Vision From Feeling

[Locknar]

My two cents....I think we've drifted a bit off topic (ie. Vff's claims). While worth merit, I think discussion related to scammers belongs in a separate thread.

I suggested once, though will repeat it - I think there is merit for someone to actually conduct the test survey study what ever you want to call it.

Stating the obvious as it is currently designed, seems anyone could score well. You'd think a "brilliant student" would realize this but I digress.

 

[Uncayimmy]

There , fixed it for you ... Personal incredulity doesn't count for much here.

Perhaps not, but personal opinions regarding personality do. Suppose he had said, "In person she's a fast talker. She reminded me of a used car salesman the way she twisted things around and tried to convince us what she was doing was real. She was like a carnival barker." Would that have been any value to you? It would have to me.

Since when can't a scammer be - soft spoken, not at all pushy, very genuinely nice and interesting ?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any scammers or frauds who use words to con people into paying for dubious services whom I would consider soft spoken and not pushy. Embezzlers? Absolutely - it's much easier to fly under the radar that way. But salesman and publicity hounds? Not so much.

Of course I will add that I am aware of.

[Not] Endearing herself to the skeptical community [but instead alienating them and being mocked by them] could just be part of the set up; even though it may not be working for her in any way that we can comprehend.

Fixed it for you.

While she is avoiding a legitimate test, she can make claims about how hard she is trying to work out a testing protocol with card carrying skeptics, and cry foul when things don't go her way .

Cry foul to whom? So far, it's just us skeptics - a most unreceptive audience. Her website links directly to a thread where I flat out accuse her of being unskeptical, unreliable, and possibly mentally ill.

If she had cut us off completely and posted on her website that we couldn't figure out how to test her and that we attacked her, I'd be right there with you calling scam.

This is not an argument from incredulity. It's a matter of saying, "If someone is a fraud, this is what I would expect to see," and then not seeing it. My theory, of course, always subject to change.

 

[desertgal]

Suddenly, he's attacked from all sides.

No. We didn't pile on him. Three people responded to his post. Then Farencue took the discussion back to what was being discussed before he posted.

People offer "helpful" edits to his post.

No. One person offered a reasonable edit to his post.

Generally, it seems like this new potentially very helpful poster is very unwelcome.

I don't think so. I welcome his opinion on his first hand experience of Anita, and any future ones. I just don't see the necessity for taking pot shots. "Attack the posts, not the posters." Like it or not, and I've read this thread several times, none of us have taken swipes at Anita's personality - just her claims and her apparently delusional thinking.

 

[Uncayimmy]

A scammer can spend a lot of time and effort to set the stage for the scam.
A scam doesnt always happen in a short time frame.

Sounds reasonable. Do you have some examples? We've heard stories of con artists working an individual for a long period of time in an effort to get a big payoff in the end. Do you have examples of con artists spending long periods of time working people they do not intend to scam?

The scam here is to set herself up as the next famous woo who can scan the body for illness with the accuracy of an MRI machine and perhaps even perform gasp! psychic surgery!

Any examples of someone who has taken a similar approach? By that I mean devoting countless hours and tens of thousands of words to the skeptical as a set up in order to scam the gullible at some later time?

Along those lines, how many psychic, homeopathic and audiophool websites link back to this or any other skeptic website? Not many. Those that do do it like The Professor, who tries to make the JREF out to be fools and frauds.

It seems to me that in order to be a scammer, she's taking a radical new approach or is exceedingly bad at it. In my experience those who are exceedingly bad at it tend to try to close the deal too early rather than wait for too long.

I doubt it is a happy coincidence that he and Anita have come across each other.

She wrote an entry in his guestbook in late November of 2008, close to 18 months after her website first went up. The very next day he responded on her website. Nothing since.

Whoever said something about being the one Randi couldnt debunk is right.

So why link to a thread where I flat out accuse her of being unskeptical, unreliable, and possibly mentally ill? Wanna see a scammer in action? Go to The Professor's site at JimClass dot com. Go read his posts on Magic Cafe. A recent one reads:

Slim sat in the Devils Chair and not only heard the voice but got a recording (EVP) he made the prediction based upon that and will be hitting the air waves again with the proof.

