acupuncture?

[Acupuncture]

ig·no·rance (ĭg'nər-əns) Pronunciation Key
n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

You seem to be all of these things when it comes to the topic of acupuncture.

You will only accept what you will accept, and are completely uninformed.

 

[JJM]

ig·no·rance (ĭg'nər-əns) Pronunciation Key
n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

You seem to be all of these things when it comes to the topic of acupuncture.

You will only accept what you will accept, and are completely uninformed.

I know more about acupuncture than you do; although, not from the quack perspective.

However, I thank you for observing that "ignorant" may be the wrong word to describe your argument. When you write

I feel confident I can defend the art.

and then

But whatever it's not my job to defend a 5000 year old art,"

I am at a loss for words, such blatantly contradictory thinking is so rare. Perhaps I should call it disjointed. Do you have a definition for that?

Wouldn't it be simpler to acknowlege that (contrary to your claims) you have no reliable evidence. Instead, you argue definitions that plumb the depths of your ignorance; and then fail to defend your stance (as you claimed, and then denied- which is it?)?

 

[a.real.girl]

ig·no·rance (?g'n?r-?ns) Pronunciation Key
n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

You seem to be all of these things when it comes to the topic of acupuncture.

You will only accept what you will accept, and are completely uninformed.

Wait- you use evidence such as a pronunciation key and dictionary when you want to throw sass around to bolster your arguement. So, you understand the effectiveness of evidence. Nice job.

Find some to support your ideas about acupuncture, maybe you won't have to resort to taunts and teases....

-A

 

[Acupuncture]

I said it's not my job to defend, but to offer. I said I feel I can defend based on experience, observation, and due to the fact I know it is a very real medicine.

Nothing contradictory, it's not my job. I didn't need to sign up for this forum, but in the face of bliding ignornance I wanted to put out an alternative view.

I am a skeptical, critical thinker, who thought this energy talk was a bunch of ********, but after giving in and reaping the benefits I can't deny it works. I spend my days with hundreds of people studying this medicine, and if one of these people brought up that it has no real benefit they would be laughed out of the room, because that would be like the stupidest comment ever.

In almost every culture anectodes or teaching stories are the basis of knowledge, only in modern thought does published fact become the only thing accepted.

I know you're wrong, and find it funny how adament you are in your stance.

 

[a.real.girl]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you knew I was wrong.

Of course, I forgot that you don't need evidence to know what you know, so there you go.

Good luck with your anectdotes, Acu. And your skepcism and critical thinking.

-A

 

[Acupuncture]

Wait- you use evidence such as a pronunciation key and dictionary when you want to throw sass around to bolster your arguement. So, you understand the effectiveness of evidence. Nice job.

Find some to support your ideas about acupuncture, maybe you won't have to resort to taunts and teases....

-A

He called me ignorant, I just pointed out that by definition he appeared way more ignorant than I. And then he told me he knows more about acupuncture than a person who has studied it for many years.

 

[Acupuncture]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you knew I was wrong.

Of course, I forgot that you don't need evidence to know what you know, so there you go.

Good luck with your anectdotes, Acu. And your skepcism and critical thinking.

-A

I do know you are wrong. I have plenty of evidence, and don't need a scientist to tell me what I have observed with my senses. It's pretty easy to see it works, when you have hundreds of treatments that work, and see people who experience the benefit daily.

 

[a.real.girl]

No, you know what you've seen.

You know nothing at all about me except that I have asked for independently verifiable evidence. Unless, of course, you just make stuff up, as you have. Feel free to feel as sorry for me as you'd like.

How very skeptical of you.

-A

 

[Acupuncture]

Please post your verifiable evidence that acupuncture doesn't work and has never helped anyone. I could use a laugh.

 

[a.real.girl]

Dude. I'm not here to amuse you, and it's not my job to prove you're working without factual evidence. It is your job to prove your assertion. That's the way the real world works.

Welcome to the party, Acu. It'd be great to have you if you stepped up.

