Why is prostitution illegal?

[kerikiwi]

But I don´t agree with those of you who say sex work "is just like any other work". It only is like that when it´s done totally freely and consensually.

Of course it is like any other work! If sex work (or any other work) is done freely and consensually it should be the individual's choice whether they sell or buy the product.
If sex work ( or any other work) is not done freely and consensually, legal sanctions should apply.

Coercion into having sex is called rape and that is illegal. Nobody has suggested that rape is the same as other forms of coercion. But what other forms of coercion are you thinking of when you draw this comparison?

 

[Mobyseven]

I agree with you on all that, except that heroin (at least in its pure form, morphine) is deadly. It is not.

Two things here - first, heroin and morphine are two different molecules - morphine is not the 'pure form' of heroin, the pure form of heroin is heroin.

Second, while the LD50 of pure heroin is surprisingly high, the vast majority of available heroin is not pure, which leads both to possible reactions to whatever it has been cut with, and widely varying purity (so that one can never be sure just how much actual heroin they are injecting). In addition to this, a great many heroin deaths occur not because of overdose, but because the nausea that can occur as a side effect of heroin use causes users to asphyxiate on their own vomit.

 

[Mobyseven]

Would t be the same if:

-Your boss bluntly offers you a raise for sex.
-Your boss offers you to change your job description to 'land tax department CSO and sex gimp'
-Your boss offers you to change your job description to 'payroll tax'

?

The same?

The first would be "sexual harassment" by all standards, and the last would not by any standard.

What I´m trying to show is that the second, although being in essence like the first, if 'land tax department CSO and sex gimp' were a legal job, then technically it wouldn´t be sexual harassment.

Or would it? In that case sex work is not "just like any other work"...

If 'land tax department CSO and sex gimp' were a legitimate position, then technically it wouldn't be sexual harassment to just offer me the job. Of course, if cows had wings it wouldn't be kosher to eat them, which is what makes hypotheticals fun.

Even if the position were real, while a one time offer to apply wouldn't necessarily be harassment (though it depends on how it is construed by the potential employee), if the boss were to repeatedly offer or try and force the job on me, that would be harassment - regardless of the particular position.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Abooga, you're just beating a dead horse, fella, aren't you?

Your arguments have more holes in them than a wheel of Swiss Cheese.

Let's just tackle this a wee bit at a time, because IMHO, you've just got to be able to see the flaws in your own logic and statements. You've got to! I refuse to believe that anyone thinks as muddy as you're presenting, here.

Sole Topic: Secretary With Perks

It wouldn't be "Position Available: Secretary With Perks". It would be "Position Available: Secretary Who Puts Out for Better Pay". (And I think we've already identified a name for that, haven't we?)
Now, just assuming you were using "with perks" as a euphemism (wink wink nudge nudge)... It would never get past about four hundred local laws and so it's a total illusion.

BTW, the job "with perks" is called "Boss With Perks"... You get to bang your secretary ... it's a perk many of us claim to have but it's usually not true.

But, again just for argument's sake, let's concede you your silly hypothetical.... Let's just say there was such a job description. What would qualify a secretary for such a job? Big hooters? Nice butt? Ties cherry stems without using her digital extremities? Or, could any qualified "clerical" or "secretarial" help apply. You see where this is heading? You're looking at breaking another law or twenty.

Or would you like to meet Ramona Stinkypits, the 189 kg clerk who wishes to be your "secretary with perks". As her former boss, says, "Heck, she's got everything a guy wants... muscles, a tatoo of a cobra, and a moustache". She can apply under Abooga's EOE plan?

And let's say you get around that part, too.
So now.......
Such a position exists.
And.. You are allowed to somehow discriminate so that only persons who are appealing to your sexual urges are allowed to apply.
You then delve into said hypothetical boss somehow evolving the inherent right to force Serena Sweethang into taking such a job. Just so the boss could have boinking rights. I think you just violated another two dozen laws.

It's rather basic. No one can order someone to do something that is against their will, in business. One has the power of the legs. Walk out! There's also the issue of bosses forcing anyone to apply for a job or accept a job that said person doesn't want and is not qualified for. "But your honor!!! I mean, look at her. You just gotta let me toss her up on the desk a couple of times a week. Yeah, I know she's married, the thought of me repulses her, and she's a devout muslim and thus will be stoned to death, but heh... look at that tush!"


