Workplace Chaplains

[ponderingturtle]

I realize that military chaplains have been around as long as the armed forces. But why do you think the chaplaincy is especially archaic? The military seems to think the chaplaincy is highly relevant to the modern armed forces. As for matching modern methodologies to old positions (whether the chaplain or the cavalry unit), don't armies do this as a matter of course?

The thing is they are interpreting an archaic position into a modern needs and brining all the archaic baggage with it, if they invented a new position like they did with medics as medically trained personnel who are not doctors(I am sure there are people who would find that shocking, after all psychiatric training=psychiatrist so medical training must equal doctor)

Now the moral role of the religious practices is a separate issue to debate, and I can see some validity to that in the military as they will be segregated from their normal religious interactions.

 

[ceo_esq]

The thing is they are interpreting an archaic position into a modern needs and brining all the archaic baggage with it, if they invented a new position like they did with medics as medically trained personnel who are not doctors(I am sure there are people who would find that shocking, after all psychiatric training=psychiatrist so medical training must equal doctor).

OK, I see what you meant now.

 

[Darth Rotor]

And the theological education for this work is need because of what?

People have and use religion. The majority of soldiers and sailors use it or benefit from it for morale. The military unique environment requires you to carry with you what you need to a battlefield, so the military structure includes that feature for its people. You take care of your people, you have an effective force.

You seem to demand the tyranny of the minority: that if a few are unhappy, all should be unhappy. Since maintenance of moral, good order, and discipline is a requirement levied on military leadership and structure by Congress, this method has for two centuries been applied to address the needs of the vast majority of the force in a cost effective matter. You get more than just a priest or pastor in a Chaplain, you get a great deal more. As co-Esq points out, it has evolved over time, and in particular the rule on non sectarian/non denomination preference is encoded in law. This is what makes the articles you linked to troubling to military professionals, since such blurring of the line is not up to required standards.

You can't counsel to a soldier's religion without the theology background, but you can counsel non religiously with it, if one is a formally ordained chaplain. It is efficient, and a win-win that can't be supplied by the reverse.

Trying to fix what isn't broken is a fool's path to inefficiency and failure.

DR

 

[ponderingturtle]

People have and use religion. The majority of soldiers and sailors use it or benefit from it for morale. The military unique environment requires you to carry with you what you need to a battlefield, so the military structure includes that feature for its people. You take care of your people, you have an effective force.

So psychologists should have a good theology background then?

This is a seperate issue, do chaplains have a legitimate role in the military and should that role include being a concilor are related but seperate issues.

You seem to demand the tyranny of the minority: that if a few are unhappy, all should be unhappy. Since maintenance of moral, good order, and discipline is a requirement levied on military leadership and structure by Congress, this method has for two centuries been applied to address the needs of the vast majority of the force in a cost effective matter. You get more than just a priest or pastor in a Chaplain, you get a great deal more. As co-Esq points out, it has evolved over time, and in particular the rule on non sectarian/non denomination preference is encoded in law. This is what makes the articles you linked to troubling to military professionals, since such blurring of the line is not up to required standards.

Good arguements for not intergrating the military there as well. Why cave to the blacks, most soldiers are fine with the current situation.

I have not linked any articles. All I did was point out that it is hard to determine the extent of dissatisfaction in either way from those articles. They could be an example of the system working or examples of how the system does not work. With out a larger study it is impossible to tell either way.

You can't counsel to a soldier's religion without the theology background, but you can counsel non religiously with it, if one is a formally ordained chaplain. It is efficient, and a win-win that can't be supplied by the reverse.

So you do think all psychaitrists and psychologists should have a required theology training then.

Trying to fix what isn't broken is a fool's path to inefficiency and failure.

DR

Yea, medics and intergrated units have really hurt our military.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Good arguements for not intergrating the military there as well. Why cave to the blacks, most soldiers are fine with the current situation.

A good argument for a fool, perhaps, and the answer beyond the XIVth amemdment is that "black" is a physical characteristic, not a behavioral one, which is what we are discussing: behavioral welfare of employees, and of soldiers and sailors. Not what they look like.

So you do think all psychaitrists and psychologists should have a required theology training then.

No, but it would not hurt if they are counselling people who are religious.
While the shrinks don't need that specific seminarial training for their role, the chaplains do need the reverse due to the unique nature of their job, and due to their being required, repeated for the umpteenth time, to provide services to non sectarians and non religious as well as the religious.

Why is there no combat shrink? The battlefield is no place for a shrink to do his job. He can't control the environment. The chaplain is not so constrained. The chaplain also refers people to the shrink, where that is warranted. He does not rely on faith healing.

Yea, medics and intergrated units have really hurt our military.

More nonsense.

DR

 

[ponderingturtle]

A good argument for a fool, perhaps, and the answer beyond the XIVth amemdment is that "black" is a physical characteristic, not a behavioral one, which is what we are discussing: behavioral welfare of employees, and of soldiers and sailors. Not what they look like.

