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White Fragility

d4m10n said:
"Worthiness" is relative to some given set of (inter)subjective values. As someone who has to work as part of a team, I find diligent workers to be more worthy than slackers, in the specific context of working on our team. I don't for a moment believe this is a uniquely "white" or American phenomenon, having worked with people in Tokyo.
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The totality of the infographic is what is meant to represent "whiteness". It doesn't follow that every individual attribute is exclusive.
 
d4m10n said:
"Worthiness" is relative to some given set of (inter)subjective values and goals. As someone who has to work as part of a team, I find diligent workers to be more worthy than slackers, in the specific context of working on our team. I don't for a moment believe this is a uniquely "white" or American phenomenon, having worked with people in Tokyo.
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It seems most of the western world looks down on american and japanese assessment of diligent work.

To paraphrase the old joke of the European boss talking to an American colleague, "go home and have sex with your wife before I do."
 
Checkmite said:
The totality of the infographic is what is meant to represent "whiteness". It doesn't follow that every individual attribute is exclusive.
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I'm having a hard time understanding how things like objectivity and hard work are features of whiteness.

I've been living in China for 15 years and those things are both highly valued here, for instance.
 
Roboramma said:
I'm having a hard time understanding how things like objectivity and hard work are features of whiteness.

I've been living in China for 15 years and those things are both highly valued here, for instance.
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I agree.

Worse, it might lead one to conclude the opposite are features of colored-ness (is that a word?) or non-whiteness. :boggled:
 
Just for reference, there is no such thing as white culture, black culture, or Asian culture. One can still model these things statistically, just as one can model bald culture, tone-deaf culture, or parks-in-the-wrong-space culture. They are all no more or less meaningful.

Race is irrelevant, and the more people who realize that, the better. Then we could all just get on with our lives.
 
eerok said:
Just for reference, there is no such thing as white culture, black culture, or Asian culture. One can still model these things statistically, just as one can model bald culture, tone-deaf culture, or parks-in-the-wrong-space culture. They are all no more or less meaningful.

Race is irrelevant, and the more people who realize that, the better. Then we could all just get on with our lives.
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Attempts at that have been going on for quite some time. At some point the priority shifted from attempts to make race irrelavent to attempts to make race the only thing that is relavent.
 
Distracted1 said:
Attempts at that have been going on for quite some time. At some point the priority shifted from attempts to make race irrelavent to attempts to make race the only thing that is relavent.
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One can only hope that the facts hold true eventually.
 
Distracted1 said:
The totality.
Which attributes can be removed while still representing whiteness?
If I did not have my own room as a child, am I no longer able to claim my white privledge?
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I don't think that's what's being alleged, and I don't think the list was intended to be used as a comprehensive and rote "checklist". I think it's more the case that if you're an adult, the more and more you diverge from this set of "ideals", the more at risk you become of being judged as "inferior" or "un-American".

And again, the main argument isn't that "all white people are like this", "have to be like this", "shouldn't be like this", or whatever other bizarre narratives that people are concocting in order to prove it "wrong". The argument is that taken together these collective generalized ideals which are very often promoted, essentially, as the "correct way to American", are based primary on white European cultural norms. That's not to say that individual minorities "never have any of these attributes", or "shouldn't have these attributes", or that people of other countries and cultures don't have some of them too. It IS to say that minority groups in their own cultural values and priorities can and sometimes do diverge substantially from this collective set of ideals, and are often pressured to change and conform more closely to it in order to alleviate the risk of being "un-American" or "failing to assimilate". These folks are pressured to be "more American" rhetorically, but in practical terms they're being pressured to be "more like white people".
 
Checkmite said:
I don't think that's what's being alleged, and I don't think the list was intended to be used as a comprehensive and rote "checklist". I think it's more the case that if you're an adult, the more and more you diverge from this set of "ideals", the more at risk you become of being judged as "inferior" or "un-American".

And again, the main argument isn't that "all white people are like this", "have to be like this", "shouldn't be like this", or whatever other bizarre narratives that people are concocting in order to prove it "wrong". The argument is that taken together these collective generalized ideals which are very often promoted, essentially, as the "correct way to American", are based primary on white European cultural norms. That's not to say that individual minorities "never have any of these attributes", or "shouldn't have these attributes", or that people of other countries and cultures don't have some of them too. It IS to say that minority groups in their own cultural values and priorities can and sometimes do diverge substantially from this collective set of ideals, and are often pressured to change and conform more closely to it in order to alleviate the risk of being "un-American" or "failing to assimilate". These folks are pressured to be "more American" rhetorically, but in practical terms they're being pressured to be "more like white people".
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I see.
A description of how the majority of Americans see their culture then?
 
