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When Is Rape Rape?

A variety of things, a number of which Professor Yaffle has suggested and one that you pointed out.

Consent doesn't have to be verbal and a variety of conditions (intoxication, age, mental capacity, threats, etc.) can render it moot.
Things like a large power differential are important, too.

I have no problem with drawing the line at consent. If one person didn't consent and the other had sex with them anyway, it's rape. When I was much younger, I didn't think the consent under duress counted as rape. It might be sleazy of a manager to demand sex with an employee, but I didn't think it was rape.

I think this case is so borderline, I'd like to hear other people comment on it. I think this quote encapsulates the issue for me.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/3/31/Harvard-sexual-assault/
“Are you only going to make me hard, or are you going to make me come?” he said in a demanding tone.

It did not sound like a question. I obeyed.

She never cried out and never told him no. She never said yes either. She was terrified by his tone of voice and actions. When I was 20 I would not have considered this rape. But when I was 21, I was attacked. I was held up against a brick wall and told to be nice. People were in earshot who knew me and would have come to my rescue if I had yelled. But I was so scared my throat constricted and I couldn't utter a sound. It would be some time before I could speak coherently again.

Certainly this young woman has suffered as every victim of non-consensual sexual assault suffers. But I can understand why the university didn't want to prosecute. What I don't understand why they couldn't have had a talk with the young man involved and made clear to him that his behavior wasn't acceptable and why. As it is, he's done this poor girl a great wrong and has not received the feedback he needs to alter his behavior. This situation clearly needs to change.

I like to hear what options there are for disciplining this young man other than charging him with rape in a court of law. What do you think would be an appropriate consequence for such behavior?
 
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This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:

You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​

What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?

You are aware the scenario you just described meets the criterion for your interlocutor to consider the hypothetical intercourse "not rape", right?

Specifically, the woman in the sexual encounter "said yes".
 
Uh, yeah. I'd keep the safe word around if I were you. Legally speaking, it isn't possible to "waive your right to withdraw consent."

I was wondering who'd say the frist bit--it's a very common misconception. That said, you really need to consider the practical side of things here. How, precisely, will a safe word help if you can't speak? Remember, gags are extremely common toys in BDSM. Smothering (ie, having your face covered by something, usually a body part) is also common. In either case you're not exactly going to be able to say a safe word, or at least not say one in such a way that someone else can hear it or comprehend it. And that's not the only situation. BDSM is intense, and can leave you breathless, quite literally. You can have trouble speaking, for various reasons, without having something in your mouth (sensation play doesn't have to be painful; if someone ties you down and tickles you for a while, it can be hard to say anything, for example). And what if the other person isn't in the room? The misconception that safe words are the only thing you need is very, very dangerous.

Safe words are imporatnt, yes. However, it's niave to think they are sufficient. Situations can arise where safe words are not possible. If you know of no other ways to convey that your limits have been crossed, you have no business considering consentual nonconsent. You need to think through what the scene will require, and the necessary safety precautions, in a coldly rational manner that's rather alien to the way most people consider sex. When engaging in BDSM one needs to have a system for dealing with problems (it's risky, after all)--and the single most important thing is communication. Not just safe words, but having a relationship with each other that allows you to let your partner know what you're thinking/feeling even if you can't speak.

As for the legality, it's irrelevant. This simply isn't a matter of law. In practical terms, one CAN waive one's right to withdraw consent--it happens more often than you think. If you wish to press charges, feel free to find someone willing to press charges. In most cases I've encountered, the person who withdrew consent considered the event a positive thing. And again, if someone says "This happened to me, and it was great! We're doing it again next week!" I think that calling it rape is an insult to those who are actually victims of rape.

Anyone who does not understand this runs a very real risk of breaking the law.
You apparently completely ignored every part of my comment where I stressed the importance of pre-scene discussion. If you simply jump the other person without discussing it, yeah, it's rape. If you work out the details for weeks prior to it, not so much--at that point, nine times out of ten you are literally asking for it (and I mean explicitely, often in the form "Okay, so here's how I imagine my rape...").

Beth said:
What do you think would be an appropriate consequence for such behavior?
It certainly wouldn't be inappropriate to call what happened rape--if he had to say "Be nice" in that manner, he's obviously accepting that his actions are wrong. He KNEW you didn't consent.

As for the professor example, there's something called the "reasonable man standard" or "reasonable person standard", depending on when the statue you're reading was written. Basically, it means that we can assume a reasonable person, raised in our society, would be able to interpret certain cues. Merely wearing tight tops and short skirts isn't tacite consent, and no reasonable person would consider it such. If you walk in wearing a teddy and a smile, yeah, that's different--at the very least, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to misinterpret the situation. But if the student is wearing normal clothing, and doing normal student things (ie, not sitting on his lap and dry-humping him, stuff like that), no reasonable person would assume that she was trying to convince him to sleep with her. Merely saying what he said is sexual assualt. Forcing her to act on it is clearly wrong; whether we want to call it rape or not is irrelevant to me, the important part is that he violated her rights.

