Your thoughts on atheism...

[Mercutio]

Iacchus, are you trying to demonstrate that ignorance is a form of knowledge? It's not working...

 

[Iacchus]

As usual, I'm coming in late on things, and I imagine there's some prior history here, but if you could humor my curiosity Iacchus, why do we have to believe in something?

Edited to add:

I know it's become a cliche' now, but as it hasn't been used in this thread yet, please let me be the first to say...

If atheism is a religion, then baldness is a hair color.

So, does that make me bald with respect to my lack of belief in purple kangaroos? I suppose it would. However, we must be able to maintain a full set of hair over something, right? And this would be our set of beliefs (or philosophy) by which we determine how we govern our lives. Or, am I to believe that Atheists have no way of determining which way is up and down in this world? In fact why even call yourselves Atheists if it doesn't mean anything?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

And what is an agnostic then, besides somebody who's sitting on the fence ... of belief? ... which, could go either way? In which case it's still a matter of belief no matter how you look at it. And yes, Atheists do have a tendency to behave differently than Theists which, is all contingent upon what they believe.

In fact I would say that everybody behaves differently from everybody else - strictly speaking. More loosely speaking, you get Deists and Theists who have opinions that are almost indistinguishable from what you would expect from a "stereotypical Atheist" (except of course in one crucial matter).

And furthermore you still have not demonstrated that
• "belief in Science" is what distinguishes Atheism from Theism and Deism
• there is one thing that Atheists believe in (let alone a set of beliefs) that distinguishes them from Theists and Deists.

Oh, and Agnostics hold that knowledge of God is impossible.

 

[Iacchus]

In fact I would say that everybody behaves differently from everybody else - strictly speaking. More loosely speaking, you get Deists and Theists who have opinions that are almost indistinguishable from what you would expect from a "stereotypical Atheist" (except of course in one crucial matter).

And yet the key here is what determines what we do if, not from the standpoint of what we believe?

And furthermore you still have not demonstrated that
• "belief in Science" is what distinguishes Atheism from Theism and Deism
• there is one thing that Atheists believe in (let alone a set of beliefs) that distinguishes them from Theists and Deists.

Anybody can believe in Science, just that Atheists tend to adhere to it more than others, in the absolute sense that is.

Oh, and Agnostics hold that knowledge of God is impossible.

And yet they still insist on believing in the possibility of God. Why?

 

[gnome]

So, does that make me bald with respect to my lack of belief in purple kangaroos? I suppose it would. However, we must be able to maintain a full set of hair over something, right? And this would be our set of beliefs (or philosophy) by which we determine how we govern our lives. Or, am I to believe that Atheists have no way of determining which way is up and down in this world? In fact why even call yourselves Atheists if it doesn't mean anything?

I believe that my keyboard is white. Does that mean that I worship the whiteness of my keyboard? I have a set of beliefs that I call progressive liberalism. Does that mean that I worship liberalism? I believe that science is a useful endeavor that helps us understand the world. Does that mean I worship it? When was the last time I prayed to "Science" or promised my eternal soul to "Science"?

To put all beliefs under the name "religion" is to make it so generic as to be meaningless. Meanwhile, I'm sure most religions would deny being in any way a generic state of belief.

 

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, does that make me bald with respect to my lack of belief in purple kangaroos?

Yes, I suppose so. But would that make you an Afucusmacropeismist?

I suppose it would. However, we must be able to maintain a full set of hair over something, right?

I can tell you from personal experience, that this is not necessarily so.

And this would be our set of beliefs (or philosophy) by which we determine how we govern our lives.

So would you allow then that there is a difference between a set of beliefs and and a personal philosophy?

Or, am I to believe that Atheists have no way of determining which way is up and down in this world? In fact why even call yourselves Atheists if it doesn't mean anything?

You are creating compound false dilemmas and tautologies here. You are suggesting first that everyone must have a set of beliefs or a philosophy that governs their lives, because if you don't you cannot determine which way is up and down. And if you cannot determine up and down, this suggests that your set of beliefs or philosophy doesn't mean anything.

An atheist is someone who is without a belief in a god. Period. It means nothing more than that. Atheism does not come with a predetermined set of beliefs or a philosophy. There are, in fact, at least as many different types of atheists as there are theists. It is a null position. It does not require a knowledge of science much less a belief in it.

