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Who's got the most terrorists? We do!

zenith-nadir said:
Terrorism by Palestinian extremists to kill the deal is why Oslo failed. Whether it was expected or not is moot. The PA has categorically failed to fulfill its primary obligation – repeated in every agreement it signed – to disarm and dismantle the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure. Since there has been no elicit “Palestinian” reciprocity and cooperation to disarm and dismantle the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure there has been no resolution to the mideast conflict. Period, end of story.

Events have become so ludicrous that part of the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure that was supposed to be dismantled - Hamas - now runs the Palestinian Authority.
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you left off the years of relative peace from your graph. Oslo could have worked. (no thanks to Arafat). The land grab never stopped. Finally, after Oslo was dead and buried, Sharon realises the land grab wasn't going to work, either.
 
Whose destiny?

"Palestinians are in the way of destiny..."

Yes, they most certainly are.
Their leaders (and the Arab leaders in surrounding states) have completely failed to take advantage of the circumstances and cooperate with the single most awesome thing to have come about in their region during past 100 years --- the Nation of Israel.

If Israel were TODAY to be the sovereign nation within the entire mandated areas of so-called "Palestine" as decided at San Remo in 1922 -- including all of Jordan, to the Iraqi and Saudi borders) -- then the crybabies of the world would not be demanding a 'return to the 1949' cease-fire lines at all. The San Remo Conference in 1922 clearly set the stage for the palestinians in the general area to live alongside the jews, and they would have done so. There would be a great intermingling, and prosperity, and I daresay the enire conversation we're having here would not be taking place.

Instead of that, we have the islamists trying to bring their racism and their xenophobia to bear. And not just against Israel.

Israel has over a million palestinian-arab citizens, and their destiny is to be a peaceful part of Israel.
Jordan has millions of palestinian-arab citizens and their destiny is to be at peace with Israel.
HAMASTAN has millions of palestinian-arab citizens and their destiny is to be at war with Israel (as an arm of the Iranian mullahs, and an extension of the Syrian Ba'athists).

They had better change their tune, or their destiny will be short-lived.

(BTW, I have predicted an Israeli raid on Iranian nuclear enrichment sites on or about March 20th, a week before the Knesset Parliamentary elections, on the Perisan New Year). That should give the HAMAS a wake-up call, as their main sponsors are brought to their knees. It should give the Russians and South Africans pause, as well, about their little displays of trying to 'reform' Hamas!
 
webfusion said:
[b
If Israel were TODAY to be the sovereign nation within the entire mandated areas of so-called "Palestine" as decided at San Remo in 1922 -- including all of Jordan, to the Iraqi and Saudi borders) -- then the crybabies of the world would not be demanding a 'return to the 1949' cease-fire lines at all.
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So your vision of Israel would have been a muslim nation? Or would the Jewish minority have had a special position in the nation?
 
a_unique_person said:
you left off the years of relative peace from your graph.
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"Relative peace" = only a few dozen Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists sent by Hamas & Arafat per year, as opposed to hundreds during the second "Intifada".

Of course, there was, on average, more terrorism during this "relative peace" than during any ten years of the pre-Oslo occupation. You know, that time of war and strife before "peace" had arrived from Oslo.

Hey, what's not to like about the "peace process"?
 
Skeptic said:
"Relative peace" = only a few dozen Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists sent by Hamas & Arafat per year, as opposed to hundreds during the second "Intifada".

Of course, there was, on average, more terrorism during this "relative peace" than during any ten years of the pre-Oslo occupation. You know, that time of war and strife before "peace" had arrived from Oslo.

Hey, what's not to like about the "peace process"?
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Britain has stuck with 'relative peace', and succeeded. Sri Lanka is still trying hard, with one step back for every two steps forward. I think you should be looking back fondly on the post Oslo period, compared to now.
 
I think you should be looking back fondly on the post Oslo period, compared to now.
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No way!

On both sides, the political atmosphere is much better and stable currently, with the HAMAS just calling for a year long extension of a mainly-respected cease-fire, and their fortunes tied to consolidation of power in the PA.
Also, Israel has a very moderate interim government about to stand for new elections, and they have excellent chances of being able to move the settlers out of most of the territories within the next 4 years (leaving large blocks of towns and villages, while dismantling the isolated and smaller units).

