Who's got the most terrorists? We do!

[a_unique_person]

I thought by "We Do" you meant "Israel", ZN. They are all in territory controlled by Israel. The United Kingdom finally got wise, but it took them over 100 years, I am sure Israelis are a lot smarter and will take the appropriate action in a much shorter timespan.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I thought by "We Do" you meant "Israel", ZN. They are all in territory controlled by Israel. The United Kingdom finally got wise, but it took them over 100 years, I am sure Israelis are a lot smarter and will take the appropriate action in a much shorter timespan.

Gaza is not controlled by Israel it is under full Palestinian control. Parts of the West Bank are not controlled by Israel, they too are under full Palestinian control. But if the events after the withdrawl from Gaza and the election of Hamas teach us anything...

The funny part is that I have ZN on ignore, and didn't even read the OP before making my reply.

Which says alot about how you operate here at JREF. As in,.. didn't read the op, just ran a strawman up the pole to see who would salute.

who kills more bystanders? Palestinians? British? Americans? Australians? I guess it depends on them having sound and moral reasons for killing innocent people eh?

Palestinians are in the way of destiny....silly people.

This is not a competition to see who "kills more bystanders" in order to rehabilitate islamist terror organizations. This is calling a spade a spade and pointing out that in the West Bank and Gaza you have 5, count' em, 5 known and designated islamist terror orgnizations operating freely under the Palestinian Authority.

 

[a_unique_person]

Gaza is not controlled by Israel it is under full Palestinian control. Parts of the West Bank are not controlled by Israel, they too are under full Palestinian control.

You really believe that?

 

[geni]

Designated means the EU, US, Canada and Israel keep lists of foreign terrorist organizations and designate such organizations as t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-t organizations. In the West Bank and Gaza under the areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority you have approximately 4.6 million people and 5 designated & known terrorist organizations operating free from arrest. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that allowing 4 designated islamist terror organizations to run freely around Gaza and the West Bank and to have the fifth designated islamist terror organization ruling the Palestinian Authority is a clear and present danger to the peaceful resolution in the Mideast conflict.

Algeria would suggest otherwise. Over the top terrorist actions rather effectively destoryed the credibilty of the anti-goverment forces.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Algeria would suggest otherwise. Over the top terrorist actions rather effectively destoryed the credibilty of the anti-goverment forces.

Anti-goverment forces in Algeria were not interested in the destruction of France... or Europe for that matter. While the core ideology of Hamas & Islamic Jihad is the destruction of Israel and the core ideology of Al Queda is A) the destruction of Israel, B) the destruction of America and C) clearly the destruction of Europe. All these terror groups are free to operate without arrest under the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority in Gaza and the West Bank..., much like how Al Queda was free to operate without arrest under the Taliban Geni.

You really believe that?

There is not a single jew or a single Israeli or a single IDF soldier in Gaza. Gaza has an open border crossing into Egypt which is controlled by the Palestinians. Since August of last year Israel does not control, occupy or run Gaza. I know that Israel controls it's border between Gaza and Israel - just like Australia controls it's own borders. This control includes who and what is allowed to cross that border just like Australia controls who and what is allowed to cross it's borders.

The West Bank is different, there are areas under full Palestinian control and there are areas under Israeli control. For over a decade the world has been trying to broker a deal whereby the Palestinians can take more control of the West Bank. All of these treaties have been derailed by the same issue, the refusal by the Palestinian Authority to disarm and dismantle the designated terror organizations, namely: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades....and now we can add the al-Qaida terror network to that list.

The only reason Gaza is unoccupied today is because Sharon wanted to do something historic to kickstart the peace process by dismatling settlements, and he couldn't even negotiate that with the Palestinians so he did it unilaterally. The only people who seized this historic moment in Palestinian history were the Palestinian terror groups who took the opportunity to move their Qassam rocket launchers closer to Israel....hell, the Palestinian Authority hasn't even bothered to stop that either.

 

[a_unique_person]

You don't find it strangely co-incidental that the military occupation has produced an unpleasant response?