Why must everyone believe in something?



edited for spelling

 

[Lord Emsworth]

And yet the key here is what determines what we do if, not from the standpoint of what we believe?

So a person is characterized by a set of beliefs?

Anybody can believe in Science, just that Atheists tend to adhere to it more than others, in the absolute sense that is.

"In the absolute sense"?? What if science is about finding out more about God's creation?

And yet they still insist on believing in the possibility of God. Why?

Do they? And if so, why not?

 

[Iacchus]

I have a set of beliefs that I call progressive liberalism. Does that mean that I worship liberalism?

Do you revere what this means or, do you practice it for any particular reason in general? If, in fact it involves ritual, and a specific set of beliefs, I would suggest it's awfully close to smacking of religion.

 

[Iacchus]

"In the absolute sense"?? What if science is about finding out more about God's creation?

And what if it is? That only reiterates what I have to say even more?

 

[Iacchus]

So, what was the purpose of the title of this thread? To establish what Atheists believe, or what?

 

[Iacchus]

Why must everyone believe in something?

And when you die, what then? What will have happened to this reality that you believed in while you were still here? It certainly puts your lack of belief on equal grounds with the possibility that God does exist now doesn't it? (at least at this point). And let's say that there was an afterlife. What options would Atheists have to believe then?

 

[Z]

And when you die, what then? What will have happened to this reality that you believed in while you were still here?

When you die, that's it, you're dead. No further experiences, no further belief - nothing to continue on. Just empty oblivion.

Icky-us, stop smoking hash with Lucianarchy and get a life - and move your broke-a&& out of yo' mama's apartment!

 

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Iacchus
And when you die, what then?

dunno

What will have happened to this reality that you believed in while you were still here?

Loaded question. I do not "believe" in this reality. I assume it will still be here after my death, but I can't prove anything.

It certainlys put your lack of belief on equal grounds with the genuine possibility that God does exist now doesn't it? (at least at this point).

???? What puts my lack of belief on equal grounds with the possibility that god exists? You've completely lost me here.

And let's say that there was an afterlife. What options would Atheists have to believe then?

Mmmm, nope. I'm just getting clicking sounds. Can you rephrase this?

Why must everyone believe in something?

 

[Iacchus]

When you die, that's it, you're dead. No further experiences, no further belief - nothing to continue on. Just empty oblivion.

Row row row your boat, gently down the stream ...

 

[American]

And when you die, what then? What will have happened to this reality that you believed in while you were still here? It certainly puts your lack of belief on equal grounds with the possibility that God does exist now doesn't it? (at least at this point). And let's say that there was an afterlife. What options would Atheists have to believe then?

I imagine it's something like before you were ever born. In an old thread, we discussed how everything is explained by the 4 (or so) forces, and the current state of physics and cosmology is to unite them under a singular theory. (Offhand, I believe the forces are gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, and the electric force. Or something like that.)

ANYWAY.

Many seek satisfaction in explaining everything, whether by seperate theories or a future single explanation..... to get to the point that I believe: nothing explains existence. And to say "it just is" seems equally disturbing.

My own personal feeling is that nothing should exist, by any right. Nothing- no vacuum, no space (empty or otherwise), no matter, energy, time, fabric, particles, Platonic ideals, no God, no something, no anything. (Get the idea?)

Sometimes I will blank out in a frightful stare just thinking about this. It's the same feeling I got when I was about 12, and I was occasionally struck with a brief feeling of depression - an awareness - that childhood slips away, and one must face adulthood without the many lies that parents use to protect children. I made a conscious effort to shake it off and forget those epiphanies by filling my life with videogames. But inevitably, it overwhelms you like a cancer, and one succumbs to a new reality.

Think about it-- nothing should exist. Nothing!

 

[canadarocks]

So, what was the purpose of the title of this thread? To establish what Atheists believe, or what?

Although you can look at the top of the thread...

"I was listening to a radio program in Philadephia that featured Randi (There's an archive link to the show in the "Forum Community" under the thread of "Randi vs Rodney..") and hear the commentator ask Randi if he was an atheist. Randi's response was something like "There are two types of atheists; One who says there is no god, and one who says there is no evidence for god. (He was the latter type). I was wondering what the difference between the second type of atheist and an agnostic (As I think of agnostics as people who don't know if there is a god). Maybe my understanding is not correct and I need to learn more about the distinctions."