Yes, you can fall back on that trite old "forced by poverty" nonsense. But as you've been shown a dozen times, anyone could make their claim about their job. Burger flippers, parking lot attendants, actuaries, programmers... all of em think they should be doing something else for more money, but they have this unfortunate addiction to food. (Meh, I'm thinking of suing my company. I know a couple a hundred G is okay money, but I really feel I have a calling to be a potentate of a small island kingdom somewhere. I'm merely being exploited by my company into performing tasks that are beneath me and repulsive to my beliefs because of my poverty (e.g. inability to put away enough to pay cash for the condo in Koh Samui).

Now if there's anything we haven't covered, you let me know. I'll work with you on this. Everyone else seems exasperated, but I just tuned in so I'm fresh as a daisy (so to speak).

 

[Abooga]

Abooga, you're just beating a dead horse, fella, aren't you?

Your arguments have more holes in them than a wheel of Swiss Cheese.

Let's just tackle this a wee bit at a time, because IMHO, you've just got to be able to see the flaws in your own logic and statements. You've got to! I refuse to believe that anyone thinks as muddy as you're presenting, here.

Sole Topic: Secretary With Perks

It wouldn't be "Position Available: Secretary With Perks". It would be "Position Available: Secretary Who Puts Out for Better Pay". (And I think we've already identified a name for that, haven't we?)
Now, just assuming you were using "with perks" as a euphemism (wink wink nudge nudge)... It would never get past about four hundred local laws and so it's a total illusion.

BTW, the job "with perks" is called "Boss With Perks"... You get to bang your secretary ... it's a perk many of us claim to have but it's usually not true.

But, again just for argument's sake, let's concede you your silly hypothetical.... Let's just say there was such a job description. What would qualify a secretary for such a job? Big hooters? Nice butt? Ties cherry stems without using her digital extremities? Or, could any qualified "clerical" or "secretarial" help apply. You see where this is heading? You're looking at breaking another law or twenty.

Or would you like to meet Ramona Stinkypits, the 189 kg clerk who wishes to be your "secretary with perks". As her former boss, says, "Heck, she's got everything a guy wants... muscles, a tatoo of a cobra, and a moustache". She can apply under Abooga's EOE plan?

And let's say you get around that part, too.
So now.......
Such a position exists.
And.. You are allowed to somehow discriminate so that only persons who are appealing to your sexual urges are allowed to apply.
You then delve into said hypothetical boss somehow evolving the inherent right to force Serena Sweethang into taking such a job. Just so the boss could have boinking rights. I think you just violated another two dozen laws.

It's rather basic. No one can order someone to do something that is against their will, in business. One has the power of the legs. Walk out! There's also the issue of bosses forcing anyone to apply for a job or accept a job that said person doesn't want and is not qualified for. "But your honor!!! I mean, look at her. You just gotta let me toss her up on the desk a couple of times a week. Yeah, I know she's married, the thought of me repulses her, and she's a devout muslim and thus will be stoned to death, but heh... look at that tush!"


Yes, you can fall back on that trite old "forced by poverty" nonsense. But as you've been shown a dozen times, anyone could make their claim about their job. Burger flippers, parking lot attendants, actuaries, programmers... all of em think they should be doing something else for more money, but they have this unfortunate addiction to food. (Meh, I'm thinking of suing my company. I know a couple a hundred G is okay money, but I really feel I have a calling to be a potentate of a small island kingdom somewhere. I'm merely being exploited by my company into performing tasks that are beneath me and repulsive to my beliefs because of my poverty (e.g. inability to put away enough to pay cash for the condo in Koh Samui).

Now if there's anything we haven't covered, you let me know. I'll work with you on this. Everyone else seems exasperated, but I just tuned in so I'm fresh as a daisy (so to speak).

Perhaps I am a dead horse...

The phrase "secretary with perks" I took form SophieHirchfield earlier in this thread. I thought it was obvious what it meant. A secretary that the boss can bang (if/when she allows it, like any other prostitute...). I assumed that if prostitution were legal such a job title would be legal too. Let´s assume it for the sake of the argument.

Now imagine your wife who happens to work as a secretary gets offered that "position"

And so on. I won´t repeat the whole thing again.