I wonder why the JREF put an end to his test?

Could it be they were afraid of loosing the $1,000,000.00 they get to keep if they do not give it out?
(Kind of suspicious say I).

That's how you work it.

As always, this is just my opinion although as a business owner I have seen many many scammers - some act like aholes and some of them are just as sweet as Anita seemed at first. She doesnt seem so sweet now, she sounds desperate.

She's back to being sweet since her actual test is no longer imminent. That aside, how do you rank her on her skills as a scammer? I know it's hard to judge since she hasn't actually scammed anybody yet, but you get the idea.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Fair enough. For my own reasons, I still leans towards a combination of delusional/scam, but I accept that your conclusion might equally be true. Only time will tell.

Anita, of course, protests that she is just a science student looking to explain experiences that have happened to her, but her constant contradictions and irrationality indicate otherwise. IMO, if the 'study' doesn't yield results that point to a paranormal ability, she will disregard them and continue proclaiming herself a "psychic medical diagnostician", inventing "accurate", anecdotal results repeatedly in the future.

I am curious as to your opinion on, if Anita is running a scam, why here? Obviously, in the beginning, she may have had the hope that she could 'fool the skeptics', but is pretty apparent that no one believes a word she says at this point. Why persevere? She can't sell us anything, and if her presence here is so she can proclaim to have discussed this with skeptics (and/or twist our words for her website as she did Unca's and Miss Kitt's), then she has done that. She has no interest, really, in using any protocol or scale that anyone here presents. It's baffling. (If this has been asked and answered before, I apologize-haven't had the chance to go back through the thread.)

>>>For my own reasons, I still leans towards a combination of delusional/scam, but I accept that your conclusion might equally be true. Only time will tell.

Thats cool, thats why different eyes see the "whole" thing. You have direct experience in areas I dont and yes, only time will tell.

>>>I am curious as to your opinion on, if Anita is running a scam, why here? Obviously, in the beginning, she may have had the hope that she could 'fool the skeptics', but is pretty apparent that no one believes a word she says at this point. Why persevere? She can't sell us anything, and if her presence here is so she can proclaim to have discussed this with skeptics (and/or twist our words for her website as she did Unca's and Miss Kitt's), then she has done that. She has no interest, really, in using any protocol or scale that anyone here presents. It's baffling.

Heres the way I see it. ( again, this is based soley on posted words and no personal contact or in depth investigation so its no more than an opinion)

She is using all of this as a "testing sandbox" for future use.

scammers dont care about boards like this "outing" them because boards like this dont have any firepower. ( if they did, no fraud could survive) I believe she is "testing the waters" so she can develop answers, NOT for skeptics but to satiate the followers who are sure to come. Its obvious to me for these reasons.

1) she deliberately came here and is "in control" of her world

2) she came here with an agenda ( start a controversy)

3) she has let some of her goals out with other sites.

4) she isnt here to sell, she is here to see what she is up against and to find ways around it.

 

[tsig]

Sounds reasonable. Do you have some examples? We've heard stories of con artists working an individual for a long period of time in an effort to get a big payoff in the end. Do you have examples of con artists spending long periods of time working people they do not intend to scam?


Any examples of someone who has taken a similar approach? By that I mean devoting countless hours and tens of thousands of words to the skeptical as a set up in order to scam the gullible at some later time?

Along those lines, how many psychic, homeopathic and audiophool websites link back to this or any other skeptic website? Not many. Those that do do it like The Professor, who tries to make the JREF out to be fools and frauds.

It seems to me that in order to be a scammer, she's taking a radical new approach or is exceedingly bad at it. In my experience those who are exceedingly bad at it tend to try to close the deal too early rather than wait for too long.


She wrote an entry in his guestbook in late November of 2008, close to 18 months after her website first went up. The very next day he responded on her website. Nothing since.


