acupuncture?

[a.real.girl]

(btw real.girl are you of hungarian descent ? Nice to see professional women in the sceptic corner)

Nope, I'm married in. My father-in-law came to the states in 1958, and I married his son born in the midwestern US.

But I do love lescho (sp?)

Anyhow, welcome.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Acupuncture,

It's not the people in this forum who you have to convince, it's not skeptics in general you have to convince. Proponents of acupuncture have not convinced either Medicine or Science that it works. What proof do you have for them?

The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine headed by CAM believers, staffed by CAM believers and funded at over $120-million a year does not support your claims.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/#acupuncture

Does acupuncture work? For relief of pain, possibly.

 

[JoeEllison]

Also I've had hundreds of food/envionmental/chemical allergies disappear from treatment.

Hundreds? Suddenly, the picture becomes clearer... am I the only one who noticed this?

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Hundreds? Suddenly, the picture becomes clearer... am I the only one who noticed this?

No.

 

[JoeEllison]

No.

Here's the real question: Did you picture this:

Or this:

 

[BlackKat]

Joe you're mean. I had only just managed to forget about that Travolta movie.

 

[autumn1971]

What do you call an Eastern healer who is always on time?



Acupunctual!

I apologize.

 

[Mobyseven]

I swear to Vishnu, if I see or hear one more person asking me or anyone else to prove a negative, I may well spontaneously burst into flames and cause havoc along the Victorian coastline.

 

[autumn1971]

I swear to Vishnu, if I see or hear one more person asking me or anyone else to prove a negative, I may well spontaneously burst into flames and cause havoc along the Victorian coastline.

But you seem to accept that you may not. Prove that you will.

 

[Mobyseven]

But you seem to accept that you may not. Prove that you will.

That sounds you hear is the destruction of Geelong and Torquay. You had to be a smartass, eh?

 

[arthwollipot]

I have one question for Acu:

The basic idea of acupuncture is the body has energy, physics tells us that.

Can this energy be measured? With what kind of tool? What units of measurement do you use?

The reason I ask this question is that all kinds of energy that appear in physics can be measured. I'm interested to see what kind of energy is involved in acupuncture.

If you don't know, is there an expert you can ask?

 

[Normal Dude]

It's too bad that someone already mentioned the definition of energy on thread, because I was going to ask Acupuncture what he/she thinks energy is.

People hate it when I interrupt a woo session to ask for pesky things like definitions for the terms they use in every other sentence. Of course on the internet that doesn't work so well what with Google and all.

Prove that it ISN'T energy!!!

 

[Dabljuh]

so i tagged along with the fiancee when she visited her doctor today. on the front desk, we both noted a sign announcing that the medical group now offers acupuncture!

i'll admit that from the reading i've previously done i currently tend to dismiss acupuncture as complete crap. as silly as the idea sounds to me, the evidence is what is important-- though in this case, the fact is, i find the idea utterly retarded.

so what's going on? am i wrong? or, is the doc:

1. looking to make more money from all the psudeo-hippy-type-new-age folk in this town by offering something that the doc knows does not work, or
2. an actual believer in acupuncture?

and, if either of the above are the case, am i just being an ******* for thinking that perhaps my fiancee should find another doc? i'm just not that content with a doc that is illustrating either a willingness to lie, or a willingness to believe in crap.

i also noticed that wiki's entry for acupuncture didn't seem to have a "criticisms" section. rather than continuing to search elsewhere, i figured i'd post here. i have to do the dishes guys. it stinks in here. i mean, i've opened the windows, and that's not solving the case. it's just rank. help me guys, please.

i'll admit again that i'm quite biased against acupuncture. i expect it to be complete ********. but, i'll admit that i've been wrong before, and it's possible i am this time-- i just doubt it.

i'll also admit that i have great respect for doctors. in this case, the fact that a real doctor is advocating acupuncture has motivated me to question my own conclusions.

but it stinks in here. bad.

thanks all,
anthony.

(Not read the rest of the thread)
Basically, Acupuncture isn't total poo. The germans performed a large scale, serious study on the topic. They created three groups: A TCM acupuncture group that was treated with regular, TCM acupuncture, a group that was treated with a sort of "random poking with needles" type acupuncture, and a control group where, instead of acupuncture, people were simply given a massage of roughly the same length. No fake acupuncture needles were used. The goal was to assess whether acupuncture has any value for pain relief.

Result? TCM acupuncture and "random poking" acupuncture performed both equally well, and significantly better than the massage control group.

Interpretation: Poking someone with needles can actually have a pain-relieving effect. But: The TCM teachings of "Meridians" and "Chi flows" that are "congested" etc is bunk. The reason for the actual effect of pain relief is believed to be the release of endorphines when the brain stem is exposed to pain from the skin.

 

[Blue Wode]

Interpretation: Poking someone with needles can actually have a pain-relieving effect. But: The TCM teachings of "Meridians" and "Chi flows" that are "congested" etc is bunk. The reason for the actual effect of pain relief is believed to be the release of endorphines when the brain stem is exposed to pain from the skin.

In which case, some might ask why anyone would bother with the ritual of acupuncture in the first place.

This from Wallace Sampson, clinical professor emeritus of medicine at Stanford University and editor in chief of the Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine:

"If it has the effect of, say, releasing endorphins through the application of needles, well, many things release endorphins -- a walk in the woods, a 5-mile run, a pinch on the butt."

