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Why science must eventually reform

Hey, perhaps we can jump-start this movement by producing a magazine that allows anyone to submit any articles they want, without regard for credentials or methodology.
When or where did I say that science should be reduced to an anything-goes theory of the universe?
In fact, my rationale is quite implicit with regards that science should stop doing such things - as it currently does - and ONLY deliver theories which are consistent with 'the world' being an experience - which is the truth regarding the universe that we experience.

Science should seek to offer theories which equate the order of the experienced-universe with The originator of that experience. This, it does not do. In fact, science currently delivers theories about the [experienced] universe which equates the origin of everything within experience, with something-else that is experienced.
For example, the experienced-brain causes the experience of 'thought'.
... No greater example of 'realism' bias exists, other than those theories which seek to explain the orgin of the universe to something outside of the Self that provides that experience for Itself.
It's so bad it's laughable.

By the way, what credentials exist within the educational system of 'The West' (or anywhere) which would qualify oneself to expose the bias of science and demand a reform of that practise?
Answer = 'none', since the establishments which hand-out 'credentials' are as blinded by science as is everybody else.
However, I doubt very much most of these hard-nosed scientists would ever reform along with us.
There was a time when the world (ruled by religious politics) wouldn't even accept science.
We now live in a world ruled by scientific and realist politics.
The point is, that times change. Slowly, maybe... but they change.
Read some history.
 
The essential point is that experience of a thing is not the reality of a thing in and of itself... regardless of how one experiences a thing.
But what difference could it possibly make? You admit that if you stand in front of a truck the end result is the same whether you and the truck are real or not.
 
True, but meaningless as far as science is concerned.
Ask yourself why it is meaningless to science as to whether the world is an experience or real in itself.
If an experience, the origin of everything experienced is attributed to 'The Self'.
If real, the origin of everything experienced must be attributed to something that is not the self.

... Clearly, one's opinions about the essential reality of existence must affect the causal theories of ~things~.
Bleedin' obvious. Yet few here can see the bias exhibited by science regarding current theories relating to the universe.

Hence, few here recognise the need for scientific reform.
However, that is the fault of the majority here... and not the fault of the logic presented here, by me.
 
...and ONLY deliver theories which are consistent with 'the world' being an experience...
Again, going back to standing in front of a truck. Cause and effect don't change by assuming that "the world" is an experience.

There is no practical benefit for science to make such assumptions. The end results of the experiments will be the same. So following Occam's razor we are justified in dismissing them. It may very well just be an illusion but in the end it doesn't make any difference.
 
But what difference could it possibly make? You admit that if you stand in front of a truck the end result is the same whether you and the truck are real or not.
The difference is 'spiritual'. The experience of oneself can be extinguished. The experience of the world can be extinguished.
However, The ExperiencER, cannot.
Death, is an illusion... a concept gleaned from experience. The ExperiencER does not die, even if It's experiences do.

You are in no position to have a spiritual discussion. So don't try to.
 
Ask yourself why it is meaningless to science as to whether the world is an experience or real in itself.
Simple, nothing changes either way. The world works the same. The laws of physics work the same. Experiments work the same. The outcome of scientific doesn't change.

Considering whether our experiences or real or not simply doesn't change anything.

The world acts the same whether we believe it is real or not. Physical laws work the same whether we believe in them or not.
 
The difference is 'spiritual'. The experience of oneself can be extinguished. The experience of the world can be extinguished.
A claim. One that has nothing to do with science.

You are in no position to have a spiritual discussion. So don't try to.
You might be right. Though I'm not certain why you think you are qualified to draw that conclusion.

But that is irrelevant. I am in a position to discuss whether or not science must eventually reform which is a resounding, NO!
 
Hence, few here recognize the need for scientific reform.
We can do the math.

Science + an assumption that reality is an illusion = ((Science + an assumption that reality is an illusion) - an assumption that reality is an illusion)

However, that is the fault of the majority here... and not the fault of the logic presented here, by me.
What logic? You have not explained how science would be any different.
 
I thought you were going to show us all with your big thing you had planned to prove you are god?

Here, I'll quote you if your absolute memory is off, mr. absolute god:



source.


Now you told us:



source.


Which seems to suggest you would only return here if it is of important to us here.

What's so important that you're back now?

Or are you just trolling again?

Lifegazer - this will be, I believe, the 6th time this has been posted.
 
