Afghani Eject Computer Experts

[Mycroft]

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

#3. Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.

There are certainly laws against cursing in public as well as laws on what words may be broadcast. Many curse words have nothing to do with blasphemy, but remember for the purpose of our discussion the law only needs to be based on the Ten Commandments, not an exact copy.

#4 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

We get Sundays off in virtually every line of work that doesn’t require seven days a week coverage. Very often those that do require people to work Sundays pay them extra money for it.

#5 Honor your father and mother.

At least until you’re 18, this is mandatory.

#6 Shalt not kill, self-explanatory.

#7 Shalt not commit adultery.

There are certainly laws that regulate sexual behavior and specifically divorce laws that impose severe penalties for adultery.

#8 Thou shalt not steal, self-explanatory

#9 Thou shalt not bear false witness: perjury is a crime.

# 10 No coveting. While there may not be laws against wanting, there are certainly many laws about the right and wrong ways of acquiring your neighbors stuff. All kinds of scams and frauds have been made illegal in order to assist your neighbor in keeping his stuff.

So by my count eight out of ten. Maybe even nine of ten if you consider “I am the Lord thy God.” reflected congressional prayers, the words “In God We Trust” printed on our money, and the use of Bibles to swear in witnesses during court proceedings.

 

[Mycroft]

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Clearly, you meant all 10. When you found out (probably by checking what the 10 Commandments actually were), you blame others for misunderstanding you. Nice.

But that's not at all clear from what he says.

"...these rules have formed the basis for much secular law."

Nowhere does he say all these rules.

 

[CFLarsen]

#3. Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.

There are certainly laws against cursing in public as well as laws on what words may be broadcast. Many curse words have nothing to do with blasphemy, but remember for the purpose of our discussion the law only needs to be based on the Ten Commandments, not an exact copy.

Rubbish. Can you show me the law that forbids me to take the Lord's name in vain?

#4 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

We get Sundays off in virtually every line of work that doesn’t require seven days a week coverage. Very often those that do require people to work Sundays pay them extra money for it.

Rubbish. The Sabbath day was simply meant to be one day of the week where you should rest. Originally, it was Saturday. And the commandment is about keeping it holy. Can you show me the law that says I have to keep the day of the Sabbath holy?

#5 Honor your father and mother.

At least until you’re 18, this is mandatory.

Rubbish. Can you show me the law that says I have to honor my father and mother?

#6 Shalt not kill, self-explanatory.

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where murder was allowed?

#7 Shalt not commit adultery.

There are certainly laws that regulate sexual behavior and specifically divorce laws that impose severe penalties for adultery.

Rubbish. Divorce is not given solely because of adultery, and you are not required to divorce your spouse, even though (s)he commits adultery. Unless you can show me the law that says you have to?

#8 Thou shalt not steal, self-explanatory

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where theft was allowed?

#9 Thou shalt not bear false witness: perjury is a crime.

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where perjury was allowed?

# 10 No coveting. While there may not be laws against wanting, there are certainly many laws about the right and wrong ways of acquiring your neighbors stuff. All kinds of scams and frauds have been made illegal in order to assist your neighbor in keeping his stuff.

Rubbish. The commandment is specifically about coveting. Can you show me one law that forbids me to want your new car?

So by my count eight out of ten. Maybe even nine of ten if you consider “I am the Lord thy God.” reflected congressional prayers, the words “In God We Trust” printed on our money, and the use of Bibles to swear in witnesses during court proceedings.

Rubbish. That has nothing to do with legislation being based on the 10 Commandments.

But that's not at all clear from what he says.

"...these rules have formed the basis for much secular law."

Nowhere does he say all these rules.

Rubbish.

 

[Beerina]

Putting two and two together, we have:

KABUL: August 7, 2006. Afghanistan has ordered hundreds of South Korean Christians on Sunday August 6, to leave the country yesterday, accusing them of seeking to undermine Islamic culture and trying to spread Christianity

and:

Just remember. Afghanistan is now a free, democratic country. Anything claimed to the contrary is obviously a plot by the librul media to undermine the glorious leadership of President George W. Bush.