 

[geni]

Anti-goverment forces in Algeria were not interested in the destruction of France... or Europe for that matter.

The GIA probably was. All the non arab muslim bits anyway. The FIS less so. The GSPC (Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat sorry but I love that name) probably is but their stance against attacking civilians renders them largly ineffective

While the core ideology of Hamas & Islamic Jihad is the destruction of Israel and the core ideology of Al Queda is A) the destruction of Israel, B) the destruction of America and C) clearly the destruction of Europe. All these terror groups are free to operate without arrest under the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority in Gaza and the West Bank..., much like how Al Queda was free to operate without arrest under the Taliban Geni.

Not really. While the US threw a few cruise missiles at afganistan for the most part the risk of being bobed by a neigbour there was pretty low. The taliban also had the support of Pakistan which hammas does not

 

[zenith-nadir]

The GIA probably was. All the non arab muslim bits anyway. The FIS less so. The GSPC (Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat sorry but I love that name) probably is but their stance against attacking civilians renders them largly ineffective

Unfortuantely the historical record shows us that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and the al-Qaida terror network have no stance against attacking civilians.

You don't find it strangely co-incidental that the military occupation has produced an unpleasant response?

The military occupation came about because there was an unpleasant response BEFORE the occupation mate.

In fact there isn't a day that goes by where Israel's "illegitimate" presence on Palestinian lands isn't used to rationalize the terrorism by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Aside from the very obvious moral weakness in any attempt to excuse intentional violence - with malice aforethought - against civilians by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the endlessly-used equation that the occupation = Palestinian terrorism is false for at least two basic reasons:

1. Palestinians committed terrorist acts against Israel before the existence of what is now called the "occupation." (Fatah was formed in 1964, it's first terrorist acts in 1965, launched from Jordan, Lebanon and Egyptian-occupied Gaza.)

2. The Palestinian Authority refuses to even fulfil the basic obligation under several internationally-brokered peace agreements - to disarm and dismantle known terror organizations - that could soon end the so-called "occupation."

 

[a_unique_person]

The military occupation came about because there was an unpleasant response BEFORE the occupation mate.

In fact there isn't a day that goes by where Israel's "illegitimate" presence on Palestinian lands isn't used to rationalize the terrorism by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Aside from the very obvious moral weakness in any attempt to excuse intentional violence - with malice aforethought - against civilians by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.

The endlessly-used equation that the occupation = Palestinian terrorism is false for at least two basic reasons:

1. Palestinians committed terrorist acts against Israel before the existence of what is now called the "occupation." (Fatah was formed in 1964, it's first terrorist acts in 1965, launched from Jordan, Lebanon and Egyptian-occupied Gaza.)

2. The Palestinian Authority refuses to even fulfil the basic obligation under several internationally-brokered peace agreements - to disarm and dismantle known terror organizations - that could soon end the so-called "occupation."

Look, I think the original act of barbarity against the Jews by the Romans set in train a whole series of events that Jews suffered that were totally unwarranted, culminating in the barbarity of the Holocaust.

(Well, you could take into account Joshua, but everyone was into conquest and killing back then, it was hardly unique to Jews).

I was listening to the radio a few months ago, and they had an interview with the editor of the Jewish newspaper in Australia. When it first started, it was decidedly anti-zionist. It's most recent controversy was whether or not it should have covered a Jewish gay pride event.

Israel was always a controversial project, from the start, including the Jewish community. Not because( imho), it was wrong for Jews to want Israel to magically materialise again, but because it was dubious if the concept would work, if it was right to try to recreat it.

Here we are, 60 years later, and it is still not a concept that is working, and in another 40 years, well, who knows. But it's not just Israelis who are suffering, it's people who are under their power.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here we are, 60 years later, and it is still not a concept that is working, and in another 40 years, well, who knows. But it's not just Israelis who are suffering, it's people who are under their power.

Time to switch gears a_u_p. I think after 9-11, Bali, Madrid, London, Baghdad, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Amman, Beirut, Athens, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Aden, Riyadh, Beslan, Kabul, Karachi, etc... Israel isn't "the problem", Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is "the problem".

