. Even though that was your claim.

 

[Mycroft]

The 10 Commandments are a foundation of Christianity.

Not just Christianity, but your Christian-centrism betrays your upbringing in a Christian society with its foundation of Christian principles.

Of course it's true. But how do they have a foundation in the 10 Commandments?

In being created by societies that were shaped by Judeo-Christian values and traditions that, among many other things, taught in the Ten Commandments to honor thy Mother and Father.

You are the one who keeps referring to the 10 Commandments, Mycroft.

Of course, that’s the topic.

Cute graphic. It doesn’t change that you misused the word counterpoint and then claimed I was the one who was confused after pointing it out to you.

Or do you deny that?

That's not an anwer, that's just avoiding answering the question.


So, you can't show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments that is mentioned on your money. Even though that was your claim.

There is no other god it could have been.

 

[CFLarsen]

Not just Christianity, but your Christian-centrism betrays your upbringing in a Christian society with its foundation of Christian principles.

I wasn't brought up Christian.

In being created by societies that were shaped by Judeo-Christian values and traditions that, among many other things, taught in the Ten Commandments to honor thy Mother and Father.

But parents should be honored in other societies as well, some predating Judeo-Christian ones. E.g., the Ancient Greeks and Romans. The Vikings were big on that, too.

Cute graphic. It doesn’t change that you misused the word counterpoint and then claimed I was the one who was confused after pointing it out to you.

Or do you deny that?

If you want to claim that, go ahead.

There is no other god it could have been.

Finally an answer. Why not? There were many religions represented in colonial times. Why must it have been this god?

Whether you like it or not, you need to find a reference where it says that the god mentioned on your money is the god behind the 10 Commandments.

You pointed to the law, Mycroft. Let's see your evidence.

 

[Mycroft]

I wasn't brought up Christian.

But you were brought up in a society with strong roots in Christianity. It doesn't really matter if you personally were a Christian, the Bible it's stories and it's teachings are still a part of you culteral heritage.

But parents should be honored in other societies as well, some predating Judeo-Christian ones. E.g., the Ancient Greeks and Romans. The Vikings were big on that, too.

Of course. I believe most of what is found in the Bible will also be found in other cultures.

If you want to claim that, go ahead.

I do claim it. It is self-evident.

Finally an answer. Why not? There were many religions represented in colonial times. Why must it have been this god?

Name them, please.

Whether you like it or not, you need to find a reference where it says that the god mentioned on your money is the god behind the 10 Commandments.

I disagree, but maybe I will change my mind after you have presented your list of all the different non-Judeo-Christian Gods that were worshiped by the European colonists during colonial times.

 

[CFLarsen]

But you were brought up in a society with strong roots in Christianity. It doesn't really matter if you personally were a Christian, the Bible it's stories and it's teachings are still a part of you culteral heritage.

There's a lot that is my cultural heritage. I feel more closer to the vikings than to the Christians. OTOH, I feel more closer to the US than to the rest of Europe.

You can't make sweeping statements like that. It reeks of bigotry and ignorance.

Of course. I believe most of what is found in the Bible will also be found in other cultures.

But then, you can't say it is Judeo-Christian values that tells us we should honor our parents.

Name them, please.

I disagree, but maybe I will change my mind after you have presented your list of all the different non-Judeo-Christian Gods that were worshiped by the European colonists during colonial times.

No, no, no. The onus is on you, Mycroft. You pointed to the law. You prove that it was the Judeo-Christian god.

 

[whitefork]

10 Commandments foundation of Christianity?

Jesus says something different.

Matthew 22
22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Tony]

Hmmmmm.

Mmmmmmaybe "democracy" isn't really what makes Western nations great. Maybe it's...

...shhhh...don't say it.

...freedom?

And that democracy is a subset of freedom, one of the freedoms, and not a superset that "grants freedoms".


See, politicians gain power by leading the people on cruscades to bonk the heads of this or that smaller group (typically evil Jewish, er, generic businessmen in the West.) And gaining power means restricting freedom. Hence politicians love to talk about democracy 9 of 10 times over freedom.

The US is making a gigantic mistake in the long run in stomping in there, but not imposing full freedom of religion (among others) out of some western "liberal guilt" hyper-sensitivity to "other cultures".

And we're gonna pay for it sooner or later as local politicians take advantage of the same, tired, old religious tirades that god wants this, god wants that, vote for me and I'll bonk the heads of those irreligious people. You're life'll be better...I promise!

We already know Beerina, you don't know what you're talking about. We know this, there is no reason for you to keep beating us over the head abut it.

 

[Tony]

Sabbath Observance-Secular Laws

In response to request for examples of laws that may have been inspired by the Ten Commandments in addition to the obvious ones prohibiting murder, theft and perjury:

Until 2003 all liquor stores in NYS had to remain legally closed on Sundays: This from the NY Times…

.

Since I could remember it was legal for bars and restaurants to sell alcoholic beverages (beer, wine and hard liquors) until 4 AM six days a week in NYC but it was illegal for them to do so past 2 AM on Sundays. Other U.S. towns and cities have similar laws prohibiting the sale and consumption of alcoholic drinks on the Sunday Sabbath.

Since I could remember in New York City it was illegal for shops and stores to sell alcoholic beverages on The Sunday Sabbath before Noon or 1 PM. Other U.S. cities and towns have a similar hodgepodge of commandment inspired laws.Liquor stores were barred from opening altogether until May, 2003.