I didn't ask for an establishment of what atheists believe. I wanted to know more about the distinctions between an atheist and an agnostic based on what I heard Randi say. Several people gave me some good ideas to think about. Your comments, however, I found less than helpful (although I do like reading the on-going responses and how questions asked by others go unanswered [must get frustrating]).

Cheers

 

[Iacchus]

Although you can look at the top of the thread...

"I was listening to a radio program in Philadephia that featured Randi (There's an archive link to the show in the "Forum Community" under the thread of "Randi vs Rodney..") and hear the commentator ask Randi if he was an atheist. Randi's response was something like "There are two types of atheists; One who says there is no god, and one who says there is no evidence for god. (He was the latter type). I was wondering what the difference between the second type of atheist and an agnostic (As I think of agnostics as people who don't know if there is a god). Maybe my understanding is not correct and I need to learn more about the distinctions."

I didn't ask for an establishment of what atheists believe. I wanted to know more about the distinctions between an atheist and an agnostic based on what I heard Randi say. Several people gave me some good ideas to think about. Your comments, however, I found less than helpful (although I do like reading the on-going responses and how questions asked by others go unanswered [must get frustrating]).

Cheers

Yeah, you're right. Albeit I did read the original post (honest), I guess I just got carried away. Sorry.

Perhaps I should start a new thread? How about Life is Just an Illusion?

 

[Iacchus]

Think about it-- nothing should exist. Nothing!

I agree, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. However, I will refrain from posting on this thread (albeit it's probably too late), as I've started a new thread called, Life is Just an Illusion?

Please feel free to post over there. Thanks!

 

[Atlas]

I imagine it's something like before you were ever born. In an old thread, we discussed how everything is explained by the 4 (or so) forces, and the current state of physics and cosmology is to unite them under a singular theory. (Offhand, I believe the forces are gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, and the electric force. Or something like that.)

ANYWAY.

Many seek satisfaction in explaining everything, whether by seperate theories or a future single explanation..... to get to the point that I believe: nothing explains existence. And to say "it just is" seems equally disturbing.

My own personal feeling is that nothing should exist, by any right. Nothing- no vacuum, no space (empty or otherwise), no matter, energy, time, fabric, particles, Platonic ideals, no God, no something, no anything. (Get the idea?)

Sometimes I will blank out in a frightful stare just thinking about this. It's the same feeling I got when I was about 12, and I was occasionally struck with a brief feeling of depression - an awareness - that childhood slips away, and one must face adulthood without the many lies that parents use to protect children. I made a conscious effort to shake it off and forget those epiphanies by filling my life with videogames. But inevitably, it overwhelms you like a cancer, and one succumbs to a new reality.

Think about it-- nothing should exist. Nothing!

One thing I took from Christianity is that a doorway to the spiritual experience is in the "death of self" experience. It's kind of a misnomer and I think you actually stumble through the doorway and then upon returning you realize that in your "One with everything" experience there was no self as there is in the normal sense.

That, of course, is a awesome feeling. But there are several spiritual experiences that can be described after the fact as a "death of self" phenomonon.

American you reminded me of the one I call "The Abyss". It is a feeling... an experience... of desolation - so complete not even despair exists in it. It is the living experience of being emptied, the life drained away. It is often brought on by the loss of one close. It is the nothing of which you speak.

It is a horrible experience. It is deeply spiritual. I use that term in the sense of the range of experiences of the human spirit. But it is as you describe a turn of yin and yang. Tomorrow might hold extreme abundance.

I don't have your faith in God. For me, God is a feeling, well several. The Nothing that you describe - it does exist, you seem to have felt it intellectually, but a much more profound understanding awaits. Maybe you have been torn up by it, like falling into a black hole, it really is one of those God feelings that people have in their life. And things are new and different when you emerge on the other side of the nothingness.

I am not like Iacchus, I believe these experiences are given to us here. But they are so powerful they take on the personality of God or the Devil.

Anyway, put that aside. There is another Nothing from ancient days. The Abyss or Chaos was the Nothing from which the first gods were born. The Earth and Sky and Light - were all pulled from the Abyss. So say the ancients - you may have the right idea but you are a few thousand years late.

 

[Ratman_tf]

Asked and answered, Ratman...

Yah. *Shrug*