Hmmmmm.

Mmmmmmaybe "democracy" isn't really what makes Western nations great. Maybe it's...

...shhhh...don't say it.

...freedom?

And that democracy is a subset of freedom, one of the freedoms, and not a superset that "grants freedoms".


See, politicians gain power by leading the people on cruscades to bonk the heads of this or that smaller group (typically evil Jewish, er, generic businessmen in the West.) And gaining power means restricting freedom. Hence politicians love to talk about democracy 9 of 10 times over freedom.

The US is making a gigantic mistake in the long run in stomping in there, but not imposing full freedom of religion (among others) out of some western "liberal guilt" hyper-sensitivity to "other cultures".

And we're gonna pay for it sooner or later as local politicians take advantage of the same, tired, old religious tirades that god wants this, god wants that, vote for me and I'll bonk the heads of those irreligious people. You're life'll be better...I promise!

 

[Mephisto]

Putting two and two together, we have:



and:



Hmmmmm.

Mmmmmmaybe "democracy" isn't really what makes Western nations great. Maybe it's...

...shhhh...don't say it.

...freedom?

I think you're right, Beerina. Didn't Bush say something about, "They hate us for our freedom?" That must be why he's whittling away at our freedoms with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, NSA wiretapping . . . etc.

He IS making our world a safer place!

 

[SteveGrenard]

Sabbath Observance-Secular Laws

In response to request for examples of laws that may have been inspired by the Ten Commandments in addition to the obvious ones prohibiting murder, theft and perjury:

Until 2003 all liquor stores in NYS had to remain legally closed on Sundays: This from the NY Times…

WHEN the State Legislature passed a law in May (2003) saying that liquor stores can now stay open on Sundays, many store owners in Westchester County considered it, but only a few jumped at the chance. While some liquor store owners cited religious or family reasons for remaining closed, many..

.

Since I could remember it was legal for bars and restaurants to sell alcoholic beverages (beer, wine and hard liquors) until 4 AM six days a week in NYC but it was illegal for them to do so past 2 AM on Sundays. Other U.S. towns and cities have similar laws prohibiting the sale and consumption of alcoholic drinks on the Sunday Sabbath.

Since I could remember in New York City it was illegal for shops and stores to sell alcoholic beverages on The Sunday Sabbath before Noon or 1 PM. Other U.S. cities and towns have a similar hodgepodge of commandment inspired laws.Liquor stores were barred from opening altogether until May, 2003.

I also recall it was illegal to perform outside construction work on the Sunday Sabbath in New York City. Other U.S. cities and towns may have similar laws. I recall seeing neighbors call the police on other neighbors who ignored the no working on the Sabbath rule by doing outside work on their homes or property.


They were given a ticket and told to shut down their work.

These laws are known as Blue Laws and some have been overturned in some jurisdictions but in others they persist. They were originally and, where they still occur, written to comply with the relevant commandments re observing the Sabbath.

You may find the following articles of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/bluelaws.html


Public Displays of Commandments

Many courthouses and public buildings in the U.S. including the Supreme Court display the ten commandments because the legal authorities in those jurisdictions believe they have relevance to the secular laws they promulgate, pass into law and enforce. These displays are the objected to by atheists and religious faiths which do not endorse or follow the commandments.

U.S. Legal Tender

If you have a Jefferson nickel or a Lincoln penny read the words on it. Also check your Washington dollars or Hamilton ten dollar bills. You will find the words “In God We Trust” which are placed there by secular law specifying the wording on legal Tender. Such a sentiment is embeded in the ten commandments and it is not unreasonable that the lawmakers specified this wording because they were provoked or inspired to do so in order to comply with the relevant commandment or commandments.

Adultery & Coveting Thy Nieghbors Wife, etc.

According to a report in the Washington Post, a man in Luray, Virginia recently pled guilty to adultery, a crime for which the maximum penalty is a $250 fine. Ironically, it wasn't his wife who complained; it was apparently his lover. (He reportedly has reconciled with his wife.)

