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When Is Rape Rape?

What if a woman says "I'm never having sex with you", then, they get drunk and end up having sex? Is that rape?
 
superfreddy said:
What if a woman says "I'm never having sex with you", then, they get drunk and end up having sex? Is that rape?
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Not if it's not with you! :D

Seriously though, it would depend upon how drunk they got and how serious they were about not having sex with you.
 
They just had a segment on NPR's All Things Considered on this. Seems the Obama administration has jumped on board the "rape on campus" bandwagon and are touting the "One in five" statistic insofar as "sexual assaults".

The report indicated that firm figures may be hard to come by, and that the definition of "sexual assault" may differ considerably from "rape" and in some cases may indicate regrets afterwards rather than an actual coercive act.
I can only speak with any authority about the institution that I've worked at for more than 30 years. If that figure, one in five, is to be accurate, then sexual assault must not only be "underreported" but rather "unreported".
Even though we have a live-on-campus population of some thousands, about half of which are female, we have had but a handful of such incidents reported in, for a handy figure, the last 10 years.
By the metric commonly quoted, at least hundreds of such assaults per year would be occurring, and even with a low reporting rate (15% is commonly mentioned) this would mean dozens of reports per year.
But again, we've had only a few.
 
In the real world, a feminist is a woman who doesn't like to be told what to do unless she's completely naked.
 
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Crossbow said:
I have heard quite a few things over the years, but this is the first time that I ever heard of 'consentual rape'.
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I've heard it from a former coworker that enjoyed BDSM, only he was the one that wanted to get raped.
 
Morrigan said:
So OP had a conversation with a stupid and crazy woman, and somehow he's confused about what rape is? Meh.
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No, I have a clear idea what rape is. I was wondering if anyone had any idea what the woman was going on about.

Belz... said:
When it's non-consensual at any moment of the act.
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Even after the fact, the next day?
 
superfreddy said:
What if a woman says "I'm never having sex with you", then, they get drunk and end up having sex? Is that rape?
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That's why I don't 100% agree with "If she's drunk, it's rape" mentality. What if she was someone you've been dating for a while now and she has given you every indication that she is willing to have sex with you while sober but the first time you two do it it happens whilst she was drunk? Could that honestly be called rape? In my opinion it isn't.
 
Mudcat said:
That's why I don't 100% agree with "If she's drunk, it's rape" mentality. What if she was someone you've been dating for a while now and she has given you every indication that she is willing to have sex with you while sober but the first time you two do it it happens whilst she was drunk? Could that honestly be called rape? In my opinion it isn't.
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Wasn't there a thread about some guy who got in a bit of trouble because his girlfriend wanted him to choke her unconscious and then have sex with her? My recollection was that her legal consent didn't extend past the point where she was no longer capable of withdrawing it.
 
Mudcat said:
That's why I don't 100% agree with "If she's drunk, it's rape" mentality.
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Ignoring the obviously nonsensical notion that only women can be raped (and the related nonsensical notion that only men rape), I dismiss the "If one party is drunk, it's rape" argument on the grounds of personal experience.

At an SCA event, I got drunk with some friends. Then back at camp, my wife and I made love. By the "logic" of some posters here and some commenters on rape, my wife raped me--despite the fact that as far as I'm concerned, it was one of the best days I had that year. I mean, I drank with good friends and got laid; what's not to enjoy? The notion that someone can do something to me which I enjoy and actively encourage and in which I was a willing participant at the time, but it's still rape, is such utter nonsense that the person arguing such a position does not deserve to be taken seriously in further discussions on this topic.

That's not to downplay the role inebriation plays in many rapes. However, the notion that "drunk sex=rape" is a mental short-cut that ignores so many contradictions that it does more to downplay and deminish the impact of rape than it does to raise awareness or prevent it or whatever other justification is used.

As far as the OP goes, it's obvious nonsense is anyone thinks about it for five minutes. If she's in a bath and gives you a look, and makes the first move, but no one says a word, by the argument paraphrased in the OP it's rape. Any sane person can see that it's not. There ARE non-verbal cues--the idea that both parties have to verbally consent ignores pretty much everything we know about human interactions.

Then there's the tiny little problem of how anyone outside the pair (ever notice how it's always two people? what about polys?) knows what was said. Unless you have an impartial observer, it's he said/she said, quite literally. I can guess that the "feminist" in the OP would argue that "she said" is the trump card, but if we have any interest in justice we can't simply assume that. We need to examine the evidence--and there are libraries written on the issues involved in figuring out the truth when the evidence is what the two groups say happened.

I've heard it from a former coworker that enjoyed BDSM, only he was the one that wanted to get raped.
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It's extremely common. The Dom(me)/sub dynamic, if such exists in the relationship, can fit pretty much any combination of male, female, cis-, and transgendered that you care to pick. I will say that there I DO beleive the participants need to verbally consent--there are risks involved, and everyone needs to understand them. There's also often what's called aftercare, during which time you basically deal with the intense emotional and physiological aftermath of a scene. Not doing proper aftercare isn't rape, but it can be abuse and can be very traumatic to those involved (not just the sub).

