VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

[Daylightstar]

...

It'd be nice to hear something from Jerkert or someone in Sweden who was involved to see how it really went down. Then we can judge how truthful Ikonen's account was.

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Ward

I agree.

VoF, we'd love to hear from you.

 

[Beaver Hateman]

From an outside perspective, it would seem that the reason this woman keeps doing this stuff is because skeptical organisations keep paying her attention for doing it. Having googled her I can't see any references that come from any sources other than skeptical ones debunking her. The rest of the world (or I should say the tiny fraction of the rest of the world who are aware she exists - I feel that a Venn diagram showing 'People who read JRef forums' and 'People who have heard of Anita Ikonen' would have the second circle firmly enclosed within the first), just ignore her as she's not really interesting enough to pay attention to even if you are loony enough to believe her. Therefore she keeps on laying her nonsense in front of skeptical organisations, because if she didn't she'd get no attention, and she likes attention.

Of course this may be something of an oversimplification. But I don't think too much of a one.

 

[Akhenaten]

From an outside perspective, it would seem that the reason this woman keeps doing this stuff is because skeptical organisations keep paying her attention for doing it. Having googled her I can't see any references that come from any sources other than skeptical ones debunking her. The rest of the world (or I should say the tiny fraction of the rest of the world who are aware she exists - I feel that a Venn diagram showing 'People who read JRef forums' and 'People who have heard of Anita Ikonen' would have the second circle firmly enclosed within the first), just ignore her as she's not really interesting enough to pay attention to even if you are loony enough to believe her. Therefore she keeps on laying her nonsense in front of skeptical organisations, because if she didn't she'd get no attention, and she likes attention.

Of course this may be something of an oversimplification. But I don't think too much of a one.

You'll be wanting to redraw your diagram, I think.

 

[derekcbart]

Did anyone see that derekcbart posted an entry about IIG's 10 year anniversary party that's happening today in Hollywood? Do you think she might show up with her new skeptical boyfriend? I wouldn't put it past her.

Here is information about the party:
http://www.iigwest.org/iigawards/index.html

If you cannot make it to the party you can watch the stage portion of the show via UStream here:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iig-anniversary-party

Thanks.

-Derek

 

[Beaver Hateman]

You'll be wanting to redraw your diagram, I think[/URL].

Erm, yes. I did do that.

The first couple of pages are all stuff from here, from herself, from the 'stop vision from feeling' guy who posts here, or from other skeptical sites/organisations.

Looking further, on the fourth page I have found something from a 'believer' type site. but even that is in reference to her being 'tested' by the IIG, so without the unnecessary attention she gets from skeptcial groups, even that wouldn't have been there.

I have made the assumption that people who are involved in stuff like the IIG at least read this forum occasionally, that of course could be wrong.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Not speaking for bookitty, but Ikonen has some solid achievements. She's a very good student. She has her act together enough to get to another country to go to school. Those that have met her in person seem to agree that she's pleasant. Some may disagree, but I don't recall anyone who's actually met her who has written that she's personally not nice. She seems to have the talent to attract an audience when she was lecturing about breatharianism. These are all things that work in her favor as a person.

They are all also things that she can use to prop up her nonsense.

Ward

You know, I really am weary of saying anything because I don't want it to be misconstrued as a personal attack on Anita. If anyone remembers, I was the first person to say some JREF forum members had gone to far when commenting on Anita's weight as we should judge her by what she does and not what she looks like or other parts of her life. She has provided us plenty to judge on that angle.

But its really a stretch to call Anita a "good student" - she attends a third tier university and blames her class failures on abusive professors with 0 evidence (its not a BAD university by the way, but in the same state there are at least three options that are nationally ranked and two of those have medical schools and undergraduate research programs, which she claims is her goal). If going to a third tier local state university and being able to maintain above a 3.0 is an accomplishment that has to be noted, you are really trying hard to find something. I attended another North Carolina based podunk university for an MA and had a real 4.0GPA and its not an accomplishment to do in the UNC system (except perhaps at UNC Chapel Hill or NC State) - its hysterically easy, especially for foreign students that are used to more rigorous educational standards in their home country. In other words - if she were at UNC or NC State it would tend to be more impressive. At UNCC? Shes just average.

