Workplace Chaplains

[ImaginalDisc]

Perhaps surprisingly, I agree with you. I did not say that military chaplains are effective counselors (though I know a couple who are), only that the responsibility for it generally falls to them.

Regardless of how good some of them may be, could we agree that soldiers, sailors and marines shouldn't have to go to a religious representative when they need counseling?

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

I have similar concerns that people doing counseling have training.

OTOH most EAPs are not present in the work place, they don't come to you at your work site and they are often long waits and more formal procedures. The bottom line according to the story on NPR is that worker satisfaction is higher and employee turnover less.

...SNIP...

I sympathize with your concerns over EAPs. If your experience is typical, then forget them.

But playing Devil’s advocate, I’d point out that for all their bureaucracy, EAPs still have vastly more resources than your standard off-the-rack pastor, AFAIK.

Also, the pastors are hired by the companies and are at their beck and call. IIRC, EAPs are independent, freestanding entities.

Finally, it may be good for the company to retain employees, but that doesn’t mean it’s good for the employees. Maybe the pastors are effectively discouraging them from moving on to much better employment.

Certainly, it would be interesting to have all the relevant info.

 

[drkitten]

Darn, I picked up the enlisted description not the ones for officers.

Here's the ones for officers.

. . .which still compare unfavorably to counselors in the civilian world. A preist with three months of training is no substitute for a professional.

Just because the Army doesn't train chaplains in counselling doesn't mean that they don't have that training. The Army doesn't train doctors, dentists or lawyers, either. In order to become a JAG, you already need to have a law degree. In order to become an Army dentist, you need to already be a dentist. Trapper John got his medical degree at Dartmouth before he ever became an army medic in Korea. (I don't remember where Hawkeye did his degree.)

A priest is a professional counsellor, although you may not like his style of counselling; that's what the courses on "counselling" and "pastoral care" at the seminary are about. A chaplain is a professional counsellor who is also a soldier; the three months of training is not to make a counsellor, but to teach the counsellor to be a soldier as well. (They teach pastoral care at the seminary, but not saluting....)

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Just because the Army doesn't train chaplains in counselling doesn't mean that they don't have that training.

This would only be possible if the chaplain already is a qualified and trained professional counselor, and I see no indication that it is a requirement. While it may be the case that some chaplains do, that's no more likely or relevant than the possibility that some military doctors might be qualified SCUBA instructors. If you think that the chaplains are all qualified counselors, please provide evidence to support that assertion.

 

[drkitten]

This would only be possible if the chaplain already is a qualified and trained professional counselor, and I see no indication that it is a requirement.

From the relevant army recruitment website:

To be an Officer in the Army Chaplain Corps, you must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should certify that you are:

* A clergy person in your denomination or faith group.
* Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army.
* Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.
* Possess a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours.
* Possess a master's degree in divinity or a graduate degree in theological studies, which includes at least 72 hours.

So we can argue about whether or not clergy, in general, are qualified to be counsellors. I could certainly set up the First Church of Drkitten and pass out ordination certificates like drinks at a frat party. I'd have a slightly harder time setting up the Drkitten Seminary and passing out master's degrees, since I'd have to get past the accreditation boards which regulates the contents of degrees in theological studies. But it's a rare person indeed who becomes a clergyman without training in counselling and pastoral studies.

But at this point, we're looking at the same sort of requirements as to be a JAG attorney or a dentist:

To be an Officer in the Army Judge Advocate General Corps you must have a law degree from an ABA-approved law school and have been admitted to the bar of either a federal court or the highest court of any state in the United States or the District of Columbia.

 

[Tanstaafl]

I don't see anything in there to indicate that a chaplain would be trained as a counsellor. It seems to be totally up to the standards of the religion the counsellor comes from. "Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally" is incredibly broad.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

From the relevant army recruitment website:



So we can argue about whether or not clergy, in general, are qualified to be counsellors.

No, we can't. Being a qualified counselor requires an academic background entirely different from theology. If being a Chaplain required a degree in psychology, psychiatry, or other suitable counseling requirements, then we could argue that they are qualified counselors. Being a theologian no more qualifies one to treat Post Traumatic Stress Disorder than being a historian does.

 

[drkitten]

I don't see anything in there to indicate that a chaplain would be trained as a counsellor. It seems to be totally up to the standards of the religion the counsellor comes from.

... as are the standards of what "trained as a counsellor" means.

You have the wrong end of the stick. Clergy, almost by definition, are counselors. You simply don't like the sort of counsel many of them offer (and understandably so). Certainly the APA has a different set of training standards -- but the APA also has a different set of standards from the BPS, and from the AMA, and from the BMA.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

... as are the standards of what "trained as a counsellor" means.

You have the wrong end of the stick. Clergy, almost by definition, are counselors.

Considering that no study shows clergy to be as effective at treating, to choose an condition that is relevant to the issue of counseling in the military, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a properly qualified counselor, how can you even say that they are, by definition counselors? At the most I might concede that they are amateur counselors who should be regarded with as much trepidation as amateur tax accountants and amateur dentists.

 

[Tanstaafl]

I think the primary role of the clergy is theological, with counselling secondary. Plus in some religions the theological beliefs virtually eliminate the possibility of effective counselling in some situations (such as telling a battered wife she should not divorce her husband under any circumstances).

Of course, you are correct that that constitutes me not liking the kind of counselling they offer.

 

[drkitten]

I think the primary role of the clergy is theological, with counselling secondary. Plus in some religions the theological beliefs virtually eliminate the possibility of effective counselling in some situations (such as telling a battered wife she should not divorce her husband under any circumstances).

Of course, you are correct that that constitutes me not liking the kind of counselling they offer.