I don´t know how this phrase of yours is relevant:

"Let's just say there was such a job description. What would qualify a secretary for such a job? Big hooters? Nice butt? Ties cherry stems without using her digital extremities? Or, could any qualified "clerical" or "secretarial" help apply. You see where this is heading? You're looking at breaking another law or twenty."

??

And why is that "forced by poverty" nonsense? I know that technically choices are choices and as such voluntary. But don´t you see there´s a whole spectrum and on one end it could be a fraction away form pure coercion, that is, rape?

For example, the "Droit de seigneur" tradition. Women would go and lay with the lord, "voluntarily", but did that in order to avoid bad things happening to them and their families...

Was that really totally voluntary?

...

Thanks for your interest Foolmewunz, anyway! Not being a native English speaker, it´s a bit hard for me to express myself clearly...

 

[JFrankA]

Now imagine your wife who happens to work as a secretary gets offered that "position"

And so on. I won´t repeat the whole thing again.

So? Some of us guys would understand if she was doing that. There are plenty of guys who are married to strippers and yes, prostitutes. Me personally, it wouldn't bother me at all as long as she was enjoying herself, safe and she still loves me.

Pulling that statement is just pointing a finger and using a scare tactic. It's simply an appeal to emotion and has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Abooga]

So? Some of us guys would understand if she was doing that. There are plenty of guys who are married to strippers and yes, prostitutes. Me personally, it wouldn't bother me at all as long as she was enjoying herself, safe and she still loves me.

Pulling that statement is just pointing a finger and using a scare tactic. It's simply an appeal to emotion and has nothing to do with the discussion.

I didn´t say "If she was doing that", I said "If she got offered that"

 

[JFrankA]

And why is that "forced by poverty" nonsense? I know that technically choices are choices and as such voluntary.

Because it is pure nonsense. Poverty sucks. Great. We are all in agreement there, but you've said it yourself: "choices are choices and as such voluntary". One doesn't HAVE to choose prostitution. It may be the easier choice but it's not the ONLY choice. An impoverished person could choose to be a prostitute, or has the choice, agreed a harder one, to do something else.

But don´t you see there´s a whole spectrum and on one end it could be a fraction away form pure coercion, that is, rape?

No. Because it's NOT a spectrum. It's simple: Rape = no choice. A person is overpowered by physical means. So for example, when you say

For example, the "Droit de seigneur" tradition. Women would go and lay with the lord, "voluntarily", but did that in order to avoid bad things happening to them and their families...

Was that really totally voluntary?

I may sound mean here, but if that woman wasn't tied down, held down, etc, then yes. The degree of how easy your choices are does not mean that they aren't there.

If it's easier to have sex with the guy and be done with it than to fight the system, the choice is there. It hasn't gone away.

With rape there is no choice. Period.

Now a boss might tell a subordinate "have sex with me and I'll give you a raise", but the subordinate still has a choice. She is not being raped. Harassed, yes. But even if she decides to have sex with the boss, it is NOT rape. She choice the raise over either dealing with the boss or even quitting.

This is one of the major reasons why the "forced by poverty" argument doesn't hold water.

 

[JFrankA]

I didn´t say "If she was doing that", I said "If she got offered that"

Sorry, my mistake. But my statement still applies

Harassment? Yes. Possibly. Maybe not even that. Some people might see it as a "Job Opportunity" and not "Harassment".

Rape? No. Not at all.

 

[fagin]

Why are you assuming the total number of prostitutes would stay constant?

Are you sure legalising prostitution and having high(er)-class brothels would not stimulate the market to grow?

Who knows? So what. It would be a legal profession. Preferable to more lawyers or something, at least you get some pleasure whilst being screwed.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Yes I am sure most all women dream of sleeping with 10-15 fat balding, hairy disgusting men who are too hideous to get women to sleep with them each day. It sounds like a dream come true.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Because if it was legal, all women would be taking money from men for sex.


Wait a minute...

 

[dann]

The argument that prostitution should be illegal because some desperate women turn to it to support their addictions and/or children falls flat on its face when you consider that by closing even that avenue to such women, you are making them even more desperate.

You are right! It is a very poor argument for making prostitution illegal, but it is still a good argument against prostitution as well as against ...