Anita may indeed be nice in person - I don't know, as I made the conscious effort to avoid her in person. But when did being nice in person become an accomplishment?

 

[desertgal]

You'll be wanting to redraw your diagram, I think.

No, for the most part, he's right. Anita draws the majority of attention (as Anita Ikonen/VisionFromFeeling) via skeptical organizations and forums.

Course, now, if you Google "Alenara", that's a different story - but most of those "mentions" from woos and woo sites are pretty dated.

Whether she draws attention from other people - fellow students, faculty, and family - is anyone's guess. I'm supposing they've long recognized that she is delusional and attention seeking, and disregard her shenanigans on that basis.

 

[Akhenaten]

No, for the most part, he's right. Anita draws the majority of attention (as Anita Ikonen/VisionFromFeeling) via skeptical organizations and forums.

I wouldn't dispute that statement at all, and I'll add that it's exactly the way we want things to be.

Anyone looking for information on Annie is more likely to hear from a sceptical group than they are from a fan site or from the Arcturan dingbat herself.

What I don't agree with is this perception of Beaver's:

I feel that a Venn diagram showing 'People who read JRef forums' and 'People who have heard of Anita Ikonen' would have the second circle firmly enclosed within the first.

I could also point out that the JREF Forum is much more of an unherd of cats than it is a sceptical organisation, but I'd better let it slide.

 

[Beaver Hateman]

I wouldn't dispute that statement at all, and I'll add that it's exactly the way we want things to be.

Anyone looking for information on Annie is more likely to hear from a sceptical group than they are from a fan site or from the Arcturan dingbat herself.

I'd argue that nobody is going to be looking for information on her unless they've heard of her through a skeptical website or organisation. What other outlets does she have? There may well be some I'm unfamiliar with but your google search certainly didn't show them.

What I don't agree with is this perception of Beaver's:

I could also point out that the JREF Forum is much more of an unherd of cats than it is a sceptical organisation, but I'd better let it slide.

That would be why I said "people who read JREF forums", and never referred to the JREF forums as a skeptical organisation.

 

[Akhenaten]

I'd argue

<snip>

Frankly, I'd rather not, but if you're going to insist on it then please stop leaving out the only bit of your original statement that I took issue with.

I feel that a Venn diagram showing 'People who read JRef forums' and 'People who have heard of Anita Ikonen' would have the second circle firmly enclosed within the first.

The above 'feeling' is not borne out by the evidence.

A Google search, for which I provided a link, demonstrates that a great many people who are not JREF Forum readers have indeed heard of Anita Ikonen.

If I wanted to be really pedantic I could point out that in fact it would only take a single person who has heard of Annie outside of this Forum to make your Venn Diagram, as proposed, wrong.

Is that clear enough?

 

[Beaver Hateman]

Frankly, I'd rather not, but if you're going to insist on it then please stop leaving out the only bit of your original statement that I took issue with.

The above 'feeling' is not borne out by the evidence.

A Google search, for which I provided a link, demonstrates that a great many people who are not JREF Forum readers have indeed heard of Anita Ikonen.

If I wanted to be really pedantic I could point out that in fact it would only take a single person who has heard of Annie outside of this Forum to make your Venn Diagram, as proposed, wrong.

Is that clear enough?

I've been reading these forums on and off for years and you've never heard of me. There are, as with any forum, far more people reading them occasionally than posting. I'd be almost sure that most of the people involved in skeptical organisations read these forums occasionally, and these are the people who were responsible for almost all the google links on the search you provided.

Of course it's a broad statement. Obviously she has family or friends who haven't read this. That was so obvious as not to need pointing out, wasn't it?

 

[Akhenaten]

I've been reading these forums on and off for years and you've never heard of me. There are, as with any forum, far more people reading them occasionally than posting. I'd be almost sure that most of the people involved in skeptical organisations read these forums occasionally, and these are the people who were responsible for almost all the google links on the search you provided.

Of course it's a broad statement. Obviously she has family or friends who haven't read this. That was so obvious as not to need pointing out, wasn't it?

Do I need to draw you a picture?

