What you could do better than god

[Beelzebuddy]

There are people in this world who not only have your hubris but also the means to modify the Human genome, and their power will only get greater over time. Soon they may have the ability to literally 'play God' to an extent that even ID proponents could not imagine. This may have a serious effect on our survival as a species as well as individual health. I hope that once we gain that power we will use it wisely, but I fear it will fall prey to the same ills as other technologies - only worse. I hate to imagine what 'improvements' geneticists of the future may decide are good for us.

You am play gods! You grasp exceed grasp!

 

[Darat]

Is that actually true, though? From experience, claims like that are often not based on fact but rather speculation. Given that the Catholic Church led the way in promoting science and rationality from before the time of the Enlightenment (yes, I know many here will disagree!), I'm sceptical of the claim, at least as presented.

So, Church leaders really didn't want to adopt the use of lightning rods, even while knowing the process worked, because they thought God wanted to zap their churches??? Other than one or two eccentrics, it sounds doubtful. I did a bit of googling, but didn't find anything concrete.

Apparently one of the earliest lightning rods was built by a theologian and used to protect a church:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod



Besides the claim of lightning rods causing droughts, others accused lightning rods of causing earthquakes because of the lightning being driven underground. I can't find explicit references to anyone saying "let the lightning destroy the churches!" They might be there though.

Why would anyone have said that?

ETA: Went to read your linked article, from your source:

".... There was some resistance from churches who felt that it was defying divine will to install these rods....."

Your source supports the claim (via my recollection - which of course may be entirely wrong) Asimov made.

 

[Steve]

That's a great way to throw cold water on a fun discussion, Steve.

I know. I'm just like that. It's why I never get invited to parties.

 

[Roboramma]

I'd have designed the Earth with a giant tunnel that goes through the center from one side to the other, maybe even more than one, so you could jump in and just fall to the other side of the earth where you'd land softly half an hour(?) later.

Also, I wouldn't make our solar system with only one planet with life. Mars and Venus would be both be covered in their own unique ecosystems, and at a similar enough temperature to Earth's that all three worlds could would be cross-habitable. I'd also throw in some cool Europan space whales. Feels like our solar system could be a lot cooler.

Probably wouldn't make quite so many diseases or parasites either. I doubt that malaria is conscious, and it doesn't seem to be adding much positive to the conscious experiences of other living things.

 

[GDon]

Why would anyone have said that?

That seems to be the implication of "[a]pparently, the churches didn't think they should adopt these newfangled ideas as they thwarted the almighty's will." I took it to mean that those churches knew the lightning rods worked, but didn't want to install them since God wanted to strike their churches.

ETA: Went to read your linked article, from your source:

".... There was some resistance from churches who felt that it was defying divine will to install these rods....."

Your source supports the claim (via my recollection - which of course may be entirely wrong) Asimov made.

Wiki doesn't provide any references unfortunately. I've seen so many claims about what church leaders said in the past that don't pan out, I'm sceptical of this claim. It sounds like something distorted, if not patently false. Then again, church leaders have made stupid claims in the past, so it could be true.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Well, that's ok. Nobody is forcing you. The thread is for those of us who would.

So when you asked...

if you could design stuff by hand, instead of whatever hacks on top of other hacks evolution produced, or however else God worked... what would YOU design better?

...you weren't actually asking me, only those of us who would do 'something'. Got it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The scientific theory of evolution is Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. Any religion which supposes that a god "used" evolution rejects it in favour of some kind of Theory of Evolution by Divine Guidance. There certainly is a conflict there, whether the Catholic church acknowledges it (or even recognises it) or not.

No, that doesn't follow. Many religions posit a universe created by a God that that had little or no interaction with it after the act of creation.

Furthermore there are few examples of the Christian God 'guiding' evolution, and they all come from the very early days of Genesis. And most mainstream religions don't even take that literally.

 

[Scorpion]

I have had fantasies about being given God like powers. I thought my way through it and finally decided I would do nothing, because any act may have unforeseen consequences.

There was a film called ' the man who could work miracles' which made this point clearly. The man was given absolute power by higher beings as an experiment. He started out ok with minor miracles, but in the end he went power mad and created a great temple, and gathered all the world leaders together in it. He boasted he could do anything, even stop the world from turning. The scientists said "you can't stop the world from turning" But he said "oh yes I" can and promptly stopped it. The world was destroyed and everything on it flew off into space. The man had already made himself immortal and when he found himself floating in the void he wished his powers away, and that everything was as it was before he got the powers.