Hence my position that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and now the al-Qaida terror network running around free and clear in Gaza and the West Bank is a bad bad thing.

 

[geni]

Unfortuantely the historical record shows us that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and the al-Qaida terror network have no stance against attacking civilians.

Neither did the GIA. Didn't work out to well for them in the long run.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't believe the PA will "reach the stage of capturing" anyone from al Qaeda unless and until the Israelis dump the AQ's body on Abbas's doorstep, and maybe not even then.

They would put him in jail, but he would then escape in a popular uprising.

 

[a_unique_person]

Time to switch gears a_u_p. I think after 9-11, Bali, Madrid, London, Baghdad, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Amman, Beirut, Athens, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Aden, Riyadh, Beslan, Kabul, Karachi, etc... Israel isn't "the problem", Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is "the problem".

Hence my position that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Ahmed Abu el-Rish Brigades, the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and now the al-Qaida terror network running around free and clear in Gaza and the West Bank is a bad bad thing.

If Oslo had been given a real chance, that is, israel had said, "and we'll throw in a real set stainless steel steak knives", I think it could have worked. It was always going to be problematic, but it might have worked. There were plenty of Palestinians making good money working in Israel, they were buying TVs and washing machines. Now, that is over. What is there on offer?

 

[Ed]

who kills more bystanders? Palestinians? British? Americans? Australians? I guess it depends on them having sound and moral reasons for killing innocent people eh?

Palestinians are in the way of destiny....silly people.

As a rule of thumb it is safe to say that nobody murders like Moslems.

 

[a_unique_person]

As a rule of thumb it is safe to say that nobody murders like Moslems.

You really do amaze me some times.

 

[Ed]

You really do amaze me some times.

Who do you think has murdered the most moslems over the past decade?

 

[a_unique_person]

Who do you think has murdered the most moslems over the past decade?

That's right, Cherry Pickin at it's finest.

 

[zenith-nadir]

If Oslo had been given a real chance.....

Ok. Let's stop right there and see what happend after Arafat signed the Oslo Accords.

As you can see "a real set stainless steel steak knives" was not the issue that sunk Oslo but the issue that sunk Oslo was a huge spike in Palestinian terror attacks. These Palestinian terror attacks outnumbered the amount of Palestinian terror attacks in the previous 15 years combined.

So once again we are confronted with the real issue; Islamic fundamentalist terrorism hiding conveniently behind the banner of Palestinian Nationalism.

[edited to add]

Five Kassam rockets were fired again today from Gaza to Israel - and one of them caused damage to what is called a "strategic installation" south of Ashkelon.

This is what the Palestinian Authority is obligated to stop under several internationally-brokered treaties. Yet it never stops.

 

[a_unique_person]

in your opinion. you are only looking at the actions of one side. And, once again, you ignore that, after the expected reaction of extremists to kill the deal, terrorist deaths were down. The same thing happened with the peace deal with the IRA. England is now safer fromIRA attacks than it ever was.

The rise of fundamentalist Islamism is a 'bad thing', but it was not always thus.

 

[zenith-nadir]

in your opinion. you are only looking at the actions of one side.

If I make a deal with the Palestinians to disarm and dismantle designated Palestinian terror groups - see: Oslo - then yes, I am looking at the actions of one side.

And, once again, you ignore that, after the expected reaction of extremists to kill the deal, terrorist deaths were down.

Terrorism by Palestinian extremists to kill the deal is why Oslo failed. Whether it was expected or not is moot. The PA has categorically failed to fulfill its primary obligation – repeated in every agreement it signed – to disarm and dismantle the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure. Since there has been no elicit “Palestinian” reciprocity and cooperation to disarm and dismantle the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure there has been no resolution to the mideast conflict. Period, end of story.

Events have become so ludicrous that part of the “Palestinian” terrorist infrastructure that was supposed to be dismantled - Hamas - now runs the Palestinian Authority.