This case is a potent reminder--particularly for the man charged--that adultery is in fact a crime in more than twenty states. Though the laws are seldom enforced, their existence still affects the way people behave.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html

 

[Mycroft]

Rubbish. Can you show me the law that forbids me to take the Lord's name in vain?

I never claimed there was such a law. The claim that I’m defending is that some of our laws are founded on the ten commandments, not that they’re exact copies.

Rubbish. The Sabbath day was simply meant to be one day of the week where you should rest. Originally, it was Saturday. And the commandment is about keeping it holy. Can you show me the law that says I have to keep the day of the Sabbath holy?

Again, I never claimed there was a law to keep the Sabbath holy, but certainly our tradition of making Sunday a day of rest is rooted in the Ten Commandments.

Rubbish. Can you show me the law that says I have to honor my father and mother?

Who controls your life until you’re 18?

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where murder was allowed?

I never claimed the prohibition was exclusive to Christianity.

Rubbish. Divorce is not given solely because of adultery, and you are not required to divorce your spouse, even though (s)he commits adultery. Unless you can show me the law that says you have to?

I never claimed divorce is given solely because of adultery, nor that you’re required to divorce your spouse.

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where theft was allowed?

Again, I didn’t claim any exclusivity.

But not particularly Christian. Can you name one society where perjury was allowed?

Again, I don’t claim exclusivity, and I don’t see that it’s required to sustain my point.

Rubbish. The commandment is specifically about coveting. Can you show me one law that forbids me to want your new car?

Again, I never claimed that modern law in any way was an exact copy of the Ten Commandments, I only support the claim that many laws have a foundation in them.

Rubbish. That has nothing to do with legislation being based on the 10 Commandments.

What, you don’t think at some point there was a law stating “In God We Trust” would be placed on our money?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Thanks Mycroft for jogging my memory regarding the logical relevance of some of the commandments to the law. Here is part of a discussion on the subject which discusses the taking of god's name in vain or swearing and profanity using god or jc as part of the "oath;" and of course the old favorite of blasphemy.:

Such laws are now a part, and have always been a part of American law. The earliest examples are found in the first colonial charter in 1629. From that time forward, a common thread in nearly every colonial charter listed as crimes swearing, or cursing, or profaneness; and besides these, the other forms of taking God's name in vain, namely, perjury (bearing false witness) and blasphemy. Justice Joseph Story summarized the common standard from which these laws were drawn in every colony as thus: The laws of England, the common law, and the law of God, which latter law ranked as the guiding star of all law, especially the criminal code. (12)

Sure enough, profanity and obscenity laws sometimes have been too strict, and sometimes too lax, but never has there been a time when a majority of Americans have not found the value in setting legal limits, in regards to just how far a man or a woman may go in his or her profanities, obscenities, and vulgarities in public settings.

It's just not true, to say that God's laws against profanity are not part of the legal code, and not, in fact, an important part of that code.

To this day, extremes in obscenity are not recognized as protected speech; nor are certain forms of lewd speech, which rank as either sexual harassment when between adult and adult, or a crime of the rankest dye when between adult and child. Most public schools have codes of conduct which prohibit profanity, and the courts have backed the right of schools to set such prohibitions. For a long while communication law has prohibited words from being uttered on the air, either for all audiences, or during certain hours, or during time blocks when children are most likely to be tuned in. The movie industry is, by law, required to rate movies in respect to the moral and religious values of parents and children.

Few of us object to such reasonable standards, and so it just doesn't make sense to propose to claim that there are no limits to free speech, that such things as sexual harassment, or lewd speech directed at a minor are protected because they are private. There are reasonable limits, and here's the truth, one of the roots of these reasonable limits is found in the third commandment's prohibition against profanity.

This article then moves on to hate speech and covers other subjects involving the role of the commandments in the legal system.

http://www.opinionet.com/article.php?id=833

 

[CFLarsen]

Sabbath Observance-Secular Laws

In response to request for examples of laws that may have been inspired by the Ten Commandments in addition to the obvious ones prohibiting murder, theft and perjury:

Nice moving of the goalposts. Now, there are laws that may have been inspired by the 10 Commandments...