Non-legal consequences? I'd be happy to see him starving in the street, with no business willing to sell him anything and his career completely ruined. Remember, it's not libel or slander if it's true. Personally I'd be happy with castration via blunt instrument, but I acknowledge that vigelanty justice has some serious problems. Still, completely cutting him out of your life, and making sure everyone else you know does the same, is entirely appropriate, as is ruining his professional life. The only thing to worry about is making sure you don't sacrifice your own life to destroy his.
 
You are aware the scenario you just described meets the criterion for your interlocutor to consider the hypothetical intercourse "not rape", right?

Specifically, the woman in the sexual encounter "said yes".

I do know that, but her response was that if the woman says it's rape, it's rape regardless of consent before or during the act. At that point, I knew her world view was hopelessly warped and I dropped the debate.
 
I do know that, but her response was that if the woman says it's rape, it's rape regardless of consent before or during the act. At that point, I knew her world view was hopelessly warped and I dropped the debate.

Perhaps she was stuffed with staw.
 
Really dude? Just... really...?



The point was that, since she is impervious to logic and reason, to present a reductio ad absurdum to show why her basic axiom is false ...

So, to that end ... both guys? Both weasels*? Both ambi-sexual snails? Both non-sexual ewoks?

* Do not Google the sexual practices of weasels, which include cub-rape and latent impregnation and the biting off of male offspring genitalia ... you have been warned! :eek:
 
Perhaps she was stuffed with staw.

I've heard pretty much the same arguments made by living, breathing people.

It's rather telling that you're so willing to dismiss the existence of the argument, rather than addressing the fact that some people hold bat-crap crazy viewpoints. Perhaps you're not a true Scottsman? ;)
 
* Do not Google the sexual practices of weasels, which include cub-rape and latent impregnation and the biting off of male offspring genitalia ... you have been warned! :eek:

If rape bothers you, the best advice is to never study sexuality in animals period. What we consider rape other species tend to view as a good time. Ducks, anglerfish, lions, insects....and that's not getting into parasites...
 
If rape bothers you, the best advice is to never study sexuality in animals humans period. What we consider rape other species humans tend to view as a good time. [snip]


Whoosh!

That is the point going over your head ... :rolleyes:
 
Whoosh!

That is the point going over your head ... :rolleyes:

Huh?

I was making something of a bad joke about reproductive habits of animals, and was clearly just commenting on that part of your statement. I wasn't commenting on the whole thing. The "you" in my post was intended to be more generic, not directed at you personally. Blame English for that; it would have been perfectly obvious in French.

Then again, I've learned that this is a topic where things like logic, common sense, and acknowledgement of common linguistic practices aren't common. :rolleyes:
 
It certainly wouldn't be inappropriate to call what happened rape--if he had to say "Be nice" in that manner, he's obviously accepting that his actions are wrong. He KNEW you didn't consent.
Thank you for the comment. Other than the inability to speak, there wasn't much else similar about my experience. It does happen, more often that some men realize.

Still, completely cutting him out of your life, and making sure everyone else you know does the same, is entirely appropriate, as is ruining his professional life. The only thing to worry about is making sure you don't sacrifice your own life to destroy his.

Yes, this seems sensible. I think it must be particularly stressful when the victim must remain in association with the person. Sometimes it may require choosing whether or not to cut other people you care about out of your life.
 
I was wondering who'd say the frist bit--it's a very common misconception. That said, you really need to consider the practical side of things here. How, precisely, will a safe word help if you can't speak? Remember, gags are extremely common toys in BDSM. Smothering (ie, having your face covered by something, usually a body part) is also common. In either case you're not exactly going to be able to say a safe word, or at least not say one in such a way that someone else can hear it or comprehend it. And that's not the only situation. BDSM is intense, and can leave you breathless, quite literally. You can have trouble speaking, for various reasons, without having something in your mouth (sensation play doesn't have to be painful; if someone ties you down and tickles you for a while, it can be hard to say anything, for example). And what if the other person isn't in the room? The misconception that safe words are the only thing you need is very, very dangerous.

Who said anything about safe words being sufficient? They are not, but they are certainly necessary.

Safe words are imporatnt, yes. However, it's niave to think they are sufficient. Situations can arise where safe words are not possible. If you know of no other ways to convey that your limits have been crossed, you have no business considering consentual nonconsent. You need to think through what the scene will require, and the necessary safety precautions, in a coldly rational manner that's rather alien to the way most people consider sex. When engaging in BDSM one needs to have a system for dealing with problems (it's risky, after all)--and the single most important thing is communication. Not just safe words, but having a relationship with each other that allows you to let your partner know what you're thinking/feeling even if you can't speak.