One of these diagrams is drawn in accordance with your feelings, and the other in accordance with reality.

I won't argue the point any further, so, by virtue of having the last word on the matter you can declare yourself the victor, if you so desire.


Cheers.

 

[Beaver Hateman]

Do I need to draw you a picture?

One of these diagrams is drawn in accordance with your feelings, and the other in accordance with reality.

I won't argue the point any further, so, by virtue of having the last word on the matter you can declare yourself the victor, if you so desire.


Cheers.

Right. I think those who have heard of her through her being discussed here and tested by skeptical organisations far outweighs those who have heard of her from any other source. I also think most people involved with skeptical organisations read these forums at least occasionally.

On the pedantic issue that she probably knows people in her private life who don't read this, I'll grant you the point. I should have said 'mainly enclosed within' rather than 'firmly enclosed within'. But if that was your point, Im not sure why you tried to make it by posting a google search that reinforced my position. It was a trifle confusing.

Now you've gone to the trouble of providing a Venn diagram that appears to claim there are many people who know her from other sources, but still no mention of what those sources are. My non-exaggerated representation of the diagram would be far more like number one than number two, but with some sticking out bits. I certainly feel that pretty much all members of skeptical organisations read JREF forums at least occasionally but not all JREF forum readers are members of skeptical organisations, so that one would be pretty much contained as it is in diagram 1. Why do you think it wouldn't?

I don't even know any more if you are claiming she has any public profile outside purely skeptical circles, so I'll have to let that one pass.

There we are, I won. Yay for me.

 

[desertgal]

What I don't agree with is this perception of Beaver's:

​

I could also point out that the JREF Forum is much more of an unherd of cats than it is a sceptical organisation, but I'd better let it slide.

Point taken. (The smileys aren't working for me today...consider yourself winked.)

 

[Akhenaten]

Point taken. (The smileys aren't working for me today...consider yourself winked.)

 

[bookitty]

I've been reading these forums on and off for years and you've never heard of me. There are, as with any forum, far more people reading them occasionally than posting. I'd be almost sure that most of the people involved in skeptical organisations read these forums occasionally, and these are the people who were responsible for almost all the google links on the search you provided.

Of course it's a broad statement. Obviously she has family or friends who haven't read this. That was so obvious as not to need pointing out, wasn't it?

Hi, welcome to forums (or the actually typing to people part anyway )

Are you feeling a bit confused or misunderstood? Perhaps you're wondering why a fairly simple statement needed to be dissected until the original intent was lost? You've just had the VFF forum experience.

This can be a bit daunting to the newcomer. We're all supposed to be on the same side, right? We are, here's what's happening. This thing has been going on for years now in these threads and the StopVFF site. There are millions of words, thousands of arguments.

Your comment (Skeptics, stop paying attention to her!) has come up before and been answered, many times. It's sort of like a creationist going to the science forums, saying "But what about the Piltdown Man!?" and expecting thoughtful and learned discourse.

There's no way you could be expected to know this. It's hardly worth reading all of the VFF material unless you have a strong reason to do so. Sure, things could have gone differently but people do tend to get a bit less friendly when asked to repeat themselves time and time again.

 

[Beaver Hateman]

Hi, welcome to forums (or the actually typing to people part anyway )

Are you feeling a bit confused or misunderstood? Perhaps you're wondering why a fairly simple statement needed to be dissected until the original intent was lost? You've just had the VFF forum experience.

This can be a bit daunting to the newcomer. We're all supposed to be on the same side, right? We are, here's what's happening. This thing has been going on for years now in these threads and the StopVFF site. There are millions of words, thousands of arguments.

Your comment (Skeptics, stop paying attention to her!) has come up before and been answered, many times. It's sort of like a creationist going to the science forums, saying "But what about the Piltdown Man!?" and expecting thoughtful and learned discourse.

There's no way you could be expected to know this. It's hardly worth reading all of the VFF material unless you have a strong reason to do so. Sure, things could have gone differently but people do tend to get a bit less friendly when asked to repeat themselves time and time again.

That's not really what happened though.

What happened was someone posted an attempted smart-arse 'LMGTFY' link without first checking to see whether the link actually proved the point it thought it proved. When he realised it didn't, he started blustering and contradicting himself.