I thought If I were give such powers I would start by making all dangerous viruses extinct. But that would increase the population by saving many lives, and the world is already over populated. How would you feed all those extra mouths. The same goes if you cured all disease. Or if you prevented all wars. You would have to start producing extra food with miracles like the loaves and fishes of Jesus. But that would be unsustainable. For one thing you would have to give yourself eternal life so that you could continue to provide food for all the extra people. I though I might terraform mars and Venus and move the expanding population there. But how would you choose who to send, and what kind of dissent might you encounter. You might find yourself wearying of the endless problems of sustaining the human race.

I think in the end I would want to relinquish all such powers and keep my head down.

 

[Pixel42]

No, that doesn't follow. Many religions posit a universe created by a God that that had little or no interaction with it after the act of creation.

Fair point, but that doesn't seem to be the RCC's position.

Furthermore there are few examples of the Christian God 'guiding' evolution, and they all come from the very early days of Genesis. And most mainstream religions don't even take that literally.

A planned end point - us - seems be assumed, though. That's a significant difference between the scientific understanding of how evolution actually works, and the religious concept of God "using" it to create us.

 

[Pixel42]

There was a film called ' the man who could work miracles' which made this point clearly.

Based on the short story by H.G. Wells of the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Could_Work_Miracles_(short_story)

I haven't seen the film (I didn't even know there was one) but the story's one of Wells' best.

The man was given absolute power by higher beings as an experiment.

He was given the all powerful part without the all knowing part. That's a recipe for disaster, yes. God supposedly has both.

 

[Scorpion]

Based on the short story by H.G. Wells of the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Could_Work_Miracles_(short_story)

I haven't seen the film (I didn't even know there was one) but the story's one of Wells' best.

Hi! Yes, I knew it was an H. G. Wells story. It is available as a DVD, and I have a copy of it. As I remember it you can also find it online to view for free.
Edit, Ha yes, I found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zmzCYmxPSs

 

[HansMustermann]

So when you asked...


...you weren't actually asking me, only those of us who would do 'something'. Got it.

Well, you're of course just as invited as everyone else. Just, as I was saying, nobody's forcing you. You don't have to protest that other people would.

 

[HansMustermann]

There was a film called ' the man who could work miracles' which made this point clearly. The man was given absolute power by higher beings as an experiment. He started out ok with minor miracles, but in the end he went power mad and created a great temple, and gathered all the world leaders together in it. He boasted he could do anything, even stop the world from turning. The scientists said "you can't stop the world from turning" But he said "oh yes I" can and promptly stopped it. The world was destroyed and everything on it flew off into space. The man had already made himself immortal and when he found himself floating in the void he wished his powers away, and that everything was as it was before he got the powers.

Well, there's a difference between fiction and reality, for a start. Let's just say that if the speed we go around the world actually equalled escape velocity, we'd already be into space. Doesn't make it a much less awful idea, mind you, just not in quite such a dramatic way.

Plus, we're told that God already managed to recover from a near extinction. The story flood for example is one that appears in several religions.

TI thought If I were give such powers I would start by making all dangerous viruses extinct. But that would increase the population by saving many lives, and the world is already over populated. How would you feed all those extra mouths. The same goes if you cured all disease. Or if you prevented all wars. You would have to start producing extra food with miracles like the loaves and fishes of Jesus. But that would be unsustainable. For one thing you would have to give yourself eternal life so that you could continue to provide food for all the extra people. I though I might terraform mars and Venus and move the expanding population there. But how would you choose who to send, and what kind of dissent might you encounter. You might find yourself wearying of the endless problems of sustaining the human race.

I think in the end I would want to relinquish all such powers and keep my head down.

Well, speaking of curing disease, maybe not all of them, but a simple solution for many is to simply eliminate the harmful plasmids from bacteria. For those who don't know, bacteria have circular strands of DNA, and can exchange them. The stuff that makes, say, the bubonic plague cause necrosis or cholera to make you crap your guts out is just in such separate plasmids.

So basically it wouldn't take a whole lot to basically let the soil and gut bacteria do their job, but basically get rid of every bacterial disease.

As for the logistics, we're talking a God who created the whole rest of the universe in one day. I don't think it would be that impossible to copy and paste Earth a few trillion times, and then you have all the space you'll ever need.

Plus, here's a thought: in all countries so far, once given access to contraception and medicine, the population explodes for a generation or two, and then it starts to dawn upon people that they don't need to make a dozen kids so at least one will survive. Then population starts to decline. So more realistically you'd have more of a problem keeping enough population long term, than what to do with overpopulation

 

[GDon]

Based on the short story by H.G. Wells of the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Could_Work_Miracles_(short_story)

I haven't seen the film (I didn't even know there was one) but the story's one of Wells' best.