Checkmite said:
It IS to say that minority groups in their own cultural values and priorities can and sometimes do diverge substantially from this collective set of ideals, and are often pressured to change and conform more closely to it in order to alleviate the risk of being "un-American" or "failing to assimilate". These folks are pressured to be "more American" rhetorically, but in practical terms they're being pressured to be "more like white people".
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This preposition seems to lead to very problematic conclusions.

You acknowledge divergence between various cultures. Let's pretend that "green culture" values delayed gratification less than "white culture". Should we expect Greens and whites to have equivalent net worths? Should we expect Greens and whites to have the same college graduation rates? Wouldn't any focus on fixing a discrepancy in Green-white net worth/college attainment be a form of pushing white value on Greens?

I am rather repelled by the idea of attributing a discrepency in racial outcomes to cultural differences associated with races, so I'd love for someone to tell me what I'm missing.
 
Checkmite said:
Having read the website, the following becomes plain: the list is a list of what constitutes "white racial identity"; the actual complaint is that the attributes on the list are often reinterpreted or redefined as "correct American-ness" rather than just "whiteness"; and what needs to be "overcome" is the tendency to see people who don't fit the list of attributes as "inferior or abnormal". Nowhere on the website is it suggested that white people (or indeed anyone else) ought eliminate these attributes in themselves.
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Delaying gratification constitutes white racial identity? Seems to me it constitutes the identity of anyone who has goals. Plus it seems that instant gratification is more the American ethos these days.
 
Checkmite said:
I don't think that's what's being alleged, and I don't think the list was intended to be used as a comprehensive and rote "checklist". I think it's more the case that if you're an adult, the more and more you diverge from this set of "ideals", the more at risk you become of being judged as "inferior" or "un-American".

And again, the main argument isn't that "all white people are like this", "have to be like this", "shouldn't be like this", or whatever other bizarre narratives that people are concocting in order to prove it "wrong". The argument is that taken together these collective generalized ideals which are very often promoted, essentially, as the "correct way to American", are based primary on white European cultural norms. That's not to say that individual minorities "never have any of these attributes", or "shouldn't have these attributes", or that people of other countries and cultures don't have some of them too. It IS to say that minority groups in their own cultural values and priorities can and sometimes do diverge substantially from this collective set of ideals, and are often pressured to change and conform more closely to it in order to alleviate the risk of being "un-American" or "failing to assimilate". These folks are pressured to be "more American" rhetorically, but in practical terms they're being pressured to be "more like white people".
Click to expand...

So, for example, the pressure to be punctual is alienating certain American minority groups from their cultural values?
 
Roboramma said:
I'm having a hard time understanding how things like objectivity and hard work are features of whiteness.

I've been living in China for 15 years and those things are both highly valued here, for instance.
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Asians are white now. Didn't you get the memo?
 
Checkmite said:
And again, the main argument isn't that "all white people are like this", "have to be like this", "shouldn't be like this", or whatever other bizarre narratives that people are concocting in order to prove it "wrong". The argument is that taken together these collective generalized ideals which are very often promoted, essentially, as the "correct way to American", are based primary on white European cultural norms. That's not to say that individual minorities "never have any of these attributes", or "shouldn't have these attributes", or that people of other countries and cultures don't have some of them too.
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I think you give them too much credit. I think the subliminal message is exactly that: if you're a minority and you adopt these values, you're giving in to the white majority.

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Beeyon said:
You acknowledge divergence between various cultures. Let's pretend that "green culture" values delayed gratification less than "white culture". Should we expect Greens and whites to have equivalent net worths? Should we expect Greens and whites to have the same college graduation rates? Wouldn't any focus on fixing a discrepancy in Green-white net worth/college attainment be a form of pushing white value on Greens?
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That is exactly what is being rejected. The idea is that White shouldn't have to change its culture, but should get the same outcomes.



Obviously a Green who is in to immediate gratification will be at a major disadvantage now, unless they are a member of another special class that the elect view as inferior and choose to boost.
 
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Distracted1 said:
The totality.
Which attributes can be removed while still representing whiteness?
If I did not have my own room as a child, am I no longer able to claim my white privledge?
Click to expand...
You are thinking about this as an individual, which is a sign of whiteness. Arguing against this is a sign of white fragility and is to be expected.
 
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