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Why science must eventually reform

That god resides within Uncertainty is something that must be demonstrated, which you can't do because the moment you observe something you have then changed its state and created more Uncertainty.

God may never appear within Certainty, although he may well scurry away into a new Uncertain state, again hiding there just waiting to be observed if only we have the faith to look further.

This cycle repeats until your grant money is rightly pulled and returned to the outraged taxpayers from whom it was stolen.
 
Do you have any idea what this actually means within the context of the universe itself, or how this information relates to that universe, or are you just parroting knowledge passed onto you from another source?

The former. It's really quite easy to understand.


Yes, really. Until you get to the point where you understand what the theory of relativity is, then nothing you say about it is going to make any sense.

Look, it's possible that you have some good ideas. The problem is that you have yet to demonstrate that you can focus your ideas to the point that any of them can be evaluated.

Do you now comprehend that scientists are studying the order inherent within the experience of the universe yielded via the sensations? This is an undeniable fact, since humanity cannot study anything other than it's own experience. All I want to know is whether you understand it?

I might answer that question in another thread without the mush, (i.e. make a precise enough statement of what you're trying to say and stick to it), and the answer would not necessarily be "no," but if you're going to talk about relativity, then you should understand what it is to the extent that you can avoid making false statements about it.

I want you to get what relativity is straight before you start waving your hands about the implications.

Now, you are saying that there is absolute spacetime. So, since you think that I don't know what I'm talking about and that you obviously do, I hereby challenge you to explain what, in itself, absolute spacetime is within the context of the experience of this world which we are having.

Sure. It's a structure that humans (and everything else that is matter) perceive from different vantage points.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that there isn't Something absolute or singular upon/within which all of this relativity-experience occurs, but to describe that thing as absolute-spacetime is pathetic.

You don't even know what relativity is. Seriously, you don't.

I cannot complain that you think what I say pathetic, since I have a similar opinion of what you say. Actually, I consider it quite the compliment.

But at least get relativity right first. This is probably futile, but I am trying to encourage you to learn what relativity is.

I'm sorry mate, but if you don't see anything special about an energy that will always be perceived to move at the same velocity regardless of your own velocity, then you haven't given it much thought.

What do you mean by "an energy"? Are you talking about light? It's already been explained to you, but you don't understand. The Minkowskian norm of an interval traversed by any massless particle is zero, and therefore, c is the only speed it can go at.

For example, let's swap 'light' for 'cats'. Imagine that the velocity of all things in the universe, including light, was relative to your own motion. Except cats. Cats would always be perceived to be moving at 20m/s regardless of your own velocity. So, any intelligent person would regard the motion of cats as "special" with comparison to everything else. But not you, apparently, since you see no big deal about an energy that apparently disregards your own motion!

Again, it's been explained to you, over and over again. c is "special" not because light goes at c. Light and all massless particles have to go at c because c is "special." The only thing "special" about light is that it has no rest mass. It's also the only particle that's known to be massless and has also been detected by itself.

Think man, think. And think within the context of 'light' being a sensation, rather than a real energy existing outside of yourself and moving through real space & time.

I think quite a great deal, thank you very much.

As I said earlier, science studies the order inherent within the exerience of the world, yielded by sensations. And 'light' is a sensation. And the reason why there is a constant relationship between the observing mind and the sensation of light, is because light is not an object in a real world... and neither is the observing mind.

Besides being a bald assertion, this is a non-sequitur.

Oh, so light doesn't have any "special" properties? Then perhaps you could explain to this forum why it ALONE moves through the same [supposedly] real universe as every-thing else, but, unlike everything else, it's velocity is not perceived relative to your own.

Why should I try to justify something that we don't even know is true? There are good reasons to think that gravitons and gluons behave the same way. So there's no basis on which to say that it's just light. It's only recently that there's been a consensus that neutrinos have mass. We're still exploring.

Climb the ladder mate. This isn't a test about who knows more about physic's terminology regarding any specific theory. This thread is a wake-up-call, asking you to see beyond all of that and ask questions.

Sorry, but you aren't even asking questions in such a way that it is possible to deal with the questions. I'm pretty sure that you're terribly impressed with your own profundity, but you really do seem to lack the ability or willingness to focus.
 
lifegazer,

Clearly, you haven't consulted the authors I suggested in an earlier post. You keep harping on about how science is supposed to be objective, but the subjective experience - as mediated through our sense mechanisms - of individual scientists prevents such objectivity.

I have three questions in this context:

(1) How can you be sure that most scientists are unaware that their experience of the world is subjective? How do you know that many of them are not deeply troubled by this same question? Have you tried to establish how a scientist might reconcile such doubt with the principles of his chosen profession?

(2) How can you validly extrapolate from the fact that individual scientists' experience of the world may be subjective to the conclusion that their collective appraisal is similarly hampered?

(3) If all peoples', who include scientists, experience of the world is subjective, then how can we possibly hope to establish any criteria by which objectivity can be gauged?