 

[Acupuncture]

Dude. I'm not here to amuse you, and it's not my job to prove you're working without factual evidence. It is your job to prove your assertion. That's the way the real world works.

Welcome to the party, Acu. It'd be great to have you if you stepped up.

So I am to take your assertion that acupuncture doesn't work, and is ******** as fact, because there isn't scientific data that prooves it, but you can't provide me scientific data that disprooves it?

Doesn't seem quite fair.

 

[JoeEllison]

ig·no·rance (ĭg'nər-əns) Pronunciation Key
n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

You seem to be all of these things when it comes to the topic of acupuncture.

You will only accept what you will accept, and are completely uninformed.

Guess what? The folks here generally know more about stuff than the believers. Unlike a believer, we do research before rejecting or accepting something as being likely. Believers simply accept, and then reject all contrary statements and evidence.

Don't believe me? Notice that the first thing people did in this thread was ask to see your evidence. That's what we base decisions on. Believers, on the other hand... if you don't have solid evidence, you are basing your belief on ignorance.

 

[Acupuncture]

Guess what? The folks here generally know more about stuff than the believers. Unlike a believer, we do research before rejecting or accepting something as being likely. Believers simply accept, and then reject all contrary statements and evidence.

Don't believe me? Notice that the first thing people did in this thread was ask to see your evidence. That's what we base decisions on. Believers, on the other hand... if you don't have solid evidence, you are basing your belief on ignorance.

I spent 22 years being a non-beleiver and it nearly killed me. Gave in out of desperation, and it saved my life. And you don't know nearly as much as I do about acupuncture, I have taken classes for years.

You read the sham acupuncture article and did a lil jig, pat yourself on the back. The article was flawed.

 

[JoeEllison]

So I am to take your assertion that acupuncture doesn't work, and is ******** as fact, because there isn't scientific data that prooves it, but you can't provide me scientific data that disproves it?

Doesn't seem quite fair.

Adopting an adult viewpoint means accepting that things aren't fair... and that they aren't what you want them to be just because we really want it to be that way.

In this case, the positive claim is the one that bears the burden of proof. "Acupuncture is real" is a positive claim, so you should be able to back it up. If your evidence amounts to "you can't prove me wrong", then you are going into Invisible Pink Unicorn country.

 

[JoeEllison]

I spent 22 years being a non-beleiver and it nearly killed me. Gave in out of desperation, and it saved my life. And you don't know nearly as much as I do about acupuncture, I have taken classes for years.

You read the sham acupuncture article and did a lil jig, pat yourself on the back. The article was flawed.

So, you think that your best bet is to show up here, make unfounded claims, and then insult people when they ask for evidence? Smooth move, kiddo.

And, frankly, admitting to emotional distress made better by adopting a belief system is exactly what we expect. We could easily speculate that the need for a belief was paramount, and what that belief actually entails in secondary. If you had stumbled across astrology or colonics, you'd be equally affected by it.

 

[Deetee]

Also I've had hundreds of food/envionmental/chemical allergies disappear from treatment.

I've had hundreds of green goblin curses disappear with chocolate raisin therapy. This is proof that it works.

 

[Mongrel]

In almost every culture anectodes or teaching stories are the basis of knowledge, only in modern thought does published fact become the only thing accepted.

That's because we also worked out just how good humans are at self delusion, bias and ego. Whilst the scientific method can't cut humans out the loop it does greatly limit the damage the above can cause.

 

[JoeEllison]

I've had hundreds of green goblin curses disappear with chocolate raisin therapy. This is proof that it works.

Yes, but does it work on hobgoblin curses as well? I've tried nacho cheese treatments, with only partial success.

 

[a.real.girl]

So I am to take your assertion that acupuncture doesn't work, and is ******** as fact, because there isn't scientific data that prooves it, but you can't provide me scientific data that disprooves it?

Doesn't seem quite fair.

OK, I'll go slow, but just this last time.