So why link to a thread where I flat out accuse her of being unskeptical, unreliable, and possibly mentally ill? Wanna see a scammer in action? Go to The Professor's site at JimClass dot com. Go read his posts on Magic Cafe. A recent one reads:


That's how you work it.


She's back to being sweet since her actual test is no longer imminent. That aside, how do you rank her on her skills as a scammer? I know it's hard to judge since she hasn't actually scammed anybody yet, but you get the idea.

I'd rate them excellent. She has you by the nose.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I don't see her as a scammer in the classical sense, i.e . setting us up for some big pay off in the near future.

I see her as using the JREF forums as part of a plan to launch a woo career .

Her initial

" Hi y'all, I think I have these marvelous abilities, and want you to help me test them .. "

... just doesn't fly anymore..

She's clearly intelligent enough to know she doesn't have these abilities, so the logical assumption is that she is after something else besides have the skeptical community help her test for them .

Come on people. The Emperor is in his underwear ..

 

[tsig]

I don't see her as a scammer in the classical sense, i.e . setting us up for some big pay off in the near future.

I see her as using the JREF forums as part of a plan to launch a woo career .

Her initial

" Hi y'all, I think I have these marvelous abilities, and won't you to help me test them .. "

... just doesn't fly anymore..

She's clearly intelligent enough to know she doesn't have these abilities, so the logical assumption is that she is after something else besides have the skeptical community help her test for them .

Come on people. The Emperor is in his underwear ..

The true story of the Emperor’s new clothes.

We all know the story but here’s how it really happened.

As the Emperor was parading a voice rang out “He’s naked”. Immediately two guards grabbed the child and took him before the chief courtier who asked “Do you not see how fine and well tailored this toga and mantle are?” the child answered “Truly I see nothing” The courtier replied “ Are you a tailor?” the child answered “No”
“And what do you know of silk, gold thread and weaving”? The courtier demanded. “Nothing sir” the child replied. “Since you know nothing then you will see nothing” said the courtier.

He then ordered the child blinded and executed.

After that the crowd saw the Emperor’s clothes quite well.

 

[Gmonster2]

ITs obvious even she knows she doesn't have these abilities.

After 3 months of all talk an no action there's no results for pups chemical test.

She hasnt bothered to get her crystals out.

Twice at the skeptics group and no tests.

Deep down she knows shes got nothing thats why the main claim on health perceptions has been watered down to a guessing game / study.

Shes doing the rope a dope on any testing its plain for all to see.

The woman from the link i posted brent atwater does distant energy healing sessions for hundreds to thousands of dollars, its a real nice earner work from home, be your own boss.This human MRI machine was "tested" at 5yrs old and was born in 1947!

Vff the clairsentient is nothing new. She's a copycat nutbar.

 

[JWideman]

LONGTABBER PE:
I look at people and I perceive health information. My perceptions have had apparent correlation to the actual health of persons. There is no delusion or scam involved in that. I am merely working toward a scientific explanation. It could be unintentional cold reading. It could be ESP. It could be that the accuracy is not as good as it had seemed to be once in a controlled test situation. I want to find out.

That you see things that nobody else does is either hallucination or imagination. That sometimes there is a correlation is coincidence. That what you claim is a correlation is in fact not a correlation is dishonesty. What the delusion is, is your belief that you have this ability, that you're an alien, that you talk to ghosts, etc.
When you started posting, I thought you had a fascinating type of synesthesia. Now I see you're just a bag full of crazy.

 

[Farencue]

UncaYimmy
You have addressed me personally. First of all I have not linked to any of your posts, I have never addressed you personally and up until now I did not wish to do so.
Secondly, you dont seem very happy that I have come into this thread and given my opinion.
I am speaking from my own experience with scammers. I have been scammed in my business more than once. I was also employed by an Australian state government in the police department many years ago and so have had experience of other people's misfortune with scammers.

You are speaking from your experience with international students.
In one of my intial posts when I asked a question of another member you took it upon yourself to answer and say something to the effect that as far as you are concerned the matter was settled, even though you did not address what I was actually getting at - I can assure you it wasnt about whether Anita is Swedish or not. That is totally irrelevant to me.

