Afghani Eject Computer Experts

[Trantor]

I once owned a Koran and actually tried to read it. I say "tried" because my purpose in reading it was out of curiousity only and after about the first few chapters and a bit of skipping around, I simply could not stand it anymore. It seemed to be very heavy on what is expected behavior and went into great detail, listing the turtures and punishments in Hell that awaited those who did not follow the religious laws.

I claim no expertise in the book, but the little that I saw was enough for me to put it down. It was a bit like some of the Old Testament stuff, but on Steroids.

 

[Elind]

Secular laws based on the tablets predate Robertson and Bush. The important question is it true or not?

I presume you have some evidence as good as the written ten commandments to support the neanderthal assertion? Did neanderthals live up to Moses' time?

What I notice here is that you completely ignore the substance of my post.

 

[SteveGrenard]

What I notice here is that you completely ignore the substance of my post.

Sorry, must have missed the substance. I felt I addressed the points in the post. I don't look for hidden meanings.

 

[CFLarsen]

Sorry, must have missed the substance. I felt I addressed the points in the post. I don't look for hidden meanings.

Then, you can answer Tony's question from post #33.

 

[Elind]

Sorry, must have missed the substance. I felt I addressed the points in the post. I don't look for hidden meanings.

I just read it again, and it wasn't invisible to me.

Which of those rule have actual legal counterpoints in our laws? Let's see, I can come up with 3. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness.

And I seem to say that only an idiot would think humans prior to Moses didn't have those laws. (The stuff about Neanderthals was a joke. Forget it, since it seems to have been a dud).

 

[SteveGrenard]

Yes, there are three in American law:

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Adultery may still be illegal in someplaces. Breaking any commandments in a country operating under Shari'a can earn you amputation, decapitation, flogging, castration .....

I still don't get the basis for the neanderthal reference...

 

[Tony]

Yes, there are three in American law:

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Correlation is not causation. Do you have any evidence that the author of these laws directly cited the 10 commandements as his sole bases for instituting said laws?

Adultery may still be illegal in someplaces. Breaking any commandments in a country operating under Shari'a can earn you amputation, decapitation, flogging, castration .....

If breaking the commandments warrents a punishment, then it's not secular law.

 

[CFLarsen]

Correlation is not causation. Do you have any evidence that the author of these laws directly cited the 10 commandements as his sole bases for instituting said laws?

I can't wait to hear the answer to that one...

 

[SteveGrenard]

Since the ten commandments are found in koranic law, and koranic law metes out punishment based violating them plus myriad other and additional violations and specifications, the proof is self evident. Under Shari'a there is no secular law so your point is moot. The jihadists you are defending and I am warning you against want to replace secular law with Shari'a.

In secular law the issue is contentious because only three of the 10 to 16 commandments occurs in secular law. A ppt. of this subject can be found here:

students.washington.edu/ysezgin/LSJ380/week2.ppt


Religious Foundations of the Law in the West: A Historical Perspective.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Adultery occurs in secular divorce law as a cause of action for non-muslims. If one of the wife of a muslim is adulterous she doesn't have to worry about divorce, she wll be killed.

 

[Elind]

Since the ten commandments are found in koranic law, and koranic law metes out punishment based violating them plus myriad other and additional violations and specifications, the proof is self evident.

What proof of what is self evident?

I thought you were claiming the 10 Cs were the "basis" of our secular laws

 

[SteveGrenard]

In the U.S. there are 3 of the commandments which are incorporated into secular law: those against killing, against stealing and against comitting perjury. If you feel I said all the commandments I apologize.

In countries like Saudi Arabia and
Afghanistan the "secular" law, all of it, is
Shari'a and includes all of the
commandments. This is what is coming to a
government near you if the jihad from Spain to Iraq as called for by Zawahiri takes place. Today Italy, which is more or less midway in this proposed jihad zone, did a major sweep of moslems, arresting 40 with
questionnable status. No indication what this means at this time.

 

[Elind]

In the U.S. there are 3 of the commandments which are incorporated into secular law: those against killing, against stealing and against comitting perjury. If you feel I said all the commandments I apologize.

snip

I thought you said the commandments were the basis of OUR secular law (never mind if some are not today, but might have been yesterday, but discarded due to innate injustice).

I say NONE of them have anything whatsoever to do with the basis of our system of justice. Most certainly they are not the BASIS for it.

You persist in saying that now 3 of the commandments are incorporated.

They are not incorporated, they just happen to be the same, more or less, since no human society would have functioned long enough to give us Moses and his fictitious tablets if they didn't have those simple conventions.

And as Tony said, correlation is not causation. Do you understand those big words?

As an aside, I just realized I just agreed with Tony. Damn. Now I have to drop the sig (after this post).

ETA: I just realized that dropped all my posted sigs. Hmmm I'll have to think about that....

 

[Tony]

Since the ten commandments are found in koranic law, and koranic law metes out punishment based violating them plus myriad other and additional violations and specifications, the proof is self evident. Under Shari'a there is no secular law so your point is moot. [/COLOR]

Then why did you bring it up in a discussion about the roots of secular law?

The jihadists you are defending and I am warning you against want to replace secular law with Shari'a.

Who is defending jihadists?!?

 

[Polaris]

No, they didn't. Let's review, shall way?