We are discussing change to please a minority, that was your arguement. So what minority groups get special status as priviliged and require the majority opinion to change to meet their ideas and which ones is it majority rules?

No, but it would not hurt if they are counselling people who are religious.
While the shrinks don't need that specific seminarial training for their role, the chaplains do need the reverse due to the unique nature of their job, and due to their being required, repeated for the umpteenth time, to provide services to non sectarians and non religious as well as the religious.

Why is there no combat shrink? The battlefield is no place for a shrink to do his job. He can't control the environment. The chaplain is not so constrained. The chaplain also refers people to the shrink, where that is warranted. He does not rely on faith healing.

And why is the religious training vital to that role? Why can't there be combat therapists or what ever? Those are aguements against doctors but they decided to invent medics to solve the problem and not say give chaplins medical training, but tending to the sick has a long religous tradition as well.

 

[drkitten]

We are discussing change to please a minority, that was your arguement. So what minority groups get special status as priviliged and require the majority opinion to change to meet their ideas and which ones is it majority rules?

Thes ones designated as protected classes or their equivalent under Federal law.

As was pointed out, the "free exercise" clause of the Constitution more or less requires that the military provide chaplains.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Thes ones designated as protected classes or their equivalent under Federal law.

As was pointed out, the "free exercise" clause of the Constitution more or less requires that the military provide chaplains.

So what federal laws where changed when Truman intergrated the military?

 

[drkitten]

So what federal laws where changed when Truman intergrated the military?

Truman issued Executive Order 9981 officially integrating the military.

There was at that time no Federal Law supporting the "right" of soldiers to serve in segregated units, so all that really changed was that particular law.

Despite Bush's attempts to the contrary, the President's rather sweeping ability to make executive policy do not extent to overwriting the Constitution.

 

[Darth Rotor]

And why is the religious training vital to that role? Why can't there be combat therapists or what ever? Those are aguements against doctors but they decided to invent medics to solve the problem and not say give chaplins medical training, but tending to the sick has a long religous tradition as well.

Sure, and the Knights Hospitlar not only healed people, but they donned swords and killed them too. So what? Chaplains in deployable units are also trained in combat first aid. You have no point.

Regarding your whatever, you are welcomee to build, from the ground up, the job description of whatever it is you are proposing to replace the Chaplain corps, and suggest it as a replacement to what now works just fine. Congress might agree with you, and implement it. In the end, it may be more cost effective, who knows?

Have you considered trying that?

DR

 

[ceo_esq]

Despite Bush's attempts to the contrary, the President's rather sweeping ability to make executive policy do not extent to overwriting the Constitution.

On a side note, to be honest, Bush's attempts to legislate by executive order aren't that unusual. His immediate predecessor was at least as much of an aficionado of the constitutionally questionable EO. FDR remains the undisputed king of that hill, of course, although to my knowledge, only Truman, Clinton and Dubya ever got judicially shot down for it.

 

[Garrette]

ponderingturtle,

Three options:

1. Chaplains are assigned at the battalion level. They perform voluntary-participation theological duties only. In addition, psychologists are also assigned at the battalion level.

---I take it you have no objection to his from a functional perspective. If you do, I take it your objection is with the military having chaplains at all. If that is the case, we can focus our discussion on that. However, this alternative cannot happen; the cost of assigning psychologists at the battalion level would be prohibitive.

Which leads us to this option:

2. Same chaplain as above. In lieu of a psychologist, trained counselors are assigned at the battalion level. These counselors are adept crisis counseling, minor issue resolution, and recognition of the need for referral to psychologists. In addition, they have legal protections regarding confidentiality.

---Would you object to this alternative from a functional perspective? If so, is it solely due to the existence of the chaplain, or do you object to anyone less than a psychologist providing counseling services at all? If so, we can focus our discussion there. However, this option is also cost-prohibitive; a poor use of resources.

Which leads to this option:

3. A chaplain who wears two hats: The first hat regards performing voluntary-participation theological duties. The second hat regards performing secular counseling duties as outlined in option 2 and assumes training equivalent to the counselor in option 2. The chaplain is expected to compartmentalize the two hats.

---If you do not object to either a psychologist or a secular counselor (as per options 1 and 2) being assigned at battalion level, you cannot rationally object to option 3. If you do, at least we can focus our discussion on that.

 

[Garrette]

So profeshional child care should have no qualifications or regulation? As we don't enforce such things on parents.

It doesn't follow. (1) The chaplains do not "have no qualifications or regulation" in regard to counseling; the fact you keep ignoring this fact does not make it go away. (2) Your argument was suggesting that no one outside a psychologist should counsel anyone. The logical extension is not what you say in the quotation but that parents shouldn't be allowed to parent.

 

[Garrette]

And a great many christians feel that compareing angels to fairies is derrogitory as well. So what invisible entities must you respect the existance of and which ones is it ok to say don't exist?

None and all.

Does the Army respect the belief in Santa Claus?

The army doesn't care unless such belief is indicative of mental problems. If you have evidence that belief in the christian god, the jewish god, the muslim god, the hindu gods, or the mormon god are indicative of mental problems, please share it.