If our senses are the arbitrator of "what's out there," then no instrument we insert between the world and our perception of it can in any way assist in judging what the stuff "out there" really is. The nature of the "real stuff" will remain forever obscure, and any call for science reform based on an argument of the "real stuff's nature" is a futile gesture. Science can then only progress from a utilitarian perspective.

'Luthon64
I have a pet dislike, namely talking to stone walls. That may be because my experience of this forum is different to yours. See, I experience you as really having an interest in the topic you have raised, as I similarly experience of myself. Please now provide me with the experience of your answers to the questions I have posed above.

'Luthon64
 
Do you now comprehend that scientists are studying the order inherent within the experience of the universe yielded via the sensations? This is an undeniable fact, since humanity cannot study anything other than it's own experience. All I want to know is whether you understand it?
If "humanity cannot study anything other than it's [sic] own experience", why do you insist that science, which is after all a study of the observable universe carried out by humans, must reform because it studies the universe through scientists' experiences of it? If humans can only study things through their own experience, how can science, a human endeavour, possibly reform itself in such a way that it isn't studying the universe through the experience of the universe of the humans carrying out the science?
 
Ah, we are heading for the wonderful lifegazer theory that the speed of sound is absolute just like the speed of light. That was a personal favourite I must admit.

Btw - what happened to lifegazers big experiment? I think he's been asked 4 or 5 times now?
 
Yeah, but Einstein wasn't a philosopher

A damn good thing, too.

If Einstein had been awake to understanding that 'the world' is an experience given to the mind via ordered sensations, he would surely have understood the absoluteness of the observer himself.

"If Einstein agreed with me, he would have been right."

Few here are thinking about what I have posted. The world of objects is indeed an experience... and science is the study of the order that exists amongst that experience. Thus, all theories must/should mould themselves to this fact - rather than treating the world as real in itself.

Any theory that threats the observed universe as unreal is useless, because once observation is made suspect by that assumption, even the SELF becomes suspect. SOMETHING has to exist, and the most rational assumption to make is that this something is the observed universe.
 
Why support a reality that is fictitious? Nobody - including the best scientists you can name, has observed a real world. So ignore their theories about such a world. Instead, listen to theories about the world that you/they have observed: the world of experience, given unto consciousness by ordered sensations.

And what kind of medical science or technology would we have now, had we done this ?
 
What ideas are you talking about? All the philosophers you mention lived before Einstein and didn't know about Relativity... nor QM.

The level of ignorance you display is quite astonishing. You appear to think that ideas like yours were impossible before 20th century physics. As Randfan correctly points out, the true situation is that idealism goes all the way back to ancient Greek and Indian philosophy. It's heyday was the 19th century, in Germany. All of which happened before Einstein. It really is incredible that in all this time, you still haven't actually read anything by or about people like Heidegger, Husserl, Sartre and the many other great philosophers whose work makes your ideas look like the pre-school scrawling of a toddler. You are no different to a Christian who knows nothing about any other religions but is still 100% sure they are all wrong - except that in your case it is the worlds greatest philosophers who you are convinced are wrong even though you know nothing about them.
 
Btw - what happened to lifegazers big experiment? I think he's been asked 4 or 5 times now?

Something about "oneness"? Such that anyone should be able to squat in your home, borrow your car, screw your wife and daughter, and if you object or prevent these actions then you have denied god's plan for our commonality.

I wonder who pays lifegazer's bills? And does his cooking and shopping for him. It is certainly not lifegazer who takes care of lifegazer.
 
Ah, we are heading for the wonderful lifegazer theory that the speed of sound is absolute just like the speed of light. That was a personal favourite I must admit.

I liked the prediction that "after the revolution", all suffering will be ended, and that this will include animals not having to eat anything anymore. The lions won't become vegetarians, that would be silly. Instead, God will arrange things so eating is no longer needed at all. Super!
 
You think it has it ever occurred to lifegazer that he is talking to his persception of us and not the reality? Does he realize it doesn't make any difference?

I hate to think of what his perception of me is doing. But then it really makes no difference.
 
You think it has it ever occurred to lifegazer that he is talking to his persception of us and not the reality? Does he realize it doesn't make any difference?

It makes a difference to us. If he were talking to the reality, he would make sense to other people, and the non sequiturs would go away.
 
What is reality like without perception anyway?

Nothingness in all directions i suppose. Then again how would you define "nothingness" or "in all directions" without perception?

How would I know where the bathrooms are? How would I avoid LG's threads if I didn't know where not to go?

Reality sounds horrible.
 
What is reality like without perception anyway?

Nothingness in all directions i suppose. Then again how would you define "nothingness" or "in all directions" without perception?

How would I know where the bathrooms are? How would I avoid LG's threads if I didn't know where not to go?

Reality sounds horrible.

Are you sure? The rocks seem happy enough.
 
Basic philosophy quickly differentiates between the human-experience and the reality of 'our universe': subjective inner-experience as opposed to objective actual-reality. They are not the same.
For those of you of a level to understand this, let's examine why science needs to reform...

