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Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Lance, I went through Sparks lengthy explanation and I have some comments. He starts off by claiming how these witnesses were not "ordinary" and were "expert" witnesses. Yet, he admits that errors were made and he chose only to accept those observations that fit his scenario.

As I previously stated, he is comparison of seeing the object from 90 miles altitude is a false comparison the instant he pointed towards the ISS observations. The ISS is only visible because it reflects the sun's light against a dark background. Stating a dark object can be visible from 90 miles altitude is incorrect unless it reflected light. None of the witnesses stated this. In fact, the object receding away in the direction of the sun probably would have reflected sunlight at one point and flared up the way airplanes do against the setting sun. They did not observe this effect or report it.

Then we have Sparks talking about magnetic headings. Where does it state they flew west on a magnetic heading? Why would the pilot use a magnetic bearing? Has that been established anywhere but Sparks' mind?

He then accuses everyone of "cherry picking" from the reports but it is actually he who is doing this to reach his preconceived conclusion. He then goes off about how Lincoln LaPaz (doesn't he have any other meteor experts to work with, it is almost as if his entire knowledge is based on UFOs) was able to weed out the bad data. The problem with this argument is he is comparing apples to oranges. La Paz would have dozens of witness reports from various locations to work with so he could weed out the inaccurate ones. In this case, we have five observations. One from an indenpendent site and four from the same location, where the witnesses can't even get the location of the plane right and give varied directions of observations. He cherry picks the one observation that fits his predetermined conclusion.

Then Sparks states he has interviewed one of the aircrew and talked to the other via a second party. Using fifty year old memories is a dicey proposition. This could be doubly troublesome if Sparks' leads the witness. He also states he is going to write a book length article on it. Is it going to be as accurate as his RB-47 analysis, which I demonstrated to have made way too many false assumptions and inaccurate conclusions? This also sounds like his Trindade Research project from almost ten years ago, which failed to produce one iota of revelation or published data, He has great promises with very little in the way of results.

Finally, there is the claim made by Sparks and his misuse of the term FACT. FACTS are things that are established and can not be denied. It is a FACT that they reported these things and probably saw something unusual. However, what estimates and masurements they made can not be consider FACTUAL. They are estimates and are subject to error that can not be quantified.

One of his FACTS has to do with the resolution of the human eye and how he can make his case for what was presented. It is an inaccurate argument. Just because one can resolve things an arc minute across does not mean that one can resolve details. It would appear not much larger than a big dot to the naked eye and no details would be seen. The comparisons the crew made of the UNKNOWN (emphasis on this since it was unknown size and distance) to an aircraft at some distance (which is not stated) is just not an accurate way to measure angular size. The best anyone can conclude from all of this (as stated several times in this forum) is that what they saw was nothing more than a thin black line with the naked eye. All Johnson could add was that it was sort of disc-shaped from his observations with binoculars.

Kimball continues to disappoint me. Despite his efforts to portray himself as this great thinker, it appears he allows others to do his thinking for him on the UFO subject. Any knowledge on the case comes directly from what Sparks tells him to think and not any independent assessment by himself.
 
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Since you agree there is no credible evidence for the existence of visiting alien spaceships, what is the point of this idiotic thread?
What I'm left wondering is if there is no evidence for alien craft why do we need a acronym for them that effectively leaves us without an acronym for something we have in abundance; Unidentified Flying Objects.

Can anyone think of a good acronym for those that's not already in use?
 
Wrong. The development of the word UFO

<snip>


It's not a word. It's an acronym.

The letters stand for 'Unidentified Flying Object'

You're never going to change this.


It has since evolved into the topic of ufology, a subject many people find very interesting, enjoyable and educational.


This makes even less sense than your usual rants.

Ufology is simply a made up term for the pseudoscience of pretending that a few space cadets who believe in Omgaliens have evidence to back up their silly fantasies.


For all intents and purposes this entire thread is a discussion in ufology and all the constructive skepticism that has been offered is as much a part of ufology as it is skepticism.


Scepticism and ufology are both a part of this discussion in the same way that the Union and the Confederates were part of the American Civil War.

I'm sure you'd like to think that you're here in partnership with sceptics of the JREF Forum and I have little doubt that your entire purpose for being here from the outset was to leverage extra credibility for yourself and your website from that perceived association. But it's failed, ufology. You're busted.

Do you have any idea how little credibility you have here?


As for the "con artists" comment. There have been plenty of con-artists in the sciences too, particularly in medicine, yet you don't see me attacking science and medicine simply because it has been the victim of such con-artists. That would not be fair.


No, it would be completely off topic. Try it if you don't believe me and see what happens.


Neither is it fair to attack ufology because it has been the victim of con-artists.


Ufology, at least as it has been presented here, is the product of con artists ( floogists ) and will continue to be attacked on that basis.
 
Since you agree there is no credible evidence for the existence of visiting alien spaceships, what is the point of this idiotic thread?


Well R.A.F. I'll grant you that one. There are times I truly wonder that myself. However I have had some really constructive input from Astro. And sometimes someone new will come along, and I think it's just as important for the JREF to have someone willing and able to present a pro-UFO position as it is the reverse. Much of the thread focuses on debate and without my input, that method of exploring the issue would surely grind to a halt. More personally, it helps me to see the other points of view that I don't get when I'm constantly immersed in an accepting environment. It challenges me to seek reasonable counterpoints ... and even the hostility has been somewhat beneficial in helping me to learn how to deal with the frustration, disappointment and anger it has sometimes evoked. In this spirit I continue to participate in the hope that it will ultimately balance out to be more positive than negative.
 
... It challenges me to seek reasonable counterpoints ...
How's that search coming along, have you found any yet?

Be sure to present them as soon as you do because these ones you're using at the moment don't fit the bill.
 