The difference is 'spiritual'. The experience of oneself can be extinguished. The experience of the world can be extinguished.
However, The ExperiencER, cannot.
Death, is an illusion... a concept gleaned from experience. The ExperiencER does not die, even if It's experiences do.
Here, you are making an assumption for which you have no evidence: that the universe is not real. This leads you to make an assertion, that death is an illusion, that has no evidential or logical basis.

If there is a real universe, even if our experiences of it do not reflect its reality, it can continue to exist independently of any entity experiencing it. An "experiencer" (even you) can cease to exist without causing the rest of the universe to cease to exist. I'm sorry if this idea is not to your liking, but there it is.

You are in no position to have a spiritual discussion. So don't try to.
And you are in no position to have a discussion about science.
 
Lifegazer - this will be, I believe, the 6th time this has been posted.
You know, I forgot how smug and condiesending he was when he made his anouncement. If he has such contempt for us then why did he bother coming back if the important event had not taken place?

... The actual truth is to be found in that post of my previous thread. I'm sitting here now, having re-read it, and don't actually regret saying anything, except perhaps "Watch the news".
And why do I regret saying that? Because presently, I lack the authority/faith to effect that news.

So read that post. It's how I actually feel about this forum and most of the people here. And any of you who say that I have no justification whatsoever for feeling like that, are ****ing liars. Probably from the same group of psycho/dullards I spoke of earlier.

Few of you here (if any) want an absolute-God (a God who is the totality of existence) to exist. Why? Because it spells the end of your human self. It heralds the end of your measly lives and destroys everything contained within them, including your measly families and your measly set of friends. Not to mention your ****ing measly countries, you nationalistic dogs.
Yes, nationalism - next to the idolisation of finite Gods - is the numero-uno culprit of all human affections.
Your ignorance is pathetic and yet responsible for all borders/division and war.

Do I care that I offend you? LOL. Do I ****.
This is the end. What are 'they' (the ****ing poxy JREF establishment) gonna do to me? Ban me? LOL. What a laugh. Sheep leading the lambs. How sad. How truly sad.

It's over. It's over for you and it's over for me. The stupidity and hypocrisy of this place stinks. That's why I'm going. The sheep are akin to parrots and the lambs are akin to blank-tape recording parrot-speak for a future date.

My faith in humanity has succumbed to an all-time low. Does that mean - as PSA suggests - that I'm about to buy myself a machine-gun and gonna go out in a blast? Or, as he also suggests, does it mean that I'm going to go and jump off a pier and kill myself as to avoid you all?
Nope. It means PSA is a completely obsessive ****ing-dodo who needs everything that he wants me to need, lest he realises that he needs it himself.

I have no respect for humanity because I don't believe in the actual existence of humanity. Yet I respect the life in all, for I believe that the life of all is God.
 
Few of you here (if any) want an absolute-God (a God who is the totality of existence) to exist. Why? Because it spells the end of your human self.
For the record, "want" does not enter into it. I want simply to know the truth. If I am god then I'm happy to find that out. But give me proof that I am god other wise it is just one more belief out of many thousands to choose and believe. To date you have offered little more than fallacy and rhetoric.
 
Lifegrazer keeps coming back

You know, I forgot how smug and condiesending he was when he made his anouncement. If he has such contempt for us then why did he bother coming back if the important event had not taken place?

He keeps coming back because a) he hasn't the will/ability or both to look into the sources others have suggested to explain to him why he is not the first or (remotely) best to come up with this claptrap and b) he enjoys constantly trying to deflect points against his belief system with nothing but(cries) of naivite and, possibly, c) he is intelligent enough to know this is silliness and is trying to see how long people will continue arguing with him.:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :D
 
When or where did I say that science should be reduced to an anything-goes theory of the universe?
My mistake. You never claimed science should be "anything goes". You merely suggested it should allow ontological philosophy to infuse with it, which practically speaking, amounts to the same thing, in the end.

In fact, my rationale is quite implicit with regards that science should stop doing such things - as it currently does - and ONLY deliver theories which are consistent with 'the world' being an experience - which is the truth regarding the universe that we experience.
You are mistaken, here, about the current nature of science. Science does NOT currently allow "anything goes" theories. They already only offer theories that fit with what was experienced. More accurately, they offer theories based on the collective experience of all scientists.
Sometimes, scientists make mistakes, or sometimes intentionally massage data to fit with what they want. The neat thing is that these inaccuracies are eventually uncovered by further observations/experiments/investigations, etc. Thus, science can only build provisional models.