Scientists are human too. They observe the universe through sense-based experience. They cannot escape their own experience of the universe.
They cannot experiment with or contemplate anything other than the sensed-universe. Even their tools and templates exist within their experience and measure parameters and discern laws (order) amongst that experience.
Every scientific understanding or theory of 'the universe' should relate to this fact that the universe we observe is Self-experienced... but it doesn't (hence the need for reform - more later).
No science relates to a 'real world' because no scientist can observe a 'real world'.
In the whole history of philosophy, there is not a single sound-argument which promotes the reality of our universe beyond the experience of it (btw, such a "sound-argument" is not something which negates the irrational nature of individual religious ideas, or 'religion' as a whole).

What is science doing when it denounces religion? Perhaps philosophy can denounce religion, but science cannot. Certainly, science cannot denounce the idea that 'God' - The Creator of All that is experienced - created this universal experience.

Closely observe science. It's theories ASSUME the realistic nature of everything that is observed. Consequently, it's theories mirror this ASSUMPTION.

Consequently, some current theories run-along the line that 'the universe' of real objects existing in real space-time came into being from and extended into NOTHING. Philosophically, such theories can only be judged - with all due respect - as retarded. Such are the consequences of assuming a reality which we cannot experience nor rationalise.
I'll just mention some more important rational blunders:-

1) 'Brains' (objects within experience), are the cause of experience!!!
2) QM - real particles within the real universe, have the ability to emerge from nothing. Yet no scientist has ever observed a real particle!!!!!!!!!
3) Science does not understand why Relativity is at-odds with Newton's Laws of motion. Well, the answer is obvious - Newton was talking about the motion of absolute-objects in an absolute-universe... whereas Einstein (albeit ignorantly) discovered that The Self, alone, is 'absolute'... and all experienced-objects are relative to IT.

Science has progressed so far that it's walked up it's own ass via assumptions of the reality of the world. It's been corrupted by such assumptions. It's theories revolve around such assumptions. Any scientist that mentions 'God' is systematically ridiculed and castigated. Only scientists such as Dawkins are popular amongst the materialistic masses.

It's gotten beyond a joke - not just because it's wrong (science should not be based upon assumption, like the religions it's members have consistently mocked) - but because until 'science' formally reforms to a position obvious from this post, humanity will not progress.
Okay, religion - as we know it - is not the answer. But neither is science - as we know it.

Reform is inevitable. What say thee?


Your post appears to be asking for something like what Karl Popper supplied in 1934, in his 'The Logic of Scientific Discovery'. Or, if it is not asking for this, then I cannot determine what it is asking for. Please read some Popper, and/or visit my blog (at http://poppersinversion.blogspot.com) for a more radical new popperian position. I think that you will find that your accusations apply, if at all, to science as it was 70+ years ago. [Though to be frank, I'd have to admit that a lot of practising scientists have also not read Popper. This makes communication my message very difficult, and perhaps makes your last sentence correct.]
 
Hi there Lifegazer,

I wonder too what happened with "the big experiment". You talked about some very big things, and yet what happened (correct me if Im wrong) is that you got married and are waiting a child (congrats, btw, and if that was all I agree in that it was a big step ;) but not what we would expect). I have to tell you that I was a big worried about you commiting suicide to try to prove that you are something else that your body, the god you used to talk about.

Oh, btw, I always called your attention about this, and here I go again. What you were attempting to do, while futile, is what has been done since long time ago. Search this words when you have time:

Brahma Satyam Jagat Mithya, Jeevo Brahmaiva Na Aparah
 
What is reality like without perception anyway?

Nothingness in all directions i suppose. Then again how would you define "nothingness" or "in all directions" without perception?

How would I know where the bathrooms are? How would I avoid LG's threads if I didn't know where not to go?

Reality sounds horrible.

I think the thing that LG is missing is that mental image thing is a consequence of the percieving process. he focuses to much on the mind part. Without the stimuli processe there whould be nothing from which to draw the perception from. If you shut the stimuli off from the mind, the mind starts generating it's own in a kind of "feed back loop" (see: dreaming and sensory deprivation) But it's all based on previously stored experiance. Without the initial stimulus, could the mind generate anything at all? In fact, could there be a mind at all without some sort of external stimulus? Without hearing or sight or touch how could the mind articulate or experiance any thought at all? From where would the mind get the "tools" to experiance thought? (if that actually makes any sense!?)
The consistant, immutable and unexpected nature of our "reality" leads me to believe that there is an "out there". There is an "out there" that is basis for the information from which our senses pick up and our perceptions are formed.
Now wether the source of that information is a computer or some twisted sort of diety or is actually as it is represented is anybody's guess.

So as LG says, yes our image or view of the universe is, in part, generated in our minds. (much like his photograph analogy) But it is generated from some source of information that is external to us. Just like the image on the photograph is of "something". Some thing is source of information from which image on the photograph derived.

anyhoo, all said before.
 
...anyhoo, all said before.
Over and over and over. And not one person has come forward to support Lifegazer. That is not proof that Lifegazer is wrong. It is proof that his theories or his argument or both are for some reason not persuasive. I'll let the reader decide which and why.
 

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