What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Who has defined this "proposed jihad zone"?

Where is your evidence that three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury?

I never claimed there was such a law. The claim that I’m defending is that some of our laws are founded on the ten commandments, not that they’re exact copies.

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

Again, I never claimed there was a law to keep the Sabbath holy, but certainly our tradition of making Sunday a day of rest is rooted in the Ten Commandments.

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

Who controls your life until you’re 18?

That is irrelevant as to whether you have to honor your father and mother. Can you show me the law that says I have to honor my father and mother?

I never claimed the prohibition was exclusive to Christianity.

Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.

I never claimed divorce is given solely because of adultery, nor that you’re required to divorce your spouse.

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

Again, I didn’t claim any exclusivity.

Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.

Again, I don’t claim exclusivity, and I don’t see that it’s required to sustain my point.

Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

Again, I never claimed that modern law in any way was an exact copy of the Ten Commandments, I only support the claim that many laws have a foundation in them.

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

What, you don’t think at some point there was a law stating “In God We Trust” would be placed on our money?

Where is it? Where does it say it is the god behind the 10 Commandments? If you can't show us that, then your point is irrelevant.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Murder
Theft
Perjury
Obey mom and pop - age of consent laws
Obey the sabbath - blue laws
Have no other god before thee - legal tender/court house mottos. swearing on bibles
Adultery/Do Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife - adultery laws in 20 US States


All covered in (U.S.) secular blue laws, laws against adultery, murder, theft, perjury, age of legal consent, legal tender mottos (which do not say In Zeus We Trust) ....

8 out of 10 makes a pretty compelling case. I concede that Solon the Athenian and the Code of Hammurabi may've influenced the creation of some of the ten commandments.

But when one says "may" it's because there is no way of knowing which of these edicts influenced the minds of lawmakers over the past hundreds of years. No imaginary goalposts here. Only historical reality. Solon/Hammurabi steered clear of any god-related or sabbath related rules which leaves only the ten c's on that score.

 

[Mycroft]

No legal counterpoints in your law, then.
No legal counterpoints in your law, then.
No legal counterpoints in your law, then.
No legal counterpoints in your law, then.
No legal counterpoints in your law, then.

None of which is required in order to demonstrate that our laws have a
foundation in the Ten Commandments.

That is irrelevant as to whether you have to honor your father and mother. Can you show me the law that says I have to honor my father and mother?

I've already answered this: the same laws that allow your mother and father to control your life until you're 18 years old.

Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.
Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.
Then, bringing it up is irrelevant.

I disagree. Many ideas can be learned from multiple sources, but that doesn't invalidate the sources we do learn them from.

Where is it? Where does it say it is the god behind the 10 Commandments? If you can't show us that, then your point is irrelevant.

The irony here is it wasn't very long ago that you were the one arguing that the United States was founded on biblical teachings.

 

[whitefork]

The irony here is it wasn't very long ago that you were the one arguing that the United States was founded on biblical teachings.

I'd like to think Steve's hip to that too.

 

[Beerina]

I think you're right, Beerina. Didn't Bush say something about, "They hate us for our freedom?" That must be why he's whittling away at our freedoms with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, NSA wiretapping . . . etc.

He IS making our world a safer place!

Hence the second half of my post...

 

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Where is it? Where does it say it is the god behind the 10 Commandments?

from Wikipedia entry on the Ten Commandments:

(1) Then God spoke all these words: (2) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

Wikipedia says there are 17 commandments, the above are Wikipedia's first ten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

 

[CFLarsen]

Murder
Theft
Perjury
Obey mom and pop - age of consent laws
Obey the sabbath - blue laws
Have no other god before thee - legal tender/court house mottos. swearing on bibles
Adultery/Do Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife - adultery laws in 20 US States


All covered in (U.S.) secular blue laws, laws against adultery, murder, theft, perjury, age of legal consent, legal tender mottos (which do not say In Zeus We Trust) ....