-snip-

"I look at it this way: what if acupuncture didn't exist?" he says. "Would medicine or society be any worse off? If no one knew about it, nothing would change. You would still have ways to apply counter-irritation, through massage or rubbing."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/31/NSGDOIM5RJ1.DTL&type=health

 

[T'ai Chi]

"If it has the effect of, say, releasing endorphins through the application of needles, well, many things release endorphins -- a walk in the woods, a 5-mile run, a pinch on the butt."

Um, politely.... so friggin what?

That's like saying well aspirin works, but so does just going to sleep and waking up without the headache, so therefore that casts doubts on aspirin.

Moreover, unless any acupunturists are claiming that only acupuncture releases endorphins and nothing else does, the above quoted complaint is pretty moot.

 

[Blue Wode]

That's like saying well aspirin works, but so does just going to sleep and waking up without the headache, so therefore that casts doubts on aspirin.

No, it doesn’t cast doubts on aspirin, it simply reminds us that there are often cheaper and more convenient methods of pain relief that are just as effective.

 

[Big Les]

ETA ^yes, quite. The point, TC, is that more than just an endorphin release effect has been claimed for acupuncture, enough to justify a "profession" and indeed a whole industry. The fact that it's been discovered to have pain relieving attributes is a big deal because it means:

a) There was something to it despite all the extraneous guff.
b) It should be possible to have a friend or relative safely administer similar treatment (or even do it yourself) without paying the BS practitoners through the nose.

Despite b), believers will tend to focus on a) and continue to use "professionals", partly because of the whole ritual aspect, and partly because they'd feel stupid having already thrown loads of cash down the swanney. And of course doing it yourself is literally self-harm, albeit in this case to relieve physical (or imagined physical) pain, rather than emotional distress.

 

[vIQleS]

Also I've had hundreds of food/envionmental/chemical allergies disappear from treatment.

Hundreds? Suddenly, the picture becomes clearer... am I the only one who noticed this?

No.

Damn - i was just about to post something about this...

Its a shame that acupuncture doesn't cure hypochondria or a tendency toward psychosomatic illnesses...

 

[Acupuncture]

HAHAHAH sick people are hilarious. Western medicine's answer to me having violent reactions to so many things was to avoid them. Wow profound, I'm sure the medical journals are buzzing with this breakthrough idea of avoiding things that make you feel bad. It's amazing and works so well!

It's great that you want to put me in a bubble, most of the doctors would have stuck me in there as well, but all it took was some acupuncture to free me from life threatening illness.

If you care more about journals, and scientific method than the welfafe of patients then you are all fighting a noble fight, make sure it's all documented and strict. Wouldn't want someone getting better because their brain tricked em, how horrible.

I care more about people, call me a humanitarian woo moron.

I don't "beleive" in acupuncture like a god or a beleif system, I beleive it helps people, I know it helps people.

None of this skeptical crap really matters when it comes down to the fact that in the face of any skeptic I've ever met I can rub a few points and they are on board with me. They see the shift in themselves. The meridians are there, any human being should be able to feel them if they know where they are, and most know a few of the points from being alive. (between the thumb and first finger, popular for releiving headaches). Why it does that is much more profound, but many people rub it without question.

But what do I know? I was sick at one point and should be laughed at.

 

[BlackKat]

HAHAHAH sick people are hilarious. Western medicine's answer to me having violent reactions to so many things was to avoid them. Wow profound, I'm sure the medical journals are buzzing with this breakthrough idea of avoiding things that make you feel bad. It's amazing and works so well!

It's great that you want to put me in a bubble, most of the doctors would have stuck me in there as well, but all it took was some acupuncture to free me from life threatening illness.

Relax there. Surely you can see the joke involved when you say something like this:

Also I've had hundreds of food/envionmental/chemical allergies disappear from treatment.

It sounds like you're referring to yourself. Like you had 200 allergies like the famous patients here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_in_the_Plastic_Bubble

I'm guessing you had originally meant your clients and just didn't construct the sentence in a clear manner. But it's funny to bring up forgotten bad movies with John Travolta. Laugh a little.

If you care more about journals, and scientific method than the welfafe of patients then you are all fighting a noble fight, make sure it's all documented and strict. Wouldn't want someone getting better because their brain tricked em, how horrible.

Skeptics can care too. The reason one wants evidence, peer-reviewed for potential errors, is because one wants to know something is not in fact harming the patients or doing absolutely nothing and bilking them of proper care and money.

I care more about people, call me a humanitarian woo moron.

I don't "beleive" in acupuncture like a god or a beleif system, I beleive it helps people, I know it helps people.

I don't feel you have said anything stupid enough to call you a moron. You just have exhibited a contempt of conventional medical care and acceptance of testimonial evidence. It is very possible you are well-meaning. But still wrong because you are relying on testimonial evidence over something measurable.

That is not to say that acupuncture has no chance of working, but if it does nobody has been able to provide evidence it does. Until that time there are plenty of evidence proven methods that do the same things you claim acupuncture capable of, but with facts to back them up.

None of this skeptical crap really matters when it comes down to the fact that in the face of any skeptic I've ever met I can rub a few points and they are on board with me. They see the shift in themselves. The meridians are there, any human being should be able to feel them if they know where they are, and most know a few of the points from being alive. (between the thumb and first finger, popular for releiving headaches). Why it does that is much more profound, but many people rub it without question.

Hey if you offer me a massage I'm not going to turn it down. I'm not letting you stick me in the rump with a knitting needle though.

But what do I know? I was sick at one point and should be laughed at.

If anyone on this board laughs "at" you then it would not be because you were/are sick. It might be because you make a claim which goes against evidence indicating otherwise without sufficient countering evidence.