A Thread for Democrats Being Useless

[I Am The Scum]

The biggest mistake, IMO, is that that group of people don't argue honestly. They're not in it to thrash the truth out, just to use all the rhetorical tactics to 'win' on their terms.

The Alt-Right Playbook has a really good dissection of them

This is what I was going to point out. Here's how I like to explain it: Flat-earthers are incredibly wrong people. Their mythology is much broader than a singular incorrect factual claim, and it's wrong all over. They mess up astronomy, geometry, perspective, history, physics... However, the average person on the street is not equipped to debate a flat-earther. When they say something like, "Gravity isn't real, it's just electromagnetism and density," most people won't really know how to respond to that. A neutral observer (supposing one could actually exist on this topic) would rightly note that the flat-earther made a lot of points for which the other person had no response. You don't want that being the lasting impression on a flat earth debate, and you definitely don't want a similar impression when a neo-Nazi has the stage.

 

[Tero]

Speaking of terrorists, Gavin Newsom continues his "why I left the left" tour with a Steve Banon interview.

I won't be voting for Newsom in the primaries. There is absolutely no reason to go to the center. That is like admitting government is useless but can we at least have Sesame Street back.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Glad it's on record that you're defending advocacy of terrorism.

I didn't know he was a Likud supporter. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I liked Ken White's take on it.

The only way such a show could work would be if he were to shout them down and end up having them cower in the corner from the righteous anger.

 

[Donal]

Chuck Schumer continues to be the most worthless Democratic politician since James Buchanan. He will buck the party he ostensibly leads to side with Republicans and vote to pass their continuing resolution.

"As bad as passing the CR is, allowing Donald Trump to take even more power via a government shutdown is a far worse option," Schumer said.

You mean the thing he's already doing that you have done nothing to prevent?

 

[d4m10n]

Chuck Schumer continues to be the most worthless Democratic politician since James Buchanan. He will buck the party he ostensibly leads to side with Republicans and vote to pass their continuing resolution.

Which aspects of the CR are so bad that you'd rather we live through government shutdown?

 

[Random]

Which aspects of the CR are so bad that you'd rather we live through government shutdown?

Well, the basic Liberal argument is that there is nothing in the CR that prohibits Trump/Musk from destroying the government agency by agency for the next year, and that Democrats filibustering the CR is quite literally the only legislative move they can make for a year*. And a year from now, there might not be anything left to save. A shutdown might give Trump/Musk the opportunity to pick and choose which agencies to open after the shutdown ends, and that sounds like a serious threat until you realize that they are destroying government agencies willy-nilly right now, and are announcing their intentions to continue to destroy government agencies in the future. If they are going to shoot the hostage anyway...

There are arguments that the Senate Dems are not prepared for this fight, that there are no clear goals, and the public doesn't understand what this fight is about, but those are less reasons for Chuck Schumer to throw in the towel for the Dems, and more like reasons for Dems to fire Schumer.

*There's a possibility that Dems could threaten a debt default in September, but that's a pipe dream. If Dems can't stop a Continuing Resolution, there is no way they are going to hold together for a Debt Ceiling fight. Even if they did, Trump would just mint the $Trillion coin to unilaterally end the standoff. You just know he would.

 

[Brainster]

Which aspects of the CR are so bad that you'd rather we live through government shutdown?

Matt Yglesias on why passing the CR is better than a shutdown:

1. If the problem with DOGE is they are laying off workers and curtailing programs that are vital and important, a shutdown also does those things!
2. Under the circumstances of an appropriations lapse, Trump and Musk can just furlough 100 percent of the federal workers they would like to lay off and declare whoever they don’t want to lay off “essential,” and they’ve already achieved their endgame.
3. Because the federal workers at the epicenter of the pushback against DOGE would all be either furloughed or else working without pay, pressure to cave to Trump would soon be coming from the very people Democrats are trying to help.

About the only reason I can see in favor of a shutdown is monkey-wrenching--intentionally making things as bad as possible.

 

[Donal]

Matt Yglesias on why passing the CR is better than a shutdown:

And that's all you need to know to see why its a bad idea

 

[Donal]

Which aspects of the CR are so bad that you'd rather we live through government shutdown?

For starters, they never stop at the Rhineland.

This just further surrendering to right-wingers and allowing President Musk to keep slashing the government anyway. there's no actual provisions to stop them. What in the current CR is actually going to stop them from doing the very thing we're supposed to be afraid of?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

After Trump excommunicated Schumer from his Jewish Heritage, he is being rewarded by a vote for his budget.

 

[johnny karate]

Which aspects of the CR are so bad that you'd rather we live through government shutdown?