This period now is very comfortable, all things considered.
A lot more can be accomplished under the constellation of elements we see now, than was able to be done with Arafat and the previous Israeli right-wing governments.

I personally have a lot of optimism for major progress this Spring towards a lasting peace and I'm not particularly looking back to the 'post oslo period' with any degree of fondness, and I doubt many others are either.
 
TF, if the Mandate had been carried out properly, and the jews not stopped from immigration and close settlement into ALL areas of palestine (as defined in San Remo) according to the Balfour Declaration, then no, I don't think the arabs would have held a majority today. You are forgetting that in the period after WW-One a large INFLUX of arabs poured into the areas in question (the indigenous population was comparatively small) and the jews lost 6-million in the Holocaust, of which I can confidently say a lot of them would have been able to flee to palestine if the British had allowed them to do so, permitting the flow of jews and restricting that of the arabs from surrounding areas.... The Jewish character of the entire Palestine Mandate would look different that it does today, if different immigration rules had been put in effect by the mandatory adminstration, rather than the efforts that actually took place in those years to appease the arabs. (including lopping-off 75% of the mandate and giving it to the Hashemite Bedouins).
 
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I don't back them, but I respect them

a_u_p, yes.

I am among the 43% of my fellow Israelis who think that negotiations with Hamas are essential.
 
Just for reference, the 43% I mentioned was taken from a poll conducted recently in Israel asking if the next Israeli government should negotiate with Hamas :

http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/194447
The Peace Index Project at the Center for Peace Research at Tel Aviv University, surveyed a cross-section of Israelis between January 30 and February 1, 2006.
43 percent responded that political negotiations should continue with a Hamas-led government.


(the percentage was relatively high, since they included a qualifier: "if they renounce terrorism and recognize Israel" -- while only 27% say that talks should be held with no preconditions).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/28/MNG1KGV3O81.DTL
  • 40 percent of Israelis feel that since Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people democratically, the future government that it forms is a "legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in every way"
 
webfusion said:
I am among the 43% of my fellow Israelis who think that negotiations with Hamas are essential.
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...and I am among larger percentage who do not think that negotiations with Hamas are essential, especially since they are not changing their tune.

March 4th, 2006

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Islamist militant Hamas, which is forming a Palestinian government, will not recognize Israel despite pressure from Russia to do so during talks in Moscow, a senior leader of the group said on Saturday.

Moussa Abu Marzouk, Hamas's deputy political leader, told Reuters in an interview that recognizing Israel would negate all Palestinian rights. "It means a negation of the Palestinian people and their rights and their property, of Jerusalem and the holy sites, as well as negation of their right of return. Therefore the recognition of Israel is not on the agenda," Abu Marzouk said.
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You can't reward Hamas ideology through negotiation, that would only legitimize Hamas grievances which are A)racist, B)false, C)xenophobic and D) clearly so fundamentalist that they verge on insanity - see: the documented incidents of Hamas sending women and children suicide bombers.

Wednesday, 14 January, 2004, 14:38 GMT

The Islamic militant group Hamas has used a female bomber for the first time in a suicide attack which killed four Israelis on the border with Gaza. Militants identified the bomber as Hamas member Reem Raiyshi, a mother-of-two in her early 20s, from Gaza.

Hamas said it sent a woman because of growing Israeli security "obstacles" facing its male bombers.

"For the first time [Hamas] used a female fighter and not a male fighter and that was a new development in resistance against the enemy," Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin said.

"Resistance will escalate against this enemy [Israel] until they leave our land and homeland."
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(emphasis mine)

So either Hamas does a total 180 turn and renounces their charter:

Hamas Covenant 1988

  • Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
  • In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
  • The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
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...or Hamas fails.

Hamas has one choice to succeed. If they succeed the Palestinians succeed, if they fail the Palestinians fail. Hamas has to transform from a designated terrorist organization recognized as such by the EU, US, Canada and Israel within the next month or Hamas - and the Palestinians - will be ignored by the majority of the civilized world.
 
Z-N, I'm not sure I understand you.

Are you saying that Israel's KADIMA-led government will be justified in sitting with Haniyeh & Co. this summer, but only under the precondition you set, like asking the political wing of HAMAS to makes the 'proper accommodations' you demand of them (such as going through the process of 'amending' their Charter -- see: 1996 PNC meeting in Gaza with President Clinton attending)?