1) Please provide evidence, from the thread above, or ANYWHERE else of any assertion that I made that acupuncture doesn't work.

2) I can't prove a negative, you caught me. Apparently, you can't prove a positive or a negative, so you're one up on me. Nice work.

3) Please provide any sort of data or evidence that is not strictly in your own head, but follows something reasonable recognizable as a scientific method or objective study. I've just done a little looking myself, and have been unable to find this. I wholehearted assert that this does not mean it does not exist.

I am not baiting you, I'm asking for you to support your findings. With data other people can access independently. Like any reasonable medical treatment. Warts and all, it's ok, I can take it. Doesn't have to be perfect, just has to be verifiable.

It's not about what's fair. That's why it's the real world. I'll say it again, I'm glad you're here, but unless you're going to provide something other than your own experience, I can't do anything but say "glad your here."

Unlike you, who seem to be able to make all kinds of assumptions about me, and call those assumptions "knowledge."

 

[hoemaco]

"The basic idea of acupuncture is the body has energy, physics tells us that."
One thing I learned in school is that energy is one of the most obscure and abstract ideas in physics (though enthropy rulez). But generally speaking, we defined it as 'the ability to exert force, to make changes in our environment' or something like that. Now we surely do have it, but that doesn't say anything about the details. One of the problems with TCM, imo, is that during the 5000 or so years, they were pretty convinced that it works (and maybe it did, maybe didn't), and just didn't feel the need to develop more advanced explanations for its mechanism. That is, we're still stuck with the ancient mystical explanations, when we (more correctly, they) could go for some scientific expl, involving maybe electrons, ions, etcetera. Though the voltmeter test seems to go this way, it seemed to me just a 'show', with no background explanation...

"The millivolt meter can show that there is an energetic current that is stronger in some places and less strong in others, as the previous poster pointed out. "

Well, I've never met a current that was not energetic, that is, having energy.

I have learned (and used) Ampere's laws in my practice - I presume the same could be used here - why doesn't someone go and analyze our body based on local resistivity and capacity and electrolyte concentration etc? (Oh, maybe then you'd not be able to sell this thing ? I feel that more people buy it if it's mystical than if it's scientific / and maybe it'd turn out there's nothing in it).
An interesting test would be to sum up those energy readings to see if they satisfy conservation laws... (I just can't imagine a current going in my body and becoming stronger in some places without some other currents adding to it).

Also, to point out, the voltmeter measures potential, not current. An open circuit can have voltage (potential difference), without having current. (Though I accept there are currents in our body, at least as far as I know in our muscles and nerves).

After spending two days of kayaking to cause severe pains in my muscles the idea of making it go away in a matter of minutes and needles escapes me. (or maybe i misunderstand the concept). That's almost like recovering from alcohol toxication in five minutes on monday morning.

"My guess would be at the tips of the fingers and toes would be the strongest reading."
You said you know acupuncture, didn't you? Then you should know there are so many points just on your palm which have a high reading. I'll take a foto of the stuff next time for u.

'Think about a river, if you stick a log in it, it is going to change the flow of the water. In a similiar way if you needle into an an energetic flow it can change the direction of that flow, which when done properly can have healing properties.'

Have you ever played in a river in your childhood? It must be a very small river or very big stick to have apparent effect. And usually the effect can rather be described as perturbance (which usually has a negative meaning). As far as man tried to intervene in river's flow, it usually becomes more dangerous.

Though as my teacher says, every analogy is lame, but not every lame is analogous (sorry, hard to translate from hungarian, hope you got the idea).

(btw real.girl are you of hungarian descent ? Nice to see professional women in the sceptic corner)

PS. Speaking about chinese medicine, the asian 'groceries' are really an interesting sight, with all the dried mushrooms, plants, seaweed, squids, and all the things I'm afraid to ask about :-D My favorite is the black chicken, which is (of course) said to have healing properties. It's pretty frightening, being totally black inside and outside... I'd like to know if they ever tested these things in labs..