1. I am the Lord thy God. (Not, to my knowledge, currently enshrined in secular law.)
2. No graven images of what is in the heavens above. (Nope, no law there, either.)
3. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. (Goddammit! No laws broken there...)
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (Blue laws not withstanding, there's really no secular law keeping me from doing whatever the $%^& I want on Shabbos.)
5. Honor your father and mother. (Do I really need to even go there?)
6. Thou shalt not kill/murder. (OK, something secular, finally. However, I think I can safely say that the secular prohibition against wacking people dates back before the Ten C.)
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Definitely no secular law here.)
8. Thou shalt not steal. (The second one enshrined in law, but again, this goes back before the Commandments.)
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness. (Debatable, I suppose. Lying is perfectly legal, except under certain legal conditions--and that's more of a practical need to try and keep witnesses honest than a holdover from the ten commandments.)
10. No covetting of other people's stuff. (Well, hell, wanting other people's stuff is the basis of capitalist economy. How are you going to form a law against that?)

So, final score:

Two commandments that are definitely in secular law, however, it seems that in those cases the Big Ten are based on the secular law rather than vice-versa. Or there's widespread agreement that killing and stealing are Bad.

One commandment (bearing false witness) that could be considered the basis of a secular law, but the law seems more based on practical need than religious imperative.

So at best we're talking 3/10, and those three are questionable as to whether they REALLY "form the basis of secular law."

Thank you - this is one of the biggest lines of BS touted out by the Bill O'Reillys of the world.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Then why did you bring it up in a discussion about the roots of secular law?

There was no discussion of secular law. There was a discussion of Christianity versus Islam and the commandments came up. Muslims alone do not embrace the commandments. I wrote:

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury. I appreciate the fact there is considerable debate favoring the removal of the commandments from courthouses including the U.S. supreme court where those favoring removal say there is no relation between the commandments and any secular laws and those who claim that such a relationship or basis exists. I am also old enough to remember a time, right or wrong, when one swore to god, holding their hand on the bible, before they testified in court and this too was a required part of judicial procedure.

Mr. Larsen seems to feel that the three major faiths do not embrace the ten commandments. But that’s his problem. And the issue of whether at least 3 of the commandments coincidentally or not are also secular law will remain debated
by those biased for or against the public display of the tablets with those in favor of removal crediting the Greeks, not the Neanderthals, with forming the basis for secular law.

And yes, while the diversion has been interesting, one here claims that Neanderthal Man had laws against killing, stealing and committing perjury. I wonder how that poster knows this and I am still interested in evidence for this. Are there cave drawings or something like that which support this? Like it or not this was part of the substance of that post.

Can we please have the Neanderthal legal system explained? Thank you. Because if Neanderthals had such rules before the ten commandments were written then obviously the commandments are not the basis for secular laws. The Neanderthal legal system is.

If a separate thread is necessary to discuss Neanderthals and the law we could start one.

 

[merentha]

Strange that somewhere on the other side of the globe, the Buddha was able to teach against killing, stealing and lying when he and the society in his time were neither Jewish, Christian nor Islamic. Did God speak to the Buddha? That'll be ludicrous since the Buddha denies any such all-powerful Creator God.

 

[Elind]

Can we please have the Neanderthal legal system explained? Thank you. Because if Neanderthals had such rules before the ten commandments were written then obviously the commandments are not the basis for secular laws. The Neanderthal legal system is.

If a separate thread is necessary to discuss Neanderthals and the law we could start one.

I think you are being serious, and a fruitcake, all at the same time. Sheesh.

ETA. This could be a good replacement sig....Naahh.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Yes, good one. I forgot since I am not allowed to joke on this forum. I know from studying the Flintstones that they did have laws.

Elind wrote:

And I seem to say that only an idiot would think humans prior to Moses didn't have those laws. (The stuff about Neanderthals was a joke. Forget it, since it seems to have been a dud).

 

[CFLarsen]

In the U.S. there are 3 of the commandments which are incorporated into secular law: those against killing, against stealing and against comitting perjury. If you feel I said all the commandments I apologize.

But you did, Steve:

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.

Clearly, you meant all 10. When you found out (probably by checking what the 10 Commandments actually were), you blame others for misunderstanding you. Nice.

In countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan the "secular" law, all of it, is Shari'a and includes all of the commandments. This is what is coming to a government near you if the jihad from Spain to Iraq as called for by Zawahiri takes place.

Today Italy, which is more or less midway in this proposed jihad zone, did a major sweep of moslems, arresting 40 with questionnable status. No indication what this means at this time.

What countries comprise of this "proposed jihad zone"?

Who has defined this "proposed jihad zone"?

There was no discussion of secular law. There was a discussion of Christianity versus Islam and the commandments came up.

You brought up the 10 Commandments and claimed they all formed much of secular law. You have not been able to back that up with evidence.

Three of the commandments clearly predate secular laws against killing, stealing and perjury.

Evidence?

Mr. Larsen seems to feel that the three major faiths do not embrace the ten commandments. But that’s his problem.

No, Steve. It is your problem that you don't understand what the relationship with the 10 Commandments and the three religions are.

And the issue of whether at least 3 of the commandments coincidentally or not are also secular law will remain debated by those biased for or against the public display of the tablets with those in favor of removal crediting the Greeks, not the Neanderthals, with forming the basis for secular law.

It may be. But you claimed that all the 10 Commandments formed much of secular law. You have not been able to back that up with evidence.

And yes, while the diversion has been interesting, one here claims that Neanderthal Man had laws against killing, stealing and committing perjury. I wonder how that poster knows this and I am still interested in evidence for this. Are there cave drawings or something like that which support this? Like it or not this was part of the substance of that post.

Can we please have the Neanderthal legal system explained? Thank you. Because if Neanderthals had such rules before the ten commandments were written then obviously the commandments are not the basis for secular laws. The Neanderthal legal system is.

If a separate thread is necessary to discuss Neanderthals and the law we could start one.

You brought this up, Steve. Don't try to shift the onus on someone else, just because yet another wild claim of yours bites the dust.