That's a non-starter. Don't even waste your breath.

Sit with these guys, no preconditions. Lay out the overall border/barrier situation, show them the maps, bring their security people up to speed, permit massive infusions of cash, allow the technocrats to start implementing huge infrastructure projects (airport, deep-water port, rail link from Gaza to Hebron), get their industries moving and their markets expanding, and drag back to Ramallah these globe-hopping numbskulls like AbuMarzuk and Ezzat El-Resheq, giving them a real job to do, instead of spouting platitudes and "Israel sucks" rhetoric.

What's HAMAS gonna do? They know the downside...
(see: Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, KIW -- killed in wheelchair).
 
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webfusion said:
Z-N, I'm not sure I understand you.

Are you saying that Israel's KADIMA-led government will be justified in sitting with Haniyeh & Co. this summer, but only under the precondition you set, like asking the political wing of HAMAS to makes the 'proper accommodations' you demand of them
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The precondition I expect out of Hamas is to renounce terrorism. I expect all terrorist groups to renounce terrorism before they are legitimized as some sort of "political" entity. See we went down this road before Web, the PLO renounced terrorism in english while it supported and financed terrorism in arabic. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen again. Hamas must renounce terrorism in english and arabic before they get the option of negotiating. As the old saying goes, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


webfusion said:
Sit with these guys, no preconditions. Lay out the overall border/barrier situation, show them the maps, bring their security people up to speed...
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Hamas is one of the main reasons for the massive security in the first place, to make them aware of security details is akin to giving a known serial bank robber the keys to the bank's vault. ;) In fact if every Palestinian on earth doesn't know by now that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades have to be disarmed before things can move forward they never will.

webfusion said:
...permit massive infusions of cash, allow the technocrats to start implementing huge infrastructure projects (airport, deep-water port, rail link from Gaza to Hebron), get their industries moving and their markets expanding, and drag back to Ramallah these globe-hopping numbskulls like AbuMarzuk and Ezzat El-Resheq, giving them a real job to do, instead of spouting platitudes and "Israel sucks" rhetoric.
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Since Hamas is sworn to Israel's destruction I do not think throwing money at them is such a great idea, call me skeptical as to how that money will be allocated.

webfusion said:
What's HAMAS gonna do? They know the downside...
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Which is why their repeated outright refusals to accept Israel's very existence speaks loud and clear about how insane these fundamentalists really are.

Look Web, if the Palestinian people didn't realize that electing Hamas had serious repercussions on the world stage then they all must be smoking crack. The Palestinian people elected Hamas and either the Palestinian people force Hamas to change or the Palestinian people have to live with who they elected and the consequences of electing a designated terrorist organization.
 
webfusion said:
(the percentage was relatively high, since they included a qualifier: "if they renounce terrorism and recognize Israel" -- while only 27% say that talks should be held with no preconditions).
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With a qualifier like that, who could say no? Of course if they renounce terrorism and recognize Israel they should be negotiated with. Then again, some might say that would be similar to agreeing that when pigs fly, we should call them birds.

webfusion said:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/28/MNG1KGV3O81.DTL
  • 40 percent of Israelis feel that since Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people democratically, the future government that it forms is a "legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in every way"
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I'd agree with that as well, only recognizing that it's a two-edged sword.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades....and now the al-Qaida terror network. That is five different designated terror organizations - recognized as such by the EU, US Canada and Israel.

Way to go guys! That's five designated terror groups all working out of the West Bank and Gaza under the watchful eye of the Palestinian Authority.

A new record! :clap:
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How many do we have in Iraq under the watchful eye and full force of the US military?

Wouldn't want to be applying double-standards, now would we?

It's not like any Al Qaeda have ever been in the US... or God forbid... recieved any type of TRAINING in America.:jaw-dropp
 
Hamas Kidsfun

Mycroft, AFAIK, it is not even translated or mentioned by MEMRI.

The info came from J.Post (Orly Halpern) who mentions in her article that Itamar Marcus, Director of Palestinian Media Watch, brought this site to her attention.
"A man by the name of Nizar Hussein who sits in Lebanon runs this children's Hamas Web site..." said Marcus.

Despicable. Truly despicable, in every sense of the word.
 
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