I also recall it was illegal to perform outside construction work on the Sunday Sabbath in New York City. Other U.S. cities and towns may have similar laws. I recall seeing neighbors call the police on other neighbors who ignored the no working on the Sabbath rule by doing outside work on their homes or property.


They were given a ticket and told to shut down their work.

These laws are known as Blue Laws and some have been overturned in some jurisdictions but in others they persist. They were originally and, where they still occur, written to comply with the relevant commandments re observing the Sabbath.

You may find the following articles of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/bluelaws.html


Public Displays of Commandments

Many courthouses and public buildings in the U.S. including the Supreme Court display the ten commandments because the legal authorities in those jurisdictions believe they have relevance to the secular laws they promulgate, pass into law and enforce. These displays are the objected to by atheists and religious faiths which do not endorse or follow the commandments.

U.S. Legal Tender

If you have a Jefferson nickel or a Lincoln penny read the words on it. Also check your Washington dollars or Hamilton ten dollar bills. You will find the words “In God We Trust” which are placed there by secular law specifying the wording on legal Tender. Such a sentiment is embeded in the ten commandments and it is not unreasonable that the lawmakers specified this wording because they were provoked or inspired to do so in order to comply with the relevant commandment or commandments.

Adultery & Coveting Thy Nieghbors Wife, etc.

Those are your examples??



Consider me unimpressed. You should have cited laws supporting slavery the subjegation of women or laws against the teaching of evolution, atleast those have a provable basis in religion.

 

[CFLarsen]

Jesus says something different.

Matthew 22
22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

There is a hell of a difference between what Jesus said and what people have argued/believed Christianity was.

 

[Tony]

#3. Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.

There are certainly laws against cursing in public as well as laws on what words may be broadcast. Many curse words have nothing to do with blasphemy, but remember for the purpose of our discussion the law only needs to be based on the Ten Commandments, not an exact copy.

This doesn't follow. The "laws" you listed have nothing to do with taking the "lord's" name in vain or the 10 commandments.

#4 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

We get Sundays off in virtually every line of work that doesn’t require seven days a week coverage. Very often those that do require people to work Sundays pay them extra money for it.

This doesn't follow either.

#5 Honor your father and mother.

At least until you’re 18, this is mandatory.

No it's not. There are many circumstances under which a minor may break with their parents. Parent's cant force a minor into a contract, they can't force a minor to get a tatoo or any perminate body modification, a parent can't rape or abuse a child, a parent can't force a child to do drugs. That you even tried to claim this shows that what ground you do have, is extremely weak.

#7 Shalt not commit adultery.

There are certainly laws that regulate sexual behavior and specifically divorce laws that impose severe penalties for adultery.

Evidence? Evidence that these laws are constitutional?

# 10 No coveting. While there may not be laws against wanting, there are certainly many laws about the right and wrong ways of acquiring your neighbors stuff. All kinds of scams and frauds have been made illegal in order to assist your neighbor in keeping his stuff.

Already convered in "thou shalt not steal".

So by my count eight out of ten.

Your count is non-sense and you know it.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?

Larsen's authoritative on-line Wikipedia. Entry for Ten COmmandments.

 

[CFLarsen]

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?

Larsen's authoritative on-line Wikipedia. Entry for Ten COmmandments.

What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Where does al Zawahiri define this "proposed jihad zone"?

Where is your evidence that three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury?

 

[Mycroft]

There's a lot that is my cultural heritage. I feel more closer to the vikings than to the Christians. OTOH, I feel more closer to the US than to the rest of Europe.

It doesn’t matter, you were still raised in a culture that has it’s roots deep into Christianity.

You can't make sweeping statements like that. It reeks of bigotry and ignorance.

Is that a joke? Sociologists discuss these things all the time, are they bigoted and ignorant?

But then, you can't say it is Judeo-Christian values that tells us we should honor our parents.

Sure I can because Judeo-Christian values do tell us to honor our parents. That other cultures also share the same value doesn’t change this.

No, no, no. The onus is on you, Mycroft. You pointed to the law. You prove that it was the Judeo-Christian god.

Which isn’t even required to support my point. You, on the other hand, have made an affirmative statement that there were many non-Judeo-Christian gods worshipped in colonial times.

So let’s have a list. C’mon, don’t keep us waiting.

 

[CFLarsen]

It doesn’t matter, you were still raised in a culture that has it’s roots deep into Christianity.

Excuse me? Just who the hell are you to tell me what matters when it comes to my upbringing? What kind of bigotted, narrow-minded statement is that?

Is that a joke? Sociologists discuss these things all the time, are they bigoted and ignorant?

They base their conclusions on populations, not individuals.

Sure I can because Judeo-Christian values do tell us to honor our parents. That other cultures also share the same value doesn’t change this.

Could the Judeo-Christian values about honoring your parents be influenced by earlier societies? If so, do you think it was?

Which isn’t even required to support my point. You, on the other hand, have made an affirmative statement that there were many non-Judeo-Christian gods worshipped in colonial times.

So let’s have a list. C’mon, don’t keep us waiting.

What a load of crock, Mycroft. You point to the law. You back up your claim.

If you can't - or won't - just say so. But don't play these games of table-turning.