Ruby wrote:
It does seem I am talking about a different "legalism" from you. I have always heard legalism being used in terms of a church that sets up strict rules for it's members. I had also seen it described in the dictionary a similar way.
It is my understanding that legalism has nothing to how strict the rules are. There are many strict rules in different organizations and that does not make them legalist.
Legalism is the term used (and particularly in jurisprudence) in the strict INTEPRETATION of the text. It is synonymous with literalist. So someone might be called a legalist if he/she invokes the rule in it’s strictest definition. A legalist could say, that “thou shall not kill” means one can’t kill anything, including a cockroach.
from dictionary.com
strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit
The UU org. does not have strict rules.
I’m sure they do have strict rules. If they don’t, they wouldn’t function as an organization very well.
If it did, it would not allow legalistic Christians in it's churches.
Maybe, that’s not one of the rules.
You can be of any belief and attend a UU church. When I say they would re-emphasize their beliefs if someone legalitic came in and spoke up during a service, I mean that they would say how as UU's they don't hold to any creeds or religions, and yet embrace all, and how they believe in the dignity and worth and every human being, and that how they believe that religious authority is not found in a book, or a person, or an institution, but in ourselves.
Do you see how strict that sounds?
They would not want a newcomer thinking we agree with the legalistic ideas of the Christian. The legalistic Christian would not be banned or made to conform to the UU's belief sytem, but I don't see that they'd want to stay. Legalistic Christians want legalistic churches.
Your use of the word throws me off.
Maybe that is what you mean. Because I find Mr. Randi to be very legalistic and intolerant....
Wow, do you really?
Oh, yes, I had several exchanges with him. He is very much intolerant of Christians. And have you read the protocols to his million dollar challenge, they have to conform to the strictest of literary interpretation. In no way am I implying that they are not fair.
Well, naturally, I did not expect you to agree with me. For a long time, I was sort of brainwashed, too controlled to ever feel like I could choose. When you have the threat of hell hanging over your head if you do one little thing wrong, you dare not make any choices for yourself. You seek the leaders because they hear from God much better than you do. That is one thing I was taught as a Charismatic Christian. I could not even get engaged to be married without the permission of the leaders of the singles ministry. I did not think I had a choice. I was taught it was God's way. I was afraid not to do it any other way.
When I heard of others who had rejected the advice/ruling of a leader, and had left the church to do their own thing, even if they went to another church, I looked upon them as being "rebellious" and "rejecting" "authority" because that is what I had drummed into me to believe. They rejected so easily because most of them had not been in the Charismatic org. very long. I did not even realize this until later on.
You don't seem know a thing about cults or how they trap people, but forgive me if I am wrong. It just seems you would blame the people in them for being there. They are innocent pawns. I was an innocent pawn when I was sucked into the UPC. Some call it a cult, some don't. I don't think it's a cult in the exact definition of one. But it is definitely very legalisitc and abusive.
My husband and his entire family were innocent pawns of a real cult that snatched them up when my husband was just five years old. What a mess it made of his life and one of his brothers.....and his mother too. All cults come off as being something new, exciting, and more biblically accurate with a charismatic leader who exudes warmth and power and appeal.
My husband's parents were highly intelligent bible school graduates who longed for the mission field....felt a "calling" to go. They came across a Christian community that trained people to go into the mission field. They were very impressed with it. There was nothng suspicious about it. They started going to the training. They did make the choice to go there, but it was based on what seemed like a true Christian community. They were drawn into this community. There were a lot of incredible things about it. It had it's own farm and slaugther house and it's own schools. It made and sold all sorts of products that went by the name of Jollyfarmer. You can still find these products today in Canada. That is where the cult moved.
Anyhow, my husband's parents stayed at Highview (the cult) and were totally taken in by it all. My husband was raised there along with his five younger brothers. They grew up apart from each other......separated into different rooms. They weren't even allowed to stay with their parents, let alone play with each other.
I won't go into everything about it. I'd be here all day. The thing is, you can make a choice, but not be in your right mind when you make it, or be in your right mind, but get sucked into something evil.....slowly being brainwashed over time without ven realizing it, you can be under heavy influence or pressure, and I don't think that makes a person culpable for that choice.