I saw it many years ago. Good movie. The only thing the guy couldn't do was affect free-will.

There was a kind of remake in 2015 called "Absolutely Anything", with an impressive comedy cast, including Simon Pegg and Robin Williams. In this case, the power was granted by aliens instead of angels, and the man's dog destroys the power. Absolutely terribly unfunny movie!

 

[jrhowell]

Plus, here's a thought: in all countries so far, once given access to contraception and medicine, the population explodes for a generation or two, and then it starts to dawn upon people that they don't need to make a dozen kids so at least one will survive. Then population starts to decline. So more realistically you'd have more of a problem keeping enough population long term, than what to do with overpopulation

And since we are all-powerful in this thread we could nudge that along by making women unable to become pregnant unless they actually want to have a child.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Fair point, but that doesn't seem to be the RCC's position.

It isn't? Please explain.

A planned end point - us - seems be assumed, though. That's a significant difference between the scientific understanding of how evolution actually works, and the religious concept of God "using" it to create us.

Um, no. The RCC has always accepted scientific discoveries of the material world. It pretty much had to from the start because the Greeks and Romans held science in high regard - though we should remember that in those days 'science' also included a lot of bunk like astrology etc.

When the RCC says that science is not incompatible with their creed they are serious. Science says humans are just a recent branch of the evolutionary tree, and there's no 'end point' to it. Though the RCC says that God has a plan for humans, it doesn't put any timeline on it. Neither does it insist that humans aren't evolving, or that God is sticking His fingers in our DNA, or doing anything else to the physical world in order to fulfill His plan. On the contrary, the RCC implores us to do what's needed to make the world a better place, not sit on our hands and expect God to do it. For the RCC knows exactly what the true nature of God is...

 

[theprestige]

Make humanity more androgynous.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Well, speaking of curing disease, maybe not all of them, but a simple solution for many is to simply eliminate the harmful plasmids from bacteria...

So basically it wouldn't take a whole lot to basically let the soil and gut bacteria do their job, but basically get rid of every bacterial disease.

You are thinking too small. We have done a pretty good job of beating down bacterial diseases, but other ailments are proving more problematic. Even the best modern medicine can't keep us healthy for more than around 90 years, a pathetically short period of time. According to the Bible early humans lived for hundreds of years, and that was without any modern medicine at all!

But for your 'do anything' God, preventing aging and cancer is just the beginning. There are many environmental factors that shouldn't hurt a well designed organism which are holding us back. At a minimum we should be to breathe under water, and not be killed by microscopic levels of heavy metals. If tardigrades can survive in outer space, so should we! Then there's the necessity to eat, drink, sleep etc. - all stuff that isn't intrinsically necessary. And why did we have to be made of puny flesh that can't handle any punishment? God should give us fusion-powered titanium bodies that last forever, and silicon brains that work much faster at any temperature and don't die in 5 minutes without oxygen.

Actually come to think of it, why have bodies at all? God could make us out of pure energy that travels at the speed of light and can go anywhere - even inside black holes. If this God can do anything, that should be a piece of cake!

As for the logistics, we're talking a God who created the whole rest of the universe in one day. I don't think it would be that impossible to copy and paste Earth a few trillion times, and then you have all the space you'll ever need.

The Universe is a big place alright, but why limit us to living on Earth-like planets? That's thinking way too small...

 

[Blue Mountain]

The length of a year. Currently a year is 365.2425 days, leading to all sorts of machinations in our calendar to keep the months in line with the seasons. I would use a combination of altering the Earth's mass to slow its rotation slightly combined with moving its orbit so that one year is exactly 360.0000 days.

 

[Pixel42]

It isn't? Please explain.

Well for a start the RCC's position includes the belief that God sent His only son to save us from our sins. That doesn't sound like "little or no interaction with it after the act of creation" to me.

When the RCC says that science is not incompatible with their creed they are serious.

The virgin birth, the resurrection and miracles are compatible with science? Please explain.

Science says humans are just a recent branch of the evolutionary tree, and there's no 'end point' to it. Though the RCC says that God has a plan for humans, it doesn't put any timeline on it. Neither does it insist that humans aren't evolving, or that God is sticking His fingers in our DNA, or doing anything else to the physical world in order to fulfill His plan.

Other than performing the occasional, verified by them, miracle, you mean?

As far as evolution is concerned, I am not convinced that they truly believe that it happened without divine guidance and with no end point in God's mind, because it seems to me that makes a nonsense of most of their other beliefs. YMMV.