Yup. I'm sure that the $cientologists object to the kind of psychological treatment the Medical Corps offers, too. If you come from a mindset that actively denies the effectivesness of a course of treatment, I hope that you would object to offering that course of treatment.

But it's difficult to deny either that clergy are counsellors (since they do counsel people) or that people actively seek out that kind of counsel, in many cases to the exclusion of more secularly and medically trained ones. Army chaplains are no less qualified to counsel people than their civilian clerical counterparts, and they're in high demand for that purpose. (And I suspect that, counter to your first sentence above, the primary role of the clergy in the Army is counselling, with theology being secondary. If not, why would chaplains be required to offer counselling to any soldier who wants it, without regard to religion/denomination? The Army is notoriously practical in that regard....)

 

[Tanstaafl]

Yes, I have no doubt that counselling in the primary role of clergy in the army. I meant that comment as applying to clery in general, most of which is not in the miliarty.

Sorry for being vague on that.

 

[drkitten]

Considering that no study shows clergy to be as effective at treating, to choose an condition that is relevant to the issue of counseling in the military, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a properly qualified counselor, how can you even say that they are, by definition counselors?

Because they counsel people. Because people seek them out, on the basis of their professional qualification as clergy, for their counsel. Because their job description says that they offer counsel.

If someone is in demand to bake things, that person is a baker.

If someone is in demand to make shoes, that person is a shoemaker.

If someone is in demand to dance, that person is a dancer.

If someone is in demand to counsel people, ....

 

[ImaginalDisc]

But it's difficult to deny either that clergy are counsellors (since they do counsel people) or that people actively seek out that kind of counsel, in many cases to the exclusion of more secularly and medically trained ones. Army chaplains are no less qualified to counsel people than their civilian clerical counterparts, and they're in high demand for that purpose. (And I suspect that, counter to your first sentence above, the primary role of the clergy in the Army is counselling, with theology being secondary.

ETA:

Because they counsel people. Because people seek them out, on the basis of their professional qualification as clergy, for their counsel. Because their job description says that they offer counsel.

If someone is in demand to bake things, that person is a baker.

If someone is in demand to make shoes, that person is a shoemaker.

If someone is in demand to dance, that person is a dancer.

If someone is in demand to counsel people, ....

By that logic, homeopaths are doctors. They are in demand, and people ask them to treat medical ailments. Their role is just like that of a doctor. Let’s set the issue of qualifications aside.

If not, why would chaplains be required to offer counselling to any soldier who wants it, without regard to religion/denomination? The Army is notoriously practical in that regard....)

That's an argument from an illegitimate authority. There's no reason to believe that the Army is more qualified to determine the requirements to be an effective counselor than the American Psychological Association.

 

[Garrette]

Regardless of how good some of them may be, could we agree that soldiers, sailors and marines shouldn't have to go to a religious representative when they need counseling?

They never have to go. The Chaplain is a safe haven if desired and NCOs and officers will frequently recommend him. Actually, the recommendation usually works the other way, in my experience: Solder is having a problem so soldier's buddy or soldier's sergeant or soldier's officer tries to help him work it out but can't so buddy/sergeant/officer approaches chaplain, without revealing details and says "Hey, padre. Think you could go talk to Jonesie a bit?"

As far as qualifications, drkitten beat me to it. Chaplains are not made clergy upon entry into the army; they are clergy first. Hence, any counseling qualifications are a function of their civilian training.

For significant soldier issues, there are actual psychologists; they are simply not organic to a unit.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

They never have to go. The Chaplain is a safe haven if desired and NCOs and officers will frequently recommend him. Actually, the recommendation usually works the other way, in my experience: Solder is having a problem so soldier's buddy or soldier's sergeant or soldier's officer tries to help him work it out but can't so buddy/sergeant/officer approaches chaplain, without revealing details and says "Hey, padre. Think you could go talk to Jonesie a bit?"

As far as qualifications, drkitten beat me to it. Chaplains are not made clergy upon entry into the army; they are clergy first. Hence, any counseling qualifications are a function of their civilian training.

For significant soldier issues, there are actual psychologists; they are simply not organic to a unit.

Oh, I should rephrase that then. "Can we agree that they should have a better option?"

 

[Garrette]

Oh, I should rephrase that then. "Can we agree that they should have a better option?"

They do, as I said. Real psychologists are available, though how easily they can be accessed on Forward Operating Base SunniDeathCamp I do not know.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

They do, as I said. Real psychologists are available, though how easily they can be accessed on Forward Operating Base SunniDeathCamp I do not know.

The trouble is, and this is an opinion, bad counseling is worse than no counseling. In my opinion, soldiers, sailors and marines would be better off getting their counseling exclusively from someone who is qualified.

 

[Garrette]

The trouble is, and this is an opinion, bad counseling is worse than no counseling. In my opinion, soldiers, sailors and marines would be better off getting their counseling exclusively from someone who is qualified.

Ah. I think we're working off different definitions of "counseling."

I'm using it in a looser form than I think you are, and I don't think any chaplain (none I have worked with anyway) would try to counsel soldiers with real psychological issues.

I'm talking about a soldier who's homesick or got bad news from home or the like. So I really mean "counselor" along the lines of a Ward Cleaver who is wise enough to know his limits.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not sure how "exclusionary" the programs are. Just because the chaplain is a Protestant doesn't mean that he won't offer his services to Catholics and/or Jews. In this regard, it's similar to military chaplains -- usually the regs state that a military chaplain must be prepared and willing to minister to any solider, regardless of his religion or belief.

But if you are not concerned with docterine, why not just get an MSW or something, why go with Woo based practices?