Ok, we don’t agree. But let’s introduce some outside reference to our views. I say you are 100%, responsible, you say not.
Suppose they had asked you to commit a crime. Since you are not responsible for your actions, I would have to assume, that you would commit crimes, right?
Two possible ways you can go with that.
1. You say you would never commit crimes by the inducement of others.
If you go this way, you are accepting that you are responsible, you can make distinctions of what you will do and what you wont. The matter is settled.
2. You say you would commit crimes by the inducement of others.
If you go this route, most of the modern legal systems (if not all ) would not accept this. They would say, No, no, you are responsible for your crimes, you must pay. (remember the Charles Manson accomplices)
So, either way you go. You are responsible for your actions. This is a very important distinction to make. As a matter of fact, in the country you live in, personal responsibility is one of most important principles that guide your society. All of the rules set up in your country regarding rights and obligations have this principle as a given.
No, very wrong. The prison was what I lived in because of years of conditioning of the mind by church dogma and church leaders. I was held there for fear if I stopped believing, I would go to hell. I didn't sit back and say, oh this sounds good, I think I'll choose to beleive it. No, it was forced upon me, because I became a Christian out of desperation, as I did not think there was any other way to escape the torment I was going through at the time. I had not been looking for a church or anything. It was sheer terror that caused me to call the UPC. I did not know they were steeped in legalism. I was too desperate to care for awhile.
This argument seldom flies. (even the battered woman syndrome defense is very hard to prove, that being one of the few exceptions where personal responsibility is lifted. Another is insanity.)
It was a long process to get away from the hold of legalism. Did the church leaders support me in my quest to get away from legalism? No, they did not. Not one Christian helped me. I was preached at through the years....... and last year especially, even recently by an old friend, but the hold of that mindset had left me. Being on JREF, getting some questions answered......finally seeing the light away from the influence and preaching of Christians, I found freedom. I had help, but I made it happen. I was finally able to stand on my own feet with my own thoughts and feelings, and not worry that hell was waiting for me or billions of others, or worry that God was not pleased if I did not do things just so....as the church preached.
You admit that FINALLY your were able (by your own effort) to find freedom. (in my opinion, the freedom you always had.). You had the choice all the time, right?
Ceasing to exist and burning in a pit of fire for eternity are two different things. One is merciful and painless. One is cruel and painful. I don't know if I believe we cease exist after death anyway. How can one know unless you have died and come back to tell..........and that has never happened.
Atheists contend that after death, there is nothing. I’ve heard many people here say that if this God exists and if this is the punishment, then they wont worship such a God and prefer Hell. If this God is real and this is the punishment, you are entitled to have whatever opinion of Him you want. He gives you this right.
My opinion is that He is a loving, merciful God.
Yes, I have seen both these type of cases many times. When I talk about change, I am talking about how as a Christian, I was bound in so much fear that I could not drive a lot of places. I could not go a lot of places by myself. My husband had to take me to every Doctor visit, and go with me...in the examing room that is. I could not answer the phone or make phone calls. I would not fly on airplanes. Now, I can drive all over the place. I drive and go in to all my Doc appt's by myself. I can answer the phone and make phone calls. I have even been able to fly!! To me, that is miracle!! I had not flown in years, and had sworn I would never fly again, but I flew this past November and December on a trip to New England.
I’m confused. I don’t see a connection between the fears you describe and being a Christian. Why did Christianity cause you to fear flying of answer the phone?
I've never heard of any company that says women can't wear make-up, cut their hair, or wear wedding bands. I can understand some companies having a dress code such as suits and dresses only. As a manager of an Engineering department, my husband rarely needs to wear a suit, but he certainly can't go into work dressed slouchy or in jeans. I don't know anything about corporate america....but I can imagine it's suits and ties and dresses. I don't have a problem with that at all. It's a job, not a religion. It's not condemning you to hell for how you dress. You might get fired, but you won't get condemned to hell and counted lost. Besides, most people would dress like a monkey if the pay is good!!
My point is that every organization has rules, and many have very strict rules. The rules is not the problem.
Forgive me, I have to comment. Although the UPC taught very much against using curse words, and so no one I ever met in the UPC used it, my close friends did incessantly call black people the "N" word, which to me, was a curse word. This upset me so much, but I was too afraid to say anything.