I have read through this incredible thread and done some digging around of my own. I respectfully suggest if you wish to learn more about scammers and people who claim to perform psychic surgery, that you do your own research instead of scoffing at what I am trying to say.
Finally I would have preferred to address you personally to thank you for the things I have learnt on this thread from yourself, as I said in my introductory post I do not possess much education and quite a lot of people here including Ashles have taught me a lot.
We are all entitled to our opinion and my opinion is that Anita is a future scammer of gullible woos. if you do not agree with my opinion then thats what makes it such an interesting world to live in - in my opinion of course.

Respectfully
Farencue

 

[Jonquill]

Wouldn't most well bought up young ladies be sweet and quiet when meeting with a whole bunch of strangers at a new club?
It's pretty easy to be well behaved for an hour or so, sometimes you have to know someone for quite a while before you start to see their true colours emerging.

 

[Farencue]

Jonquill, the ability to charm is a characteristic of some mental illnesses and of confidence tricksters. Not saying confidence tricksters are mentally ill or that the mentally ill are confidence tricksters.

 

[Jonquill]

Can you be a confidence trickster and mentally ill at the same time?

Maybe she thinks she is tricking us into helping her get a Nobel prize for example?

 

[desertgal]

I'd rate them excellent. She has you by the nose.

No. Anita's thousands of words are consistent with delusional thinking. They could also be consistent with running a scam. As noted repeatedly, the jury is still out.

But, to clarify the reason for believing she is displaying delusional thinking, let's look at this recent post, which, to me, just reeks of delusion.

For those of you who have expressed concern for my mental well-being, I can only thank you since I presume that it was done out of caring and with my best interest in mind, and also I need to seriously think about what reasons have emerged to make you feel this way.

IOW, "it's not ME. It's YOU." Is that a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

Meanwhile I still contend that the visual and felt information I perceive from when I look at people are not in themselves any reason for concern. The perceptions of organs and tissue or of pain that I perceive when I see other people are on the same level as other impressions that form on their own in people's minds due to other things and association...Such are my medical perceptions, that they are more like impressions. The perceptions, in themselves, are no reason for concern.

That is significantly different from her original claim. Is adjusting a story to perpetuate a delusional reality a delusional characteristic? Absolutely. It also might indicate that reality is beginning to intrude on Anita's delusional world, and she's desperate to find some way to straddle that fence and still remain "extraordinary".

I hold no automatic belief in the perceptions.

This is patently ridiculous. If she didn't believe in her perceptions, she would not be here. She would not have contacted IIG, or built a website. Is that type of denial a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

The perceptions in themselves are not of interest to me.

Also patently ridiculous. She's emphasized, several times, how much she enjoys her perceptions of the human body-the beauty of tissue, etc etc. And, again, if the perceptions themselves were not of interest to her, she wouldn't be here. Is that type of denial a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

Those two statements above are a perfect example of what Unca is referring to when it comes to how poorly she is manipulating her claims. Is poor manipulation of claims and blatant contradictions a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

The only reason I am conducting an investigation into my experience with the perceptions is due to the apparent correlation between my medical perceptions and with the actual health of persons. Although I do realize the unreliability that exists whenever a person decides to understand or to explore their own subjective experience, which is why I would probably not trust my own judgement alone when saying that I have experienced this correlation. This apparent accuracy has been established by other people as well, and by means in which I have no direct involvement or influence.

a) She is trusting her own judgment alone. She certainly has proven that she refuses to accept any other opinion than her own when it comes to those "perceptions". b) No apparent accuracy has been established by any other person other than in her mind. A delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

Based on that experience I have become curious about the apparent accuracy of my perceptions, and this curiosity comes not from my own choices or interpretations, but by what has been suggested to me by what takes takes place in the world around me and with other people.

Yet more hogwash. She's not curious about the accuracy of her perceptions - in her mind, she's already established the accuracy of her perceptions. That is perfectly clear from the anecdotes on her website, and her new "body art". She just wants to convince others. A delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

Furthermore the way in which I deal with this inquiry into my perceptions shows to me that my approach to it also should not be reason of concern.