8 out of 10 makes a pretty compelling case. I concede that Solon the Athenian and the Code of Hammurabi may've influenced the creation of some of the ten commandments.

But when one says "may" it's because there is no way of knowing which of these edicts influenced the minds of lawmakers over the past hundreds of years. No imaginary goalposts here. Only historical reality. Solon/Hammurabi steered clear of any god-related or sabbath related rules which leaves only the ten c's on that score.

What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Who has defined this "proposed jihad zone"?

Where is your evidence that three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury?

None of which is required in order to demonstrate that our laws have a
foundation in the Ten Commandments.

Sure, if you want to demonstrate that there are legal counterpoints in your laws.

I've already answered this: the same laws that allow your mother and father to control your life until you're 18 years old.

Rubbish. Having other people control your life does not compel you to honor them.

I disagree. Many ideas can be learned from multiple sources, but that doesn't invalidate the sources we do learn them from.

It invalidates them, if you want to argue that Christianity is behind.

The irony here is it wasn't very long ago that you were the one arguing that the United States was founded on biblical teachings.

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not? You might just prove me right.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I'd like to think Steve's hip to that too.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen: What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Reply: Where in the quote cited did I say this. Anyway if you followed al Zawahiri's video on the subject, the zone stretches from Spain to Iraq. I am not sure of what the latitudes are but he was pretty clear on the longitudes. Considering the jihad in Africa and the ever increasing population of moslems in northern Europe I would speculate that the latitudes are from the tip of Africa north to the Arctic Circle.

Larsen: Who has defined this "proposed jihad zone"?

Reply: al Zawahiri, number 2 to bin Leden.

Larsen: Where is your evidence that three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury?

Reply: I am pretty sure the United States and its laws did not even exist let alone have any laws until long after the ten commandments were incorfporated into biblical lore.

 

[CFLarsen]

Larsen: What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Reply: Where in the quote cited did I say this.

Don't play coy, Steve. Post #52. Answer the question: What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Anyway if you followed al Zawahiri's video on the subject, the zone stretches from Spain to Iraq. I am not sure of what the latitudes are but he was pretty clear on the longitudes. Considering the jihad in Africa and the ever increasing population of moslems in northern Europe I would speculate that the latitudes are from the tip of Africa north to the Arctic Circle.

Name the countries, Steve.

Larsen: Who has defined this "proposed jihad zone"?

Reply: al Zawahiri, number 2 to bin Leden.

Where does he do that? Show your evidence, instead of dancing on coal, like you do now.

Larsen: Where is your evidence that three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury?

Reply: I am pretty sure the United States and its laws did not even exist let alone have any laws until long after the ten commandments were incorfporated into biblical lore.

Given your proven record of unsubstantiated claims, I don't care about you being "pretty sure". Show your evidence, or admit you don't have it.

 

[Mycroft]

Sure, if you want to demonstrate that there are legal counterpoints in your laws.

Don't move the goalposts. What is demonstrated is that these laws have a foundation in the Ten Commandments. Your "legal counterpoints" is a vague and ill-defined term and not at all anything that I've been arguing.

Rubbish. Having other people control your life does not compel you to honor them.

It invalidates them, if you want to argue that Christianity is behind.

How are they invalidated?

What is Christianity supposed to be behind? Is that a typo?

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not? You might just prove me right.

What other god would be a candidate?

 

[CFLarsen]

Don't move the goalposts. What is demonstrated is that these laws have a foundation in the Ten Commandments. Your "legal counterpoints" is a vague and ill-defined term and not at all anything that I've been arguing.

I'm not moving the goalposts. You are.

If you don't want to argue that there are legal counterpoints (which you do in post #61), then don't.

Do you really think this is the case? That you honor people who control you, and that this is determined by law?

How are they invalidated?

What is Christianity supposed to be behind? Is that a typo?

Do you think you could make an effort of following your own line of reasoning? You argued that there were legal counterpoints in your laws based on the Christian faith. It's your call to provide the evidence.

What other god would be a candidate?

Can you show me where it says it is the god behind the 10 Commandments or not?