Matt Yglesias on why passing the CR is better than a shutdown:

1. If the problem with DOGE is they are laying off workers and curtailing programs that are vital and important, a shutdown also does those things!
2. Under the circumstances of an appropriations lapse, Trump and Musk can just furlough 100 percent of the federal workers they would like to lay off and declare whoever they don’t want to lay off “essential,” and they’ve already achieved their endgame.
3. Because the federal workers at the epicenter of the pushback against DOGE would all be either furloughed or else working without pay, pressure to cave to Trump would soon be coming from the very people Democrats are trying to help.

About the only reason I can see in favor of a shutdown is monkey-wrenching--intentionally making things as bad as possible.

Capitulation is almost always encouraged by the people who will be least harmed by it.

 

[d4m10n]

For starters, they never stop at the Rhineland.

This is basically "I have no idea" but with more Godwin.

What in the current CR is actually going to stop them from doing the very thing we're supposed to be afraid of?

Presumably the same things in the extant CR which passed under Biden (the one which runs out tonight) unless they stripped something out which hasn't yet been mentioned. Left unstated here is that it is somehow the role of an appropriations bill to create checks and balances which are not found in other legislation, such as the impoundment act.

 

[d4m10n]

Seems to me that the non "useless" Democrats must have articulated some good reasons why this CR is so much worse than the previous one, linked above.

 

[Random]

This is basically "I have no idea" but with more Godwin.

Presumably the same things in the extant CR which passed under Biden (the one which runs out tonight) unless they stripped something out which hasn't yet been mentioned. Left unstated here is that it is somehow the role of an appropriations bill to create checks and balances which are not found in other legislation, such as the impoundment act.

That's basically the problem. Trump is ignoring the law right now with respect to Impoundment, and has publicly announced his intention to ignore laws against Impoundment in the future. There really is no reason for Democrats to vote on anything budget related if Trump can just pick and choose what he is going to pay attention to. The Congressional GOPers have long ago thrown their severed genitals onto Trump's dark altar, so they are no help.

So we are stuck in this budget shutdown standoff where Dems have to choose between using the only lever of power they have left to shut down the government in a probably futile and counterproductive effort to try to force Republicans to the table and make Trump play by the rules, or give up completely and let Trump break the rules as much as he wants.

Seriously, that's the choice.

Oh yeah, the CR also has a $1 Billion reduction in budget funding for the city of DC. This appears to have been added to the CR as an act of spite.

 

[Donal]

This is basically "I have no idea" but with more Godwin.

No, its learning from past mistakes. Try it some time.

Presumably

You don't know? You can only presume?

the same things in the extant CR which passed under Biden (the one which runs out tonight) unless they stripped something out which hasn't yet been mentioned. Left unstated here is that it is somehow the role of an appropriations bill to create checks and balances which are not found in other legislation, such as the impoundment act.

Other than an increase in military spending and massive cuts in medical research and housing spending. It also surrenders more decisions on spending to the executive.

 

[d4m10n]

So we are stuck in this budget shutdown standoff where Dems have to choose between using the only lever of power they have left to shut down the government in a probably futile and counterproductive effort to try to force Republicans to the table and make Trump play by the rules, or give up completely and let Trump break the rules as much as he wants.

It is not remotely obvious to me how shutting down the government is going to put the hurt on a political party which wants to see much of the government shut down. It is obvious to me how it harms the civil service, though, both in terms of lost pay and opportunity costs which will have to be made up down the road.

You don't know? You can only presume?

I would expect those in favor of shutting down the government to have a pretty clear and articulable reason why this new CR is so much worse than the last Biden CR.

 

[Susheel]

It's funny how those who were quite blase about an armed insurrection against the government, balk at a shutdown of the government. American centrism is weird.

 

[mikegriffith1]

It's funny how those who were quite blase about an armed insurrection against the government, balk at a shutdown of the government. American centrism is weird.

What "armed insurrection" against the government?

American centrism is not the least bit weird but is the way forward, since the majority of the country is center-right. Thank goodness there were nine sane Democrats in the Senate who were willing to vote to keep the government funded, and three cheers for Chuck Schumer for rejecting a filibuster.

 

[johnny karate]

What "armed insurrection" against the government?

American centrism is not the least bit weird but is the way forward, since the majority of the country is center-right. Thank goodness there were nine sane Democrats in the Senate who were willing to vote to keep the government funded, and three cheers for Chuck Schumer for rejecting a filibuster.

The armed insurrection occurred in same universe where the safety and efficacy of vaccines is a settled science. You should drop by for a visit sometime.