Okay, if that sentence actually made sense, then one would have to call hogwash. Her approach to this 'study' is incredibly sloppy. She is jumping through hoops to come up with a protocol and a scale that will give her the result she wants - proof of her paranormal ability. A delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

I do not choose to blindly believe that I am perceiving accurate health information. I do not make any assumptions regarding my experience. I do not use my past experiences as evidence for anything.

We know those three statements are outright lies. Is lying to perpetuate a delusional reality a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

I am fully prepared to accept the results of the investigation. My objective is to find out the truth behind the perceptions and their actual accuracy. I am prepared to find out that the actual accuracy is not after all as high as the accuracy has appeared to be in the past.

I think it is fair to say, based on the thousands of words she has posted here, that these statements do not reflect the truth, but are, instead, manipulatively disingenuous. A delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

For instance people might have been lying to me or simply mistaken about their health leading to a false impression of correlation but not due to me.

IOW, "If I have been wrong in the past, then it wasn't ME. It was THEM."

In case I am perceiving accurate health information, then I am of course open to discover that the information originates from cold reading. Perhaps I am using some skill without knowing it that translates external clues into corresponding health information.

Of course, she is just repeating herself for the sake of convincing us. Another delusional trait.

Personally I would find this conclusion to be equally as fascinating as a real case of extrasensory perception. And do note, that extrasensory perception is somewhat on the bottom of my list of expected possibilities.

I think it is safe to say, judging from the "Body Art", that this is manipulatively disingenuous, as well.

From the way in which I have conducted this investigation so far I see no reason for concern for my mental well-being.

Delusional people are never capable of recognizing their delusional state. Ever. It just doesn't happen.

I have contacted two skeptics groups and taken in* all of their advice and been fully conforming to their suggestions regarding how a test of my claimed experience should take place. And according to the suggestions of these skeptics I am now conducting a study into my experience.

*She's done this play on words before.

Otherwise, the statement is obviously not true. But, to her, it might well be. A delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

The purpose of the study of course is first of all to falsify a non-ability at this early stage, as well as to find out more about what are the kind of things that I claim to perceive, and what the correlation might be to how people perceive and know their own health. If the study reveals a significant extent of correlation between what I perceive and the actual health of persons then of course a paranormal test is an appropriate next step.

Which would explain why she is working so hard to ensure that that "correlation" takes place.

I see nothing wrong with engaging in a scientific inquiry into an unusual experience. I am seeking a rational explanation to the apparent correlation that I have experienced.

Blah, blah, blah. More repetition of the same delusional pattern of thinking.

The way in which this investigation is being done, should also not be of concern. I have consistently emphasized great care to ensure that none of the people who take part in my inquiry come to any harm, and even though many of you skeptics here at the JREF Forum have ridiculed my efforts of ensuring no harm, I have strongly and firmly encorporated all necessary care into the design of my investigation.

Delusional? Absolutely. Because there is no way for her to "ensure" that her victims subjects don't come to harm. Her "great care" consists of protecting herself, not them. And, of course, she includes that woo mantra: "It's not ME. It's YOU."

It should be clear that I show great consideration for the possible legal, moral, ethical, and practical complications that may come about in a paranormal investigation that due to the mere subject of this inquiry is not only controversial and provocative to many, but due to involving health information of persons may involve possible harm if done in a careless way.

Blah, blah, blah. This is just a woo covering her bases so she won't be blamed if anything goes wrong.

Of course it has already been a year and a half since I begun this investigation, but there are no intentional reasons for me to delay the progress of this investigation. There really have been practical difficulties and in combination with the careful approach that I adopt and my obligations with life and studies that have delayed the advance of this study.

Blah, blah, blah. This reads more like Anita trying to convince herself that it's not HER fault-it's everything and everyone else. Gee, where have we heard that before? Let me think...

I am not here seeking attention in fact it should be clear if viewed from an objective perspective that I have done what I can to avoid placing any attention on myself as a person and trying to ensure that focus remains on the subject of inquiry which is the medical perceptions and how to test their accuracy and source to see whether it correlates with what I have experienced.

IOW, "pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain, but DO pay attention to the Great and Powerful Oz."

I have noticed no delusional behavior on my part.

And, again, delusional people are never capable of recognizing their delusional state. Ever. It just doesn't happen.

And by the way, I did not make two incorrect perceptions on the recent study with one of the skeptics.

Well, obviously, several people here have pointed out that the opposite is true, but is refusal to face reality or admit an error a delusional characteristic? Absolutely.

A lot of the upset on this thread comes, I believe, from the deliberate intent to find something negative against me and from actual misinterpretation of what was said and done on my part.

"It's not ME. It's YOU."

Due to how anything I say here is treated by you skeptics I do have reason to doubt the value of some of your judgement. If you consider how I was treated after saying that I am from Sweden, that I am studying two B.S. degrees at the same time, that my family is not overly excited about my perceptions, and all other ordinary and trivial things and how you have reacted to these things, then I can not hold much value in your judgement in the more serious topics.

"It's not ME. It's YOU."

I have listened very carefully to most of what has been said here and I can safely conclude to myself that I find no reason for concern.

As Unca already pointed out, Anita has a slight tendency to repeat herself.

As to the other things that I may have expressed here that stir up some commotion among you. The reference to Arcturian heritage is not something I have stated as evidence or fact. To consider oneself a Star Person is a form of cultural identity, simply relating to interests and personal characteristics that are mutually not that common, such as a very caring and unselfish nature, interests in science, technology and spirituality, and relating to a concept of self and the world that is bigger than the current boundaries of our world. As for my experience of ghosts there is also no reason for concern (unless they push me off a chair).

How delusional that statement is is glaringly apparent, so I won't elaborate. It's a good example of Anita clinging to her delusion that she is "extraordinary", though.

I feel that much of the distress expressed by Forum members is due the delay in progress and their impatience with it. Clearly most of the criticism against me has been unfounded, and I feel that the recent upset about whether I am delusional is just the most recent expression of your complaining nature. There must always be something to argue about for you guys. Had I not offered to present evidence that I originate from Sweden we would probably still be arguing about that.

"It's not ME. It's YOU."

This investigation will yield final results, which I will adhere to. <snipped for repetitiveness> But at this point I think I am doing just fine.

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda. Delusional characteristics included? Absolutely.

Does all this mean that she may be a future scammer of gullible woos? Absolutely. Or she may just be a delusional gal looking for attention to perpetuate the delusion.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Anybody know of anybody on this board who could run some numbers for us? Is FLS a statistician?

Ashles, since Anita told IIG that she needed people to be in pain for the test, how about we only count a limited set of time frames? Just eliminating within the year or longer than a year would reduce the number of eligible check marks considerably but still give her the data she wants.

I teach experimental psych and part of that is reteaching stat. However, I would not touch a clusterfork like Anita's Mess O' Data with a 3 meter pole. I believe it was Ashles who pointed out earlier that you have to plan out the whole study, including the appropriate stat, first.
Even my less than A average undergraduates manage to master that concept.
This whole "study" is a waste of time and cannot demonstrate anything of value.

 

[Jonquill]

Farencue, are you suggesting that someone other than Anita (an American) is writing some of the material? Like a team effort?

 

[Farencue]

Thankyou desertgal for the very informative posts you have made about delusional thinking. I understand you have personal experience yourself and appreciate you being so forthright.
All the best to you!

 

[Farencue]

Jonquill,
It is my belief that Anita is not what she makes herself out to be.
Please note that I am not talking about things such as her nationality or her university studies. I think it is blatantly obvious that she is here to build a platform for her future endeavours as a master of woo.
Others think she is delusional and in need of psychiatric assistance.
ETA* Perhaps it is both.

 

[Jonquill]

dirtygreek - what were your impressions of Anita's friend Chris?
Was it her boyfriend? Was was he like?