 

[Garrette]

Talked to the Chaplain

I had opportunity to speak with the Chaplain of my reserve unit this past weekend for about 20 minutes. Our mutually busy schedules did not allow more. Still, I think it was worthwhile, and I think you will find the same. I told him why I was asking (I didn’t mention JREF, just that I had a friend who questioned the role of chaplains as secular counselors both from a standpoint of avoiding proselytizing and from the standpoint of qualifications). He had no problem answering my questions and offering his thoughts.

---

The facts about him (as he presented them; I did nothing to verify any of this):

He is Methodist and is still the pastor for his own congregation when he is not performing reserve duties.

He has been a military chaplain for 16 years (he is currently a Major) and became a pastor 10 years prior to that.

After Officer Basic Course (3 months) he immediately became a battalion chaplain as a First Lieutenant. The Basic Course had only two counseling classes and he rates their quality as fairly low in comparison to other training he has received both within and without the military.

To become an ordained Methodist he had to obtain a Masters Degree in either Theology or Divinity; his is in Divinity.

As part of his Masters, he took five Graduate Level courses in Counseling. They were specifically not psychology courses though by necessity they had to touch on it.

During the ten years prior to his becoming a military chaplain he was required to take continuing courses in many topics, including counseling. These courses ranged from suicide prevention to marriage counseling to financial counseling.

He also became a volunteer chaplain at his local hospital. This required him to take the hospital’s mandated counseling training.

After becoming a military chaplain, he had to also continue taking periodic training on many topics, including counseling; in the military, it is not the chain of command that reviews this, but his superiors in the Chaplain Corps. He has taken courses on suicide prevention (at least twice), trauma counseling, and crisis counseling. Each course is a two week residency.

He has been to Chaplain Officers Advanced Course which offered an additional two classes on counseling and which were of similarly low quality as those in Basic Course.

Since becoming a Military Chaplain, but outside his military duties, he has volunteered to act as a counselor for his hometown police department for both the police officers and any prisoners who request a pastor.

He estimates that during his 16 years in the military (not counting the 10 years previous) he has undergone at least 500 hours of counseling training, some of it low quality, some of it very high, and most of it worthwhile.

---

About the process:

Any soldier can voluntarily visit the chaplain about any issue.

Those in a soldier’s chain of command can recommend the soldier visit the chaplain but cannot require it and cannot take adverse action if the soldier declines. The commander (and only the commander) can mandate a soldier receive a psychological evaluation from a psychologist or psychiatrist if the soldier declines to see the chaplain, but the commander could mandate such an evaluation even without offering the chaplain option first.

When a soldier visits the chaplain at the commander’s request, if the chaplain sees nothing to indicate a danger to anyone, the chaplain will report to the commander only the fact that the soldier visited and that there appear to be no problems relevant to the command. Alternatively, if the chaplain determines there may be a danger, or if he determines the issue is beyond his expertise and training, he will refer the soldier to a psychologist and inform the commander of that fact.

Soldiers who seek out the chaplain on their own separate from any recommendation or urging by the chain of command will not be reported at all unless they appear to present a danger or unless they are referred to a psychologist.

---

General comments (paraphrased) from the chaplain:

There are no specifically mandated minimum training standards beyond the courses offered in Basic Course and Advanced Course, and those are the least helpful of any of the training.

As a rule, the military takes chaplains with experience and not newly ordained ones (or the equivalent of “ordained” for non-Christian denominations) specifically to take advantage of their civilian training and experience.

His experience with other chaplains (in and out of the military) indicate to him that all Christian denominations have roughly equivalent civilian training in regard to counseling. He is less sure of Jewish and Islamic chaplains.

The Chaplain Corps does a very good job of monitoring the continuing education of its chaplains in all regards, not just related to counseling, but they take that as a key duty.

Proselytizing during secular counseling is most definitely not allowed and is monitored both by the chaplain’s commander and by the Chaplain Corps.

Religious discussion during other counseling is allowed. As an example, he mentioned marriage counseling which makes up the bulk of his voluntary counselees; most come to him specifically because he is a chaplain and not because he is a counselor, i.e., they want to use his religious expertise in an attempt to help their marriage. Obviously it is appropriate to discuss religious beliefs in such cases.

There are no specifically drawn lines that a chaplain must not cross during counseling; there is no rubric and no algorithm the chaplain follows so that at some point he can say “Oops. I have to stop. You need to see a psychologist now.” However, recognizing one’s own limitations and biases are drummed in during all training and classes so that chaplains know to back off too early rather than too late. As a rule, they don’t take repeat visits for secular issues, though marriage counseling came up again as a big exception. Other exceptions are generally limited to something like: “Why don’t you drop by one more time next month, or, hey, I’ll come see you when you’re in the motor pool, and you can let me know if you need anything else.”

---


Sorry that’s so wordy. I wanted to be complete, and I still can’t guarantee I was.

I came away from it, just as confident in the system as is as I was when this conversation started.