Science should seek to offer theories which equate the order of the experienced-universe with The originator of that experience. This, it does not do. In fact, science currently delivers theories about the [experienced] universe which equates the origin of everything within experience, with something-else that is experienced.
For example, the experienced-brain causes the experience of 'thought'.
What do you mean by the "Originator" of that experience? Do you mean the scientist experiencing his or her results, or God, or something else? I don't think you make this clear.
Incidentally, if you meant "The scientist", then science already does this. Reform is unnecessary, and perhaps I might have been mistaken assuming that you meant arguments outside of that, such as "god".
If, however, you meant God as the originator, then you have to have some serious empirical evidence to provide, before we accept the concept of God into science.

... No greater example of 'realism' bias exists, other than those theories which seek to explain the orgin of the universe to something outside of the Self that provides that experience for Itself.
It's so bad it's laughable.
Those theories about the origin of the Universe are provisional models only. They are the best guesses scientists can make, based on what they have observed so far in the cosmos, in their particle accelerators, in their equations, etc. No sane scientist is going to claim they are anything more than that.

By the way, what credentials exist within the educational system of 'The West' (or anywhere) which would qualify oneself to expose the bias of science and demand a reform of that practise?
Answer = 'none', since the establishments which hand-out 'credentials' are as blinded by science as is everybody else.
Well, first of all, the education system of "The West" is pretty freakin' lousy, when it comes to science education. If it was any better, fewer people like you would have such a misinterpreted view of it.
Secondly, "The West" as a style of philosophy, has nothing to do with science. Science is the same all over the Universe (assuming there is life on other planets - if there is, and they developed science, then science would be exactly the same for them).

There was a time when the world (ruled by religious politics) wouldn't even accept science.
We now live in a world ruled by scientific and realist politics.
The point is, that times change. Slowly, maybe... but they change.
Read some history.
I've probably read more history than you, it seems. The world is actually ruled more by ideological politics, rather than science and "realist" politics (whatever "realist" means). This, of course, is not a good thing.
Perhaps, politics needs to reform to accept more science and provisional realism (which may differ from "realist"), and fewer appeals to absolute morality and "faith-based" values.
Times do indeed change, of course, but history indicates that if the world is going to continue becoming a happier place, it will need to base its policies more on empirical science.

Ask yourself why it is meaningless to science as to whether the world is an experience or real in itself.
If an experience, the origin of everything experienced is attributed to 'The Self'.
If real, the origin of everything experienced must be attributed to something that is not the self.
I'll let you in on a little secret: I once asked myself very similar questions. (This was a few years before I became a real skeptic) The answer I eventually came up with is this: There is real value in keeping science based purely on empirical evidence, without regard to ontological distinctions between "experience" and "real in itself". There is value in keeping the scientific method pure and distinct from philosophy and other related methods of thought. That value takes many forms: It is in the medicine and treatments we have for disease. It is in developing our understanding of the planet, which enables us to foresee impending disasters. Its provisional models of the origins of the universe help explain and predict what we observe in the cosmos and in our physics experiments. All of this value could be lost when science decides it is more important to offer meaning to ontological arguments, such as distinctions between "real" and "experienced". Such distinctions could offer value only to philosophical thinking.

... Clearly, one's opinions about the essential reality of existence must affect the causal theories of ~things~.
Bleedin' obvious. Yet few here can see the bias exhibited by science regarding current theories relating to the universe.
This is why our theories relating to the Universe are only provisional. They are only models. They are only "best guesses" based on collective experience. No sane scientist would think otherwise.

Hence, few here recognise the need for scientific reform.
However, that is the fault of the majority here... and not the fault of the logic presented here, by me.
I beg to differ. Your logic, unfortunately, has been less than impeccable. In other posts you talk about spirituality as a scientific concept, without providing empirical evidence than spirits even exist. So, there are two possabilites:
1) Few recognize the need for reform, simply because you, personally, can not communicate the idea well. OR
2) More likely, many of us have already recognized the limits of science. But, instead of reforming science, we relegate such outside-science concepts to philosophy. And, philosophy is not science.
There is a whole fringe industry of postmodern people writing essays on exactly the sorts of things you are babbling about. But, of course, postmodernism is not considered science, either.
Seriously, I would suggest reading some of the Popper and other books others have suggested in this thread. You have an enthusiasm not found in most people. This is a good thing. You need only learn how to apply your enthusiasm more constructively.
 
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Something has to actually have being before it even has the potential to die.

Experiences end... they don't die.
Semantics. A distinction without a difference. The experience known as Lifegazer will end. You can fantasize that you will start another experience or something else that will permit some aspect of you to continue and if that brings you comfort that is fine. There is no reason for anyone else to share your fantasy though.
 

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