Dissolution said:
I'm not sure that I agree with this.
Surely the other participant has to be made aware of the lack of consent and continue regardless?
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Both parties need to be aware of withdraw of consent, certainly. If you don't tell the other person, there can be no reasonable expectation that they know (and again, not all cues are verbal--if you punch me in the face and attempt to flee, I obviously should be able to get the picture). And I certainly don't think you can be declared a rapist for what you do prior to the withdraw of consent (in regards to normal activities, anyway; if you do something seriously messed-up like cut the person with a knife without talking it over and they object to it, for example, it may be justifiable to charge you with SOMETHING). And withdraw of consent isn't necessarily all or nothing. One party may say they do not wish to do some particular thing, but they wish to continue having sex. To continue doing that thing is at best extremely poor taste, and at worst rape (depending on what that thing is).

Crossbow said:
I have heard quite a few things over the years, but this is the first time that I ever heard of 'consentual rape'.
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A more typical term is "consentual non-consent"--basically, the person agrees to wave their right to withdraw consent, in a very specific set of conditions, in order to act out a fantasy. Usually these involve some pretty serious negotiations, and typically these situations happen between people who know each other very well. If you're still at the "We need a safe word" stage, you're not ready for consentual non-consent (not that safe words are bad; it's just that if you think they are the be-all, end-all of BDSM safety you're too ignorant of BDSM to understand what you're consenting to).
 
Mudcat said:
Oh by the way, her response to "Is this rape?" was yes. So even after consenting to sex, rape is rape if the woman says it's rape.

Yeah, that promotes social justice alright. :rolleyes:

Makes me wonder just what the hell they're teaching in that class.
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I haven't read through the thread yet, but I've run across people on the internet (not in RL, but it doesn't come up in RL) that hold this opinion. I've been called a rape apologist for suggesting that if the women says yes, even if she's drunk, she still has an obligation to say 'no' before calling it rape. Assuming she can actually speak of course. If she's unable to speak or unconscious, it's rape.

I've also been called a rape apologist for thinking that it's a good idea to avoid behaviors that would tend to make you look an 'easy' victim.

I'm frankly a bit gobsmacked by the puritanism of some feminists, but I've finally come to the conclusion that every generation has the right to work out the details of what is acceptable male/female interactions for themselves. When I grew up, the law didn't believe a man could rape his own wife. Now, even after taking marriage vows, the woman's right to say 'no' is accepted and validated in our society. I think we are moving in the right direction. Allowing retroactive retraction of consent is over the line for most members of our society, so I don't think that is a serious concern for young men. I hope not. I have a teen-age son.
 
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Mudcat said:
This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:
You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​
What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?
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It's rape rape when Polanski does it.
 
Mudcat said:
According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.
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My response to this is to consider the following possibilities...

If the woman initiates the encounter, and takes the dominant role throughout, and there's nothing stopping her from walking out the door any time she wants to, it's still rape because the guy never asked her if she wanted to have sex with him, and so she never answered "yes"?

If the guy does ask her if she wants to have sex with him, and if instead of saying "yes" she drags him to the bedroom and pushes him onto the bed and things continue from there without further conversation, it still counts as rape because she didn't say "yes"?
 
Beth said:
I haven't read through the thread yet, but I've run across people on the internet (not in RL, but it doesn't come up in RL) that hold this opinion.
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It isn't something that typically comes up in every day conversation for me, either. It was a social justice fair and she was manning a display that dealt with women's rights and rape and she asked for my opinion. What was I supposed to do, talk about the weather?
 
Dinwar said:
A more typical term is "consentual non-consent"--basically, the person agrees to wave their right to withdraw consent, in a very specific set of conditions, in order to act out a fantasy. Usually these involve some pretty serious negotiations, and typically these situations happen between people who know each other very well. If you're still at the "We need a safe word" stage, you're not ready for consentual non-consent (not that safe words are bad; it's just that if you think they are the be-all, end-all of BDSM safety you're too ignorant of BDSM to understand what you're consenting to).
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Uh, yeah. I'd keep the safe word around if I were you. Legally speaking, it isn't possible to "waive your right to withdraw consent."
 
colander said:
Uh, yeah. I'd keep the safe word around if I were you. Legally speaking, it isn't possible to "waive your right to withdraw consent."
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I'm not in the BDSM crowd, but if you're already at the point that you and your partner are playing out rape fantasies then y'all probably already have that covered.
 
Mudcat said:
I'm not in the BDSM crowd, but if you're already at the point that you and your partner are playing out rape fantasies then y'all probably already have that covered.
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Again, there is nothing magical about BD/SM rapeplay that makes it possible to vacate in advance one's legal right to withdraw sexual consent. Anyone who does not understand this runs a very real risk of breaking the law.
 
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