As for the legality, it's irrelevant. This simply isn't a matter of law.

Of course it is.

In practical terms, one CAN waive one's right to withdraw consent--it happens more often than you think. If you wish to press charges, feel free to find someone willing to press charges. In most cases I've encountered, the person who withdrew consent considered the event a positive thing.

Most rounds of Russian Roulette don't end in anyone getting shot, either. This does not make playing it a good idea.

And again, if someone says "This happened to me, and it was great! We're doing it again next week!" I think that calling it rape is an insult to those who are actually victims of rape.

You apparently completely ignored every part of my comment where I stressed the importance of pre-scene discussion. If you simply jump the other person without discussing it, yeah, it's rape. If you work out the details for weeks prior to it, not so much--at that point, nine times out of ten you are literally asking for it (and I mean explicitely, often in the form "Okay, so here's how I imagine my rape...").

I ignored that stuff because it doesn't matter. You can't get someone to legally agree to be raped any more than you can get them to agree to be legally murdered. I don't care if you draw up a contract and get it notarized on national television in front of the president. Nothing you agree to ahead of time can do anything to take away the inalienable legal right to withdraw consent once the action has started. The end.
 
I've heard pretty much the same arguments made by living, breathing people.

It's rather telling that you're so willing to dismiss the existence of the argument, rather than addressing the fact that some people hold bat-crap crazy viewpoints. Perhaps you're not a true Scottsman? ;)

I'm sorry but, from where I stand, All Sex Is Rape Feminist and Morning After Girl (and the the rest of The League of Extraordinary Misandrists) seem to only exist in as anecdotal and hypothetical entities used to invalidate legal constructions because the questionability of consent under the influence and the woman's preogative to withdraw consent make sex under the influence legally problematic.

By the way, you reference to No True Scottsman is–how shall I say–very Humes fork: when confronted with the diversity of opinion, you claim that I have said that someone is not a True <insert member of group>, when allI have done is question the influence of a particular view point on the over-all debate.
 
I've heard pretty much the same arguments made by living, breathing people.

It's rather telling that you're so willing to dismiss the existence of the argument, rather than addressing the fact that some people hold bat-crap crazy viewpoints. Perhaps you're not a true Scottsman? ;)

Considering some of the crazy things I've heard come out of people's mouths, it surprises me that anything is capable of surprising me anymore. Some of it, believe it or not, is even more bizarre than "Rape is rape when the woman calls it rape." That anyone claims that I need to make this stuff up is one of those more bizarre things, because trust me when I say Louisville is full of some crazy personalities.
 
Considering some of the crazy things I've heard come out of people's mouths, it surprises me that anything is capable of surprising me anymore. Some of it, believe it or not, is even more bizarre than "Rape is rape when the woman calls it rape." That anyone claims that I need to make this stuff up is one of those more bizarre things, because trust me when I say Louisville is full of some crazy personalities.

But how does choosing the craziest of the crazy to represent a position you oppose?

Chances are most of your interlocutors are not going to leap on such a position as deeply flawed. Moreover, if you are concerned about the various positions that have significant influence on legal policy on rape–especially in a country legal policy discourse appears to focus on the exact opposite of the position you objected to, choosing a position that actually appears to have influence would be much more relevant to the discussion.
 
I
I think this case is so borderline, I'd like to hear other people comment on it. I think this quote encapsulates the issue for me.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/3/31/Harvard-sexual-assault/


She never cried out and never told him no. She never said yes either. She was terrified by his tone of voice and actions. When I was 20 I would not have considered this rape. [...]

I like to hear what options there are for disciplining this young man other than charging him with rape in a court of law. What do you think would be an appropriate consequence for such behavior?
Why should there be "another option"? What he did was rape and he should have been charged with rape. I don't see anything borderline whatsoever in this case, assuming it happened as the victim described.
 
Why should there be "another option"? What he did was rape and he should have been charged with rape. I don't see anything borderline whatsoever in this case, assuming it happened as the victim described.

Indeed. I draw your attention to the link I posted earlier about submission not being equal to consent. If the victim's account is accurate, the perpetrator did not take adequate steps to ensure that the victim consented. Whether a prosecution would succeed is another matter of course, but purely on the description given, this is rape.
 
Maybe I'm missing something. But your scenario is specifically covered in the girls response to you in your conversation. Bolded the important words. In other words, it's not rape.

Buyers remorse? Well that's a different can of worms and I have no meaningful things to say about that difficult circumstance.

I think Mudcat's point is that even if the woman says "yes," she still had the power to potentially destroy the man's life by saying she didn't say it.

I would say, though, that the basic premise - that of a specifically granted "yes" - is part of the problem. People have sex all the time in which no party explicitly requests or grants (it is, of course, a highly sexist assumption that the man must always ask and only the woman can grant) it.
 
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