The following of rules must come from a place of conviction, not legalism right? Not cursing but calling black people the N word, is hypocrisy. I know you agree with me on this.
I did meet many Charismatics, and regular fundamentalist Christians who cursed......some pretty bad. It shocked me. They showed me the curse words in the old king James bible, and said it was not bad language, just a figure of speech. However, I did not entirely buy this. Although, I did think that some "curse" words were not as bad as others. I did not curse as a Christian, but yes, when I pulled away, I did curse, a sudden rush of emotion and feeling, and years of legalism, and in anger the words would come.
What is right is right. Cursing is wrong, Christian or not. Why would you want to change something that is right?
Yes, I've said a few "colorful metaphors" on here. But mostly, I have censored myself when it came to any really big time curse words. I have worked real hard not to come out with anything off color these days, but not because I thought a censor was in place........I have missed some goings on around here.......and I am now working in my own life to say an alternative word than a curse word when I get angry. This is easy really, I did it for a long time, so it's easy to fall back on.
In here, you don’t have a choice, but it is good that you are censoring yourself. It amazes me that many people don’t understand why cursing is wrong.
I am doing this because I have a four year old and one year old and I don't want them copying me. Plus, I don't feel right cursing anyway. It's just my own inner conviction.
Good.
Ah, anecdotal evidence! Sorry, I could not resist!!
Ah, you are paying attention. LOL
Seriously, there are some things that happen for which there is no other kind of evidence. Testimonial evidence is suspect at best, but it is the only one I have to give in this area. And I would not ask anyone to accept it as evidence for them. I can only say it is evidence for me and for me, in this area, is sufficient.
I am curious. When you say "Prayers answered" do you mean getting a "yes' "no" or "wait" answer? Or do you mean an actual positive event happening?
I mean a positive event.
What percentage of your prayers are answered with a positive event happening, ones that you have not initiated yourself, or had a hand in?
When I was a Christian, I had about 10% of my prayers answers with an event to prove it...............and something that I did not have a hand in at all. 20% of my answered prayers were questionable due to having a hand in it. 70% of my prayers were never answered.
I see where you are coming from. The paradigm you are working with is very common. I’m surprised that you even 10% of your prayers answered.
I could think of a scenario where I would get 0% of my prayers answered. If I prayed for things that were clearly not God’s will, I would get nothing. I could ask that I return to the age of 15. I could ask for levitation powers or seeing through walls. I have none of these ability, and the world God has set up for me, clearly shows He did not intend for me to have this wishes granted.
There must be congruence between what I pray for and what God wants. Don’t judge my answer just yet. Hold on for the rest of the explanation.
Now, as a non-believer, I have done a lot of "wishful thinking" or "wishful hoping".....just the sort of thing a lot of us do like "Gee, I wish I had that" or "I sure wish (fill in the blank) would happen".
About 40% of this wishing and hoping has come to pass....to actually happen, already, in the past seven months since I de-converted. 40% has come to pass by me doing something to iniate. 20% has not happened.
This sound logical. The things you used to pray for was stuff you wanted in your life to happen, right? Now that you are doing something about the things that you want (which you should have been doing all along), you are getting results.
We don’t need to pray to God for things we can get on our own, and we can’t expect God to bend the rules He has placed on us to get those things we can get on our own.
Things might slow down...even out, but so far, I'm getting better results than I did as a Christian. Even in the early days and weeks of being a Christian, I did not have these type of results.
Anyhow, these good results are not why I de-converted. I had no idea this would happen. It's a nice little bonus.
If you are taking responsibility for your results this is a good thing.
I had many Christian friends who wrestled over unanswered prayer. One friend I had was very dedicated to the church. She was very moral and upright. She served like crazy. She gave above the tithe. She did so much. Still, her prayers were never answered. She suffered in her life in many ways. I prayed and prayed for her...longing and hoping to see God bless her. She worked a very very hard job. She was single raising two teenage daughters. She had other troubles too. If anyone deserved help and relief, she did. I could only do so much to help.
After all these years, my friend still suffers, but she is sort of coping with it. She buries a lot of it inside. She pretends it's ok. She pretends that God has blessed her. I recently told her how my husband got a big promotion at work a couple of months ago. I know this upset her. I should be more careful what I say.