That happens on all internet forums. It's why most of them end up not being worth a pot of warm piss, and why I don't generally waste my time posting.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Hi, welcome to forums (or the actually typing to people part anyway )

Are you feeling a bit confused or misunderstood? Perhaps you're wondering why a fairly simple statement needed to be dissected until the original intent was lost? You've just had the VFF forum experience.

That's a gross misrepresentation of what happened. He incorrectly stated that VFF's audience was limited to these forums. You know this isn't true. In fact, you posted the following about her demonstration at TAM.

Maybe the forum isn't that big a deal. There was a contest to find fellow forum-ites at TAM. The list had about 125 people on it. This didn't count everybody but it was pretty close. That's less than 10% of the people who showed up for TAM. The message is getting out there somehow and this forum is only a small part of that.

(emphasis added) There were over a thousand people at TAM, so quite clearly a lot of non-forum members have heard of her.

* You are also quite familiar with the various blogs that discussed her, and many of the readers found this the first mention of her.

* In this very thread she was contacting a group in Sweden. You know she has contacted other groups like F-A-C-T, and most of them are not involved here.

* You know she has done readings for people on the streets of Charlotte and in the process contacted government officials and the owners of a mall seeking "permission" to demonstrate her abilities.

* You know that she was written about in her school newspaper.

* You know that the IIG press release was picked up by a number of organizations including paranormal ones.

* You know she was written up on Bad Psychics.

* You know she was interviewed on Rational Alchemy.

* You know all about her identity as Alenara the Breatharian, where she traveled Poland giving lectures and ended up with a YouTube channel devoted to her.

* You know she has told us that she has been contacted by what she calls woos asking for advice.

* You know she contacted a migraine support group asking if she could come to a meeting and try to heal them.

* You know she has written letters to paranormal organizations asking volunteering to work with them.

So, when somebody comes in her claiming that VFF has some very limited group that is aware of her, they are simply wrong. Correcting this misinformation is what skeptics do all the time, and the impetus has nothing to do with VFF.

This can be a bit daunting to the newcomer. We're all supposed to be on the same side, right?

No, we're not supposed to be on the same side. Why would you say such a thing? The board is open to anyone, including VFF (until she got herself banned). It's a discussion board, and people are expected to disagree. Even on the "side" of not believing Anita's claims, there are numerous points over which reasonable people disagree, sometimes vehemently. They can and should discuss them. The notion of being on the "same side" is nothing more than personalization where none belongs because it brings up expectations and thus disappointments when none should exist.

Your comment (Skeptics, stop paying attention to her!) has come up before and been answered, many times. It's sort of like a creationist going to the science forums, saying "But what about the Piltdown Man!?" and expecting thoughtful and learned discourse.

Somebody watched Eureka last night.

There's no way you could be expected to know this. It's hardly worth reading all of the VFF material unless you have a strong reason to do so. Sure, things could have gone differently but people do tend to get a bit less friendly when asked to repeat themselves time and time again.

Yep, they sure do, because it's kind of rude to knowingly step into a situation where you know there's a wealth of discussion and then without reading it present your own admitted simplification of the facts. The "friendly" way would be to ask a few questions or just say, "would it be fair to characterize it as..." and then see what people say.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Mystery solved. School has started in North Carolina, but Ikonen's having trouble securing her visa to get back into the US. That clears up a lot of my confusion about what's going on.

She must have a lot of time on her hands because she keeps adding junk to her website and she also continues to post in the Swedish skeptical forum here: http://translate.google.com/transla...orum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13219&sl=auto&tl=en

She wrote a letter to Akhenaten on her new blog.

But most hilariously, she has created a "to do list." You can read it here: http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/to-do-list.html

Can anyone here think of anything she should add to her to do list?

Ward

 

[zooterkin]

Mystery solved. School has started in North Carolina, but Ikonen's having trouble securing her visa to get back into the US. That clears up a lot of my confusion about what's going on.

Aha, that would also explain why she doesn't appear in any of the photos of the IIG party that I looked through this morning.

ETA: Just read the blog entry; I'm guessing Akhenaten is quite happy to be on the other side of the world...