Your thoughts on atheism...
- Thread starter canadarocks
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No need to, have already established that man is a creature of belief. You know, where does the belief of this real world go when we die? Certainly, according to you, we are no longer capable of believing that we were here, right? Anyway, so much for the idea of having the whole thing etched in concrete, because it isn't any more concrete than the notion of God ... when we die that is.Mercutio said:
So really, what it all boils down to is what we believe will happen after we die.And yet what is a religion, except a certain set of precepts or beliefs? Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it? So, to insist that Atheism, in its lack of belief, is not religious in any way whatsoever, is bogus. Because we have to believe in something.Mercutio said:
Having beliefs is not the same thing as having a set of beliefs. Again I ask you, please list the set of beliefs that unites atheists such as myself. You must know more about it than I do, because I am in ignorance of any such set of beliefs.
Enlighten me.
Enlighten me.
epepke
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canadarocks said:
This question is at the root of some of the longest flame wars in the history of digital electronic communication.
Basically, atheism (or theism) is a statement of belief, and agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. Many combinations are possible. For example, many Catholic priests are theists and also agnostics. They will say they don't claim to know that God exists but take it on faith.
Atheism is usually subdivided into strong and weak varieties. In the strong variety, there is a belief that there is no God. In the weak variety, there is simply an absence of a belief that there is a god. Most dictionaries allow for both.
Agnosticism is also usually subdivided into strong and weak varieties. The strong variety holds that the existence of God cannot be known by living people, even in principle. The weak variety simply holds that the speaker lacks knowledge. The term was invented by Huxley, and at times he seems to use the strong definition, at times the weak definition.
It is certainly possible for both strong and weak atheists also to be strong or weak agnostics, though the weak-weak combination is the most likely. However, culturally, a lot of agnostics seem to like to go around saying that they're more rational than atheists. So it isn't clear that agnostics recognize the possibility of overlap. Atheists would generally be fine with agnosticism except for the fact that it seems that this behavior of agnostics is little more than an attempt to dissociate themselves from atheists.
For a while, somebody came up with the term "bright" as an umbrella term, and Randi and a few other people seemed to like it. A lot more didn't like it, so it seems to have fallen out of fashion. There is another umbrella term, "freethinker," which would seem to apply to Universalists as well and dates from the German Freethinker community in Texas (which was, of course, pretty much slaughtered by the "turn the other cheek" folks; extended story on request or do a Google search). These, however, are autonyms used within the community, and it's not the kind of thing that you're likely to be asked during an interview.
Are you saying that you don't believe the real world is all that we have? That certainly sounds like a set of beliefs if you ask me. And, since when is Science capable of defining anything with 100% accuracy? Why is the theory of evolution still a theory? Why will it always remain a theory?Mercutio said:
I did not ask for a set of questions, I asked for a set of beliefs.Iacchus said:Are you saying that you don't believe the real world is all that we have? That certainly sounds like a set of beliefs if you ask me. And, since when is Science capable of defining anything with 100% accuracy? Why is the theory of evolution still a theory? Why will it always remain a theory?
You said earlier that Buddhists were atheists--Buddhists have a set of beliefs. I am not a Buddhist. What are the set of beliefs which you are saying unites atheists? Your ignorance of science is not the issue; the issue is, you have claimed that atheism is a belief system. I am simply asking you to back up your allegation, or barring that, to admit you have no clue about this.
Are you saying that atheists all believe in science?Iacchus said:Don't tell me you don't believe in Science? That in fact Science is what makes the whole world go round. Hey, ever get the sensation that you just stepped in something kind of gooey and smelly?
I asked for statements, not questions--I honestly can't tell if you are claiming that all atheists believe in science. Or was it your intent to obfuscate?
Lord Emsworth
Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves
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Iacchus said:Don't tell me you don't believe in Science? That in fact Science is what makes the whole world go round. Hey, ever get the sensation that you just stepped in something kind of gooey and smelly?
Yes, but "belief" in science is not a defining property of Atheism. (1) Theists and Deists can do so too and (2) you can be an Atheist and not "believe in Science".
Kopji
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Agnostic is a socially acceptable word for atheist?
***Kopji's Godless Calculator***
My experience and study do not lead me to know for sure, but based on the evidence so far I believe there is a God.
-Theist
I have felt the power of God in my life and I know there is a God. I wish you could know this feeling too.
-Theist
My experience and study do not lead me to know absolutely, but based on the evidence so far there's only a tiny infinitesimal chance of there being a God. A chance like apples suddenly falling up instead of down.
-Atheist
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. I continue to look for answers.
-Agnostic
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. I choose to believe in God, let go of the search and just live.
-Theist Light
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. Time to let go of the search and just live.
-Atheist Light
I want there to be a God, but there's not. I participate in religion because I think that belief has value to society. But not because I actually believe.
-Closet Atheist or Evil Theist
I wanted there to be a God, but thankfully there's not. I participate in religion for control or power, not because I actually believe.
-Atheist as described on religious websites.
***Kopji's Godless Calculator***
My experience and study do not lead me to know for sure, but based on the evidence so far I believe there is a God.
-Theist
I have felt the power of God in my life and I know there is a God. I wish you could know this feeling too.
-Theist
My experience and study do not lead me to know absolutely, but based on the evidence so far there's only a tiny infinitesimal chance of there being a God. A chance like apples suddenly falling up instead of down.
-Atheist
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. I continue to look for answers.
-Agnostic
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. I choose to believe in God, let go of the search and just live.
-Theist Light
I can study, experiment, and wonder forever, but the final answer will always lie beyond my grasp. Time to let go of the search and just live.
-Atheist Light
I want there to be a God, but there's not. I participate in religion because I think that belief has value to society. But not because I actually believe.
-Closet Atheist or Evil Theist
I wanted there to be a God, but thankfully there's not. I participate in religion for control or power, not because I actually believe.
-Atheist as described on religious websites.
On first thought I would say yes, however, that does not mean there are no other considerations. Also, I think if Atheists were even to approach the worship of something, it would have to be Reason. So, what's wrong with that? And who was this nutcase (must be if all Atheists are irreligious) that wanted to start up the Church of Critical Thinking?Mercutio said:
*sigh* Once again, then...please give us your list of beliefs that atheists hold. (Note also, that Lord Emsworth has already called into question your initial "yes".) What are these "other considerations"?Iacchus said:
You have had many chances now. I am concluding that you spoke out of ignorance. But go ahead, prove me wrong.
Iacchus said:
As usual, I'm coming in late on things, and I imagine there's some prior history here, but if you could humor my curiosity Iacchus, why do we have to believe in something?
Edited to add:
I know it's become a cliche' now, but as it hasn't been used in this thread yet, please let me be the first to say...
If atheism is a religion, then baldness is a hair color.
And what is an agnostic then, besides somebody who's sitting on the fence ... of belief? ... which, could go either way? In which case it's still a matter of belief no matter how you look at it. And yes, Atheists do have a tendency to behave differently than Theists which, is all contingent upon what they believe.Lord Emsworth said: