Would a wall stop illegal immigrants?

nightwind said:
Sure a double fence with sensors like they have in prisons work well. If you stuck in stiff fines for the folks who hire illegals, it would work even better and might not even be needed.
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Actually, they were showing the fence being built on the news tonight and it was a double fence with motion sensors, and a road between the fences for border patrol vehicles.

And Tricky, you are deluded if you think there is no harm in illegal immigration. I've been in the construction business for over 20 years, and wages are shrinking due to the influx of cheap labor which doesn't pay income taxes, SS taxes, workmans comp, (but I'm sure you don't mind paying medical bills for illegals who get hurt on the job) etc etc. It's bad enough that at the age of 40 I'm seeking a new line of work, because there is no future in this one. And it's not only Mexicans btw, around here they're just as likely to be from Russia, Poland, Croatia, or other eastern European country. And it's not greedy contractors driving this - it's customers who get several estimates and pick the lowest one without consideration for any other factor. Eventually, you're forced to hire illegals yourself or get out of the business altogether. Profit margins in this industry are damn thin as it is, it really isn't worth it for me any more. Enjoy the remodeled kitchen your illegal workers installed cheaply, but don't be surprised if years later you found out they took many a shortcut on materials and methods.
 
Gurdur said:
Or to point out the maths: unless the USA does something incredibly stupid, while Mexico gets incredibly smart, living standards would always be higher in the USA than in Mexico for the very simple reason that the USA has far more natural resources per capita of population than does Mexico.
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Nonsense, if that were true Japan would be far worse off than Mexico. Mexico's problems are self-inflicted.
 
WildCat said:
And it's not greedy contractors driving this - it's customers who get several estimates and pick the lowest one without consideration for any other factor.
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Don't lay it on the consumer. What are they supposed to do?
 
WildCat said:
And Tricky, you are deluded if you think there is no harm in illegal immigration. I've been in the construction business for over 20 years, and wages are shrinking due to the influx of cheap labor which doesn't pay income taxes, SS taxes, workmans comp, (but I'm sure you don't mind paying medical bills for illegals who get hurt on the job) etc etc. It's bad enough that at the age of 40 I'm seeking a new line of work, because there is no future in this one. And it's not only Mexicans btw, around here they're just as likely to be from Russia, Poland, Croatia, or other eastern European country. And it's not greedy contractors driving this - it's customers who get several estimates and pick the lowest one without consideration for any other factor. Eventually, you're forced to hire illegals yourself or get out of the business altogether. Profit margins in this industry are damn thin as it is, it really isn't worth it for me any more. Enjoy the remodeled kitchen your illegal workers installed cheaply, but don't be surprised if years later you found out they took many a shortcut on materials and methods.
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Wildcat, I am very sorry that your business has been hurt by illegals. I didn't mean that they cause no damage at all, just that it is not wrecking the country, based on what I'm seeing of our national economic condition.

Believe me, working in the oil biz, I'm very familiar with situations when business is bad and people are being laid off, nobody cares. I hope you find a resolution that works.

But IF they took out that option of hiring illegals, you'd do all right, correct? That's why it seems that people like you would be much more eager to stop illegal hiring than they would illegal working. I'm guessing you really do feel this way, but all I hear from the media is how people want to stop them crossing the border, not how they want to punish business owners.

But if you could hire cheap labor legally for the real grunt work, would you do it? Why or why not?
 
Tricky said:
But if you could hire cheap labor legally for the real grunt work, would you do it? Why or why not?
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You cannot hire cheap labor legally - because once it's legal it's no longer cheap. Take the hourly wage and double (actually more than double) it - that's the added costs associated with legal labor. That's for SS, FICA, insurance, workman's comp, etc etc.
 
WildCat said:
You cannot hire cheap labor legally - because once it's legal it's no longer cheap. Take the hourly wage and double (actually more than double) it - that's the added costs associated with legal labor. That's for SS, FICA, insurance, workman's comp, etc etc.
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I'm sure that's true. But I'm also guessing that "guest workers" would either not have all of these, or have limited versions of these, plus a lower (if any) minimum wage. Still, it's a hypothetical question. If you could get cheap foreign labor, would you, or would you bite the bullet and continue only to hire US citizens with all of their financial baggage?
 
WildCat said:
You cannot hire cheap labor legally - because once it's legal it's no longer cheap. Take the hourly wage and double (actually more than double) it - that's the added costs associated with legal labor. That's for SS, FICA, insurance, workman's comp, etc etc.
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I hear the same from licensed contractors here. Those costs are real and are not covered by the off the book local who is collecting unemployment and going down to the lot provided by the Town of Huntington to pick up ""guest workers" for $50 a day to do the work not wanted by the other locals. And then someone gets hurt working at your house. That's a clusterfrak. They go to the emergency ward and who pays? Your house insurance, maybe.
And does anyone collect payroll taxes here?
Maybe we ought to institute the CCC again. Draft all these young punks in their BMWs and Hummers to mow our lawns and clean our pools, just like the old days.
 
From an outsider's perspective, the idea of a fence is completely ridiculous. In fact when I first heard about it I thought someone was pulling my leg.
 
Earthborn said:
Really? I challenge you to climb over a 3000 millimeter wall. I think you might find it quite challenging.
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(...lousy stupid metric system...)

Okay, you're right; shoulda realized it was simple math: 1000 mm = 1 meter = about one yard = 3 feet, so 3000 mm = about 9 feet, give or take... Don't know where my brain was hiding. :boxedin:
 
Tricky said:
Whats up, Darth? {Ref = China and Mexico}
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Tricky:

For you and ID, and anyone else interested.

Fishman, in China, Inc, reported that between 2001 and 2003, Mexico lost 218,000 manufacturing jobs (low cost labor jobs in direct competitions with China). 500 of about 3,700 "export only" maquiladoro plants closed. Where do you think the labor went? North. In Chicago, about 20% of facory jobs is manned by Mexicans.

There is a Sony plant in Nuevo Laredo where (I recently discovered) I sent my son's PSP last year to get repaired. A few years prior, Sony had "threatened to move to China" if workers didn't grant concessions.

Result? Weekly salaries dropped from about $70 per week to about $52 per week.

On average, a Mexican factory worker earned, three years ago, about four times what a Chinese worker did ( I hear that has changed a bit, but don't have a cite) but about a seventh of what an American worker did. (Fishman's ratios.) In 2002-2003, Mexico lost market share in 13 of its top 20 export industries, "almost always to China."

Most of Fishman's discussions of Mexico versus China are pp 148-152 in the hardcover version of the book.

In the past two years, I have not found the coverage on this topic in the Economist to contradict Fishman's conclusions, nor his projections for the influence.

DR
 
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BPSCG said:
(...lousy stupid metric system...)

Okay, you're right; shoulda realized it was simple math: 1000 mm = 1 meter = about one yard = 3 feet, so 3000 mm = about 9 feet, give or take... Don't know where my brain was hiding. :boxedin:
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It was a typo. You meant nm, not mm, right?

Darth Rotor said:
Tricky:

For you and ID, and anyone else interested.

Fishman, in China, Inc, reported that between 2001 and 2003, Mexico lost 218,000 manufacturing jobs (low cost labor jobs in direct competitions with China). 500 of about 3,700 "export only" maquiladoro plants closed. Where do you think the labor went? North. In Chicago, about 20% of facory jobs is manned by Mexicans.

There is a Sony plant in Nuevo Laredo where (I recently discovered) I sent my son's PSP last year to get repaired. A few years prior, Sony had "threatened to move to China" if workers didn't grant concessions.

Result? Weekly salaries dropped from about $70 per week to about $52 per week.

On average, a Mexican factory worker earned, three years ago, about four times what a Chinese worker did ( I hear that has changed a bit, but don't have a cite) but about a seventh of what an American worker did. (Fishman's ratios.) In 2002-2003, Mexico lost market share in 13 of its top 20 export industries, "almost always to China."

Most of Fishman's discussions of Mexico versus China are pp 148-152 in the hardcover version of the book.

In the past two years, I have not found the coverage on this topic in the Economist to contradict Fishman's conclusions, nor his projections for the influence.
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Certainly the days of US manufacturers working without competition have ended. Without protectionism, it is going to be hard for the US to compete with cheap foreign labor. This causes philosophical conflict here in the liberal camp, with one part of me wanting to protect worker salaries and another part wanting people to have some job. I don't claim to have the resolution to this conflict, although protectionism is one option. Because of the American economic machine, we can afford to pay more. All of this affects the bottom line. Stuff will cost more. We will have less disposable income.

But ultimately, Americans will be forced to adjust their lifestyles to be more in line with those of the rest of the world. I would prefer that we ease into this phase gradually rather than having the bottom fall out.

But this gets a bit off topic. Start your own damn thread. ;)
 
Tricky said:
But ultimately, Americans will be forced to adjust their lifestyles to be more in line with those of the rest of the world. I would prefer that we ease into this phase gradually rather than having the bottom fall out.

But this gets a bit off topic. Start your own damn thread. ;)
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This is related to Mexicans heading North, and why, and how China and globalism made NAFTA, per your suggestion and the attempt to make things better in Mexico via trade policy, null and void.

The follow up is to put a few numbers on my reference to Fishman's study of China and its impact on global ecnomy. The collateral effects include the effect on Mexico and its economy, which is tied to the wall, fence, or as I think it might work, free fire zone on the border. Only the latter will provide, IMO, the disincentive to risk the crossing. The political will to go to that length is not present in the US.

Yet.

If it ever arrives, we will indeed be living in the "interesting times" of the old Chinese curse.

DR
 
Lonewulf said:
So what's the overall cost of this wall anyways?
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Do you want the constant dollar cost, the cost overrun, or what the Congress estimates it will cost? The latter, like the Big Dig estimate for Boston, is bound to be an underestimation. :D

Check the color of the voting precincts for any 2000 or 2004 election map. Note where Congressional leadership is. I will predict that a set of savvy Congressmen will step onto the "wall/fence" bandwagon to get some fence/wall construction contracts for their counties/districts, from El Paso to Eagle Pass to Brownsville.