This paradigm is very different from what I have learned as a Christian. Praying for material things or for a better life has absolutely no effect to an individual.
Your friend does need to pray to get a better life. She can do that on her own. If she struggling financially, that can easily be fixed in time. God has set up specific rules for the accumulation of wealth. She just need to learn and apply these rules.
Anyhow, I know that many of my friends felt convinced that God had answered prayers, and were very comforted and excited about it. Sometimes, it is the comfort side of prayer that makes me think that it's ok. But the promise of God answering is not good, in my opinion. I have seen too many hurt, confused and beaten up people because of unanswered prayer.
They should be confused and hurt. That is the consequence of ineffective prayer.
It always seemed that if one prayer suddenly got answered, no matter how small, it made all the other unanswered prayers go dim for awhile. God was suddenly exclaimed to be a "prayer answering God".
Picking and choosing the hits only proves that the laws of probability are in place.
I watched Christians get sick and die.....while prayer went on and on for them. I saw Christians remain in Chronic illnesses despite praying for healing over and over. I saw new strip joints being opened and heard of heavy prostition in town, as well as drug problems, despite all the heavy praying done for this city.
God’s will and final decisions can’t be overturned.
The biggest and most prevalent testimonies of supposed answers to prayer that I heard was when people got up in church and said that because they paid tithes faithfully, God had blessed them back, and they had been given a bonus or raise at work.
This is as swallow as can be. The problem is that there isn’t an understanding of how God has set up the system. They don’t understand how the system works. And you are a testament that the way they do it does not work.
I had a problem with those testimonies, even as a Charismatic Christian. For one thing, my friend, who I mentioned above, worked very hard, paid above the tithe, and never got a bonus or benefits or insurance or anything.
Of course, because working hard has nothing to do with the accumulation of wealth. If they were interested in making money, they didn’t need to pray, they needed to study the principles of wealth building.
Her job paid well, but it was grueling work. She would be crushed when she heard these testimones. For another, I felt that those who got bonuses had to have done something good on the job to get them. I am assuming that a boss just does not hand out a bonus without a reason. A bonus or a raise is a reward for hard work.
The type of bonus a person gets for “hard work” are miniscule. If this is her preoccupation, she could work less hard and make much more money.
I can't imagine how many people felt God did not love them or felt that maybe they were doing something wrong since they were not getting a bonus or raise, even though they tithed faithfully too.
Anyhow, I have rambled a bit too much. I need to go. I was really wanting to know how many of your prayers are being answered and in what way.
Ok. I have to first show where I’m coming from.
(you probably know all this but I will explain it anyway)
The Bible teaches that God showed his love for us in that we did not choose Him but he chose us.
Now, this choosing business means something. What did he chooses for? And this were the whole Christian life makes sense. As I said before, the central part of Christian life is service, so God has chosen us for service.
So, I believe we were put here on earth for a purpose, a mission. Each one of us has a mission. Of course, this mission will have many visions, many specifics goals and projects to accomplish, and maybe the mission will change according to time and place.
God gave us specific talents and skills. These give as evidence of our mission.
Ok. So God shows us our purpose in life, we then pursue goals or vision God puts before us. The prayers that God answers are in relation to these goals. The miracles and extraordinary feats we see come from watching how His will comes to pass. (none of the I want I corvette kind of prayers)
Let me show you where I see God. I heard and saw one of Mel Gibson’s interview. He claimed he was compelled by God to make the movie.
Everyone around told him not to do the movie. No studio would carry (distribute) his film. No one would give him financing. He has to put all the money himself.
I’m sure now that the movie is grossing more the $200 million in weeks, most everyone finds it logical that it would.
I don’t. I see the hand of God in it. I see Gibson’s prayers answered.
In my life, I see this all the time. Ministry after ministry defy the odds and spectacular things occur. People go into projects the calling of God and see the power of God in such projects.
If you were every with Christians that had visions (I don’t mean mirages or apparitions) of God for work in service, you could see prayers answered.
I’m sad that the church and congregation you speak of, you mention nothing of this. You mention a lot of behavioral codes and proselytizing, but you don’t mention service work. And I don’t mean church activities like the choir or ministries of social building amongst church members. I mean groups of people organizing projects of service.