Tim and all,

Many thanks for the replies.

If you notice in the thread I mentioned, it never seemed that I could get anyone to understand that there is simply no way to triangulate the object from the data provided.

Simply put, (even accepting the Johnson location and vector as gospel, which i was willing to do) we have no actual location for (and needed vector from) the plane. I tried mightily but I never could get any of the mostly believer audience there to understand this simple point.

But those guys are morons mostly. Was the point clear to you guys here from reading the evidence?

Tim, I saw a recent interview with Kimball in which he spoke about RB-47. He regurgitated all of the discredited "facts" from his film but never even acknowledged that there was any evidence against it. This is well after he supposedly read your historically important report.

He is the worst kind of poseur, worse even than his buffoonish uncle, Stanton Friedman.

Best,

Lance
 
So far as I know, there is no verifiable material scientific evidence that is sufficient enough to prove alien craft have visited planet Earth.


And yet you can't work out why people are falling about laughing at your continued use of the UFO ( alien craft ) construct.

You don't even realise that the redundant spacing in your parentheses has becomie a running gag for the rest of us either, do you?

Tragic.


If this changes I'l be sure to let you know.


If the observational and investigative skills you've displayed here are anything to go by it seems far more likely that you'll hear the news from us, not the other way around.


In the meantime, this is a discussion thread and words are what we mostly use here, so if we need to make ourselves clearer by using definitions and references, then that does not constitute a "word game".


The word game, ufology, is the one that you play by using a language all your own and pretending that it can be used to convey meaning.


It is conveying a thought, experience or idea.


Talking rabbits, MIB, Volksblimps, Non-existant aircraft laying down smokescreens over Southern California - quite frankly you'd be better off keeping these things to yourself altogether, let alone trying to communicate them in an ersatz language.
 
It's not a word. It's an acronym.


Acronyms are words:

ac·ro·nym [ákr?nim] (plural ac·ro·nyms) noun

word formed from initials: a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words, for example, “NATO,” from the initial letters of “North Atlantic Treaty Organization”

Encarta World English Disctionary

========

Plus the word UFO ( or ufo ) was made into a distinct word by Ruppelt as with a distinct pronounciation "yoo-foe".

Here are a couple of relevant quotes:

Ruppelt: "UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words " flying saucers."


Ruppelt: "Officially the military uses the term "flying saucer" on only two occasions. First in an explanatory sense, as when briefing people who are unacquainted with the term "UFO": "UFO -- you know -- flying saucers. " ... And second in a derogatory sense, for purposes of ridicule, as when it is observed, "He says he saw a flying saucer." =================

Above we see the person actually responsible for creating the word UFO explaining to us how it means the same thing as "flying saucer"
 
"UFO -- you know -- flying saucers.[/hilite] " ... And second in a derogatory sense, for purposes of ridicule, as when it is observed, "He says he saw a flying saucer."

What acronym can we use for something that is Unidentified, appears to be Flying and appears to be an Object?
 
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Since you agree there is no credible evidence for the existence of visiting alien spaceships, what is the point of this idiotic thread?


Actually the thread itself isn't completely useless. There's a lot to be learned about how UFO reports should be investigated.

It's just a damned shame that ufology ( the poster ) keeps derailing it with his daft theories, trolling with his gobbledygook redefinitions and interupting the grown-ups with his childish stories.
 
<snip>

And sometimes someone new will come along, and I think it's just as important for the JREF to have someone willing and able to present a pro-UFO position as it is the reverse.


Please provide a list of all the anti-UFO posters you have encountered here.


Note: I'm fairly sure you''ll be wanting to use your made-up definition of UFOs but in this, the real world, it won't count.


Much of the thread focuses on debate and without my input, that method of exploring the issue would surely grind to a halt.




More personally, it helps me to see the other points of view that I don't get when I'm constantly immersed in an accepting environment.


Unfortunately all you do is see them, reject them and then go back to the Floogyverse, none the wiser for having glimpsed the truth.


It challenges me to seek reasonable counterpoints ...


I'd like to think that one day you'll actually rise to this challenge and find one, but I won't be holding my breath.


. . . and even the hostility has been somewhat beneficial in helping me to learn how to deal with the frustration, disappointment and anger it has sometimes evoked.

is no way to go through life, son.


In this spirit I continue to participate in the hope that it will ultimately balance out to be more positive than negative.


Accroche-toi à ton rêve.
 
So far as I know, there is no verifiable material scientific evidence that is sufficient enough to prove alien craft have visited planet Earth.


Good, you have rescinded your claim that some UFOs are alien craft. It took a long time, but that's progress toward taking a skeptical stand. Next, maybe you'll start to get the hang of critical thinking and you can dispense with the persistent dishonesty altogether. :)

If this changes I'l be sure to let you know.


If this changes, you won't have to let us know. It will be quite big news. And you'll be out of business. Nobody will want to buy books from the 'net pseudoscience pedlars anymore if actual real aliens are discovered. And another thing is pretty certain, nobody who considers him/herself a "ufologist" will be called to help do any research or analyze any evidence, because none of them have shown any ability to actually do those things.

In the meantime, this is a discussion thread and words are what we mostly use here, so if we need to make ourselves clearer by using definitions and references, then that does not constitute a "word game". It is conveying a thought, experience or idea.


When you persist in redefining words which have perfectly good meanings as-is, when you refuse to use the other perfectly good words that already mean what you want to communicate, then yes, you are playing word games. And you are absolutely not making yourself clearer. It's a juvenile way to make an argument, or maybe a cowardly way to avoid making one. Either way, it is not any sort of constructive contribution.
 
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The Culinary Institute of America would definitely be interested in frying sauciers.


FlyingSaucier.jpg
 

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