DR
 
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Interesting exchange between Tricky and BPSCG. Previously, I was against the fence but I have to admit that BPSCG has made me rethink my position. I am not sure a fence would be all the effective especially considering the $ cost but I am no longer opposed to it for any other reasons.

Lurker
 
WildCat said:
And Tricky, you are deluded if you think there is no harm in illegal immigration. I've been in the construction business for over 20 years, and wages are shrinking due to the influx of cheap labor which doesn't pay income taxes, SS taxes, workmans comp, (but I'm sure you don't mind paying medical bills for illegals who get hurt on the job) etc etc. It's bad enough that at the age of 40 I'm seeking a new line of work, because there is no future in this one. And it's not only Mexicans btw, around here they're just as likely to be from Russia, Poland, Croatia, or other eastern European country. And it's not greedy contractors driving this - it's customers who get several estimates and pick the lowest one without consideration for any other factor. Eventually, you're forced to hire illegals yourself or get out of the business altogether. Profit margins in this industry are damn thin as it is, it really isn't worth it for me any more. Enjoy the remodeled kitchen your illegal workers installed cheaply, but don't be surprised if years later you found out they took many a shortcut on materials and methods.
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This is the same kind of harm the job market has sustained by the use of computers, the decline of unions, the addition of women in the work force, the invention of the automobile, etc.

You seem to be asking for welfare in the form of price controls on labor, all in the cause of undoing the harm done by illegal immigrants. A harm, by the way, that doesn't seem to manifest itself on the economy as a whole. You want the government to force me to hire you for a job over someone else who can do the job for less.

FWIW, illegal immigrants do a pretty good job around here. Like anyone else, perhaps even more than some others, they have to perform well, or else they get no more work.
 
Jeff Corey said:
I hear the same from licensed contractors here. Those costs are real and are not covered by the off the book local who is collecting unemployment and going down to the lot provided by the Town of Huntington to pick up ""guest workers" for $50 a day to do the work not wanted by the other locals. And then someone gets hurt working at your house. That's a clusterfrak. They go to the emergency ward and who pays? Your house insurance, maybe.
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This is a pretty good argument for amnesty. The best way to make sure illegal immigrants pay into the system is to legalize them.

Jeff Corey said:
And does anyone collect payroll taxes here?
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Anyone who has a payroll has to pay, lest risk the consequences. Interestingly, the IRS doesn't care about legal status of anyone, as long as they pay. And they provide for such circumstances by issuing Individual Taxpayer ID numbers. It seems significant numbers of taxpayers pay not only income taxes, but also the rest of the payroll deductions from which they'll not ever see again, such as SS. Additionally, illegal immigrants pay sales taxes and property taxes.

It's true that many illegal immigrants are paid under the table for fairly temporary work. I tend to think such jobs would likely remain under the table even if filled by citizens, simply because the nature of the work is not conducive to the added paperwork.
 
Lurker said:
Interesting exchange between Tricky and BPSCG. Previously, I was against the fence but I have to admit that BPSCG has made me rethink my position. I am not sure a fence would be all the effective especially considering the $ cost but I am no longer opposed to it for any other reasons.

Lurker
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That's always been my main reason against it. The damage to the US in the court of world opinion is not that big of a deal. However, we really haven't touched on the potential environmental problems it could cause.
 
Tricky said:
That's always been my main reason against it. The damage to the US in the court of world opinion is not that big of a deal. However, we really haven't touched on the potential environmental problems it could cause.
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Another reason to consider the "how" of border security is corruption.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/133693.html
Guardsmen on border accused of running smuggling ring
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL
The Associated Press
LAREDO, Texas -- Three National Guardsmen assigned to the Texas-Mexico border were accused of running an immigrant smuggling ring after 24 immigrants were found inside a van that one of them was driving, a U.S. attorney said Monday.

The three, arrested late Thursday and Friday, were arraigned Monday on a federal charge of conspiring to transport illegal immigrants.

Pfc. Jose Rodrigo Torres, 26, and Sgt. Julio Cesar Pacheco, 25, both of Laredo, and Sgt. Clarence Hodge Jr., 36, of Fort Worth, were arrested near Laredo.

A Border Patrol agent found 24 illegal immigrants inside a van Torres was driving along Interstate 35 near Cotulla, Texas, about 68 miles north of the border, prosecutors said. Torres was in uniform at the time of his arrest Thursday.
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Note the following language.
Texas Adjutant General Lt. Gen. Chuck Rodriguez said he was extremely disappointed to learn of the arrests.
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One could guess that he was upset at them being caught, and perhaps that his cut was not going to be forthcoming, but that would be waaaaay too cynical.

Right? :cool:

"Since they won't let us shoot 'em, why don't we make a buck on this deal? Kelly and Crapgame would approve! We make a "deal" deal!" :D

Now, none of them looked like Don Rickles, and I didn't see Oddball in the article, but where there's smoke there's a bar b q. :p

DR
 
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