The analogy with kidnapping and forcing an individual into either cleaning cars or being raped also falls flat on its face. Kidnapping is illegal. Rape is illegal. The law already regards one as worse than the other.
Economic coercion applies to everyone in every job to varying degrees. I am coerced into going out to work. I choose a different line of work from most other people. The operative word is 'choose'.

... the economic coercion that forces this 'choice' on some poor people.

If a man or woman chooses to earn their money by selling sex, it should be nobody else's business.

You mean: 'If a man or woman is economically coerced to earn their money by selling sex', don't you?!

And that is not a very good argument for the legalization of prostitution, but a very good one against economic coercion!!!

More arguments against the free market:
http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/What_is_Free_Market.htm
http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/poverty.htm
http://www.ruthlesscriticism.com/capitalindex.htm

 

[JFrankA]

Yes I am sure most all women dream of sleeping with 10-15 fat balding, hairy disgusting men who are too hideous to get women to sleep with them each day. It sounds like a dream come true.

Dream about it? Most likely no. But then, let's follow your thinking one step further.

"Yes, I am sure that most all people dream of sitting in a cubical, answering 70-80 phone calls from angry, uninformed and sometimes unintelligent people who have no qualms bullying people around and vent their anger at a stranger who is trying to help them in order to get the products they want for free each day. It sounds like a dream come true."

....customer service rep. (My day job)

And I'm sure everyone on this board can alter your statement the same way.

Anyone else?

 

[JFrankA]

Dann!!!!!!

You're here!!!!!

I KNEW you'd show up!!!! Come here and give me a hug!!!!!!!!!

 

[Foolmewunz]

Abooga,
You don't understand at all. You're still proposing to violate more freedoms (personal/moral) and laws than you can shake a stick at.

Discrimination, for one. Big Ramona isn't going to get a chance for that plushy job, is she? Office jobs that only women can apply for? And then any form of coercion into taking the position. Just because prostitution, and therefore it's offshot, biffing the boss for big bucks, is made legal, we do not necessarily cancel all other laws.

That's why so many say that your hypothetical is rife with holes. The mere legalization of prostitution does not say that we recodify the country in which it is legalized. Almost all countries of posters on these boards have various rights, entrenched by law and upheld by judiciaries.

Moby offered a very good scenario which you diverted. You assume a buyer's market in employment, and a market that allows bosses to coerce people into things they morally or legally object to. You keep glossing over that or ignoring it. In what world do people live in such fear of losing their job that they would take a job that was totally repugnant to them? (I'm not talking about cleaning grease traps or something else "icky", e.g. dirty jobs that people do to get by. I'm talking about immoral or disgusting propositions, e.g. things that you would hate yourself for doing.)

If you're just talking about money, then that's a choice for the individual. If my girlfriend or wife or daughter was offered such a chance and decided to take the job, I'd have to discuss it and deal with it then..... As long as it's based on free choice/will and the boss is not in any way able to threaten their career or potential hireability, then it's a matter of choice - whether those of us who can write our names in the snow agree with it or not.

But just to be clear.... any form of forcing/coercing is morally and legally wrong.

If "sextretary" becomes a legal job position, then there will be people who are properly qualified for the job. Those people could/would apply for it. The cafeteria lady could not be forced to.

 

[Soapy Sam]

At least, not most cafeteria ladies.

 

[slingblade]

Again?

Yes, I know. I couldn't quite believe it, either, but yes, you did do it again.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Dream about it? Most likely no. But then, let's follow your thinking one step further.

"Yes, I am sure that most all people dream of sitting in a cubical, answering 70-80 phone calls from angry, uninformed and sometimes unintelligent people who have no qualms bullying people around and vent their anger at a stranger who is trying to help them in order to get the products they want for free each day. It sounds like a dream come true."

....customer service rep. (My day job)

And I'm sure everyone on this board can alter your statement the same way.

Anyone else?

i Given a choice? I think most everyone would take that over sleeping with smelling disgusting men. That would probably be a dream job to most prostitutes.

 

[JFrankA]

i Given a choice? I think most everyone would take that over sleeping with smelling disgusting men.

Exactly!!! Choice!!!

No matter how little, no matter how hard -- THERE'S A CHOICE.

That would probably be a dream job to most prostitutes.

Glad you've made that choice for prostitutes everywhere!

I know a friend who is an adult performer/escort who has told me that she'd never ever switch her job with mine no matter how much it paid.

Generalization does not equal truth.