Vision From Feeling

[VisionFromFeeling]

desertgal:

Given that, I shall refrain from further comment in this thread.

There is no need for you to refrain from posting comments. As long as we stay on topic. Comments that relate to the actual claim and investigation will lead to progress.

To act on this type of alleged ability is never harmless, regardless of the context in which you 'perform' it. Family, friends, testing, studies, surveys - what have you - it still has the potential for inflicting emotional damage, regardless of waivers and the like.

When I look at people I perceive images and understanding of their health, and whether I've chosen to check with the person or had it confirmed by other means, the correlation with actual health conditions has been compelling and leads me to want to investigate the actual accuracy of these perceptions. I 'perform' this in a scientific context and will do my best to minimize the potential harm. There are ailments to test with that would not inflict harm, such as vasectomy and pains. I will ensure that I am very careful, but thank you for reminding everyone. I will let all of you critique my actual plans before I follow through to actually meet with persons in a study or a test.

Locknar:

Out of all the people you've examined with your "power" and given a 1:6 ratio of men with vasectomies (in the US)...nothing special. Unless, of course, you've asked ALL the men you've used your "power" on and confirmed things?

I've only detected vasectomy once, but that does not imply anything about how well I would detect this or how often I might miss it. That is what the study is for. Even if there were a 1 in 6 chance of "guessing" that a man has had a vasectomy, the point is that I've never "guessed" wrong. But I can not prove that anecdotal fact. The upcoming study will document the accuracy.

A lifetime of this "power" and you need yet more time to study before quantifying your claim?

I'm afraid so. I've rarely given myself the opportunity to ask a person to obtain the accuracy of my perceptions. And that is what the study is for.

Sounds like the typical "delay and stall" tactic to me, given this has been going on since 2007 with ZERO credible testing/results.

The fact that nothing of importance has happened since I applied with the IIG West is not my fault. I am now involved with a local skeptics group, and arranging the study. And I have at least two persons (Pup and ReverendClog) who are planning to meet with me for a test. I'm working on it, I really am.

You state above you know your anecdotes are not evidence...then describe them as "accurate descriptions."
IF you truly understand that anecdotes do not qualify as evidence then stop presenting them as such or anything other then YOUR undocumented and uncorroborated perception of events.

What I'm saying is that the anecdotes are not formal evidence, but I also assure that I've presented the truth and that they are what compel me personally to proceed toward a test. We are both right in this regard.

Rather then work on a far simpler aspect, such as detecting elements/chemicals as you've claimed to have done, you've chosen to focus on "health issues" - convenient as health claims are virtually impossible to verify in your current (undefined, unquantified) context.

If my study finds that I am confident in detecting for instance vasectomy or heart bypass surgery then we have a perfectly testable claim.

You've stated you must see the individual, summarily ruling out cold reading seems unlikely unless you focus on something with no visible/overt clues; ie. tonsillectomy, appendectomy, etc.

I think you have a point. Rather than trying to find ailments that I am confident in, but including ones that could possibly be cold read and then worrying about designing a test that eliminates cold reading, we should only involve ailments that can never be cold read. I think this is a very good point.

So you have been medically diagnosed, by a neurologist, to have synesthesia?

No, but I recognize some of its defining characteristics in the way that I experience things and process information.

If this study is as undefined/unquantified as everything else involving your claim, should it actually happen it will do nothing more then feed your own belief.

The study will begin taking place in the exact same way as my everyday experience is. I will then change one condition at a time toward an acceptable test protocol, and if my ability fails I will know what test condition caused it.

This is exactly the kind of "wiggle" you leave open with "detecting" health issues in a undefined/unquantified fashion. You were wrong, just as you were wrong in the picture diagnoses you did here...and yet your attempting to exlain it as a "hit"...again.

Not at all. I realize that the perception of the small intestine was a possible case of inaccuracy, but in all seriousness I can not conclude that this condition which I otherwise described fully correctly was not somehow associated with the small intestine. The test will only involve yes or no answers that do not involve descriptions or other information entangled with it. See my reply to UncaYimmy about this, briefly upthread.

skeen:

Nonsense. That's just a transparent copout. And I think I can generalize about scientific impossibilities. I should also say you cannot fly, am I still generalizing?

You're wasting everyones time and I think you know it. Just quickly, and swiftly confirm the ability does not exist, and it's all over. But you don't want that, do you? You want to fool yourself into thinking you have it.

So can you tell me whether it is according to North Carolina law to engage willing participants in a study of possible psychic medical diagnose, in which participants will be disclosing personal health information and in which there is possible harm to persons who obtain accurate or inaccurate health information regardless of whether the participants claim to understand and to be able to handle this potential risk? I'm just ensuring a) I don't break the law, b) I don't hurt anyone.

No one should have any patience with you anymore. There will be no test, there will be no nothing. It all could have ended at the skeptics meeting, you could have just said what you saw. Forget about "opportunity" - that's like saying, "I didn't have the opportunity to fly around and show people I can fly" - erm, I'm pretty sure that effectively rewriting Science would have been worth just going for it.

There will be a test, unless my study falsifies the hypothesis of extrasensory perception. This investigation has not shown indication of no test happening up ahead, all we have that makes us impatient is that this is all taking very much time. Yes it could very well have ended at the skeptics meeting, if we would have had the opportunity to put my claim to the test but there was no time available. If you said you could fly, you could show it right away. If you say you can detect health information in people, you need people, and that is what I haven't got.

Your very reasoning is flawed. I question your very intelligence, and I do not believe you have any scientific qualifications whatsoever, unless you got them from the Bible belt or some kookie newage university.

I will not involve my career or university in this investigation, for reasons you have shown now. My credibility as a becoming scientist and that of my school has got nothing to do with this investigation, and I have tried to make that perfectly clear.

UncaYimmy:

Saying "as is typical" implies that you have done the [chemical identification] tests before. In the paragraph before that you pledged to continue to run the chemical tests.

I've had a few chemical identification tests and none have falsified the possibility of ESP with regard to chemical identification. But those tests are exhausting to me and cause headache and nausea. I'm concentrating on the main claim now.

So, why did you abandon testing chemical detection? Please don't come back with your standard line about how you want to test your primary claim (not that you have actually made a claim anyway). That's just like saying "Just because."

Just because.

 

[desertgal]

desertgal:
Well let's focus on the claim I want to have tested.

What you don't get is that ALL your claims affect your credibility where the claim you want to have tested is concerned-and right now, your credibility score is zero. Zilch. Nada.

Nobody. believes. you.

Besides I've never said I'm a reincarnated white dwarf star.

My mistake. An "extraterrestrial incarnation from a white dwarf star". Another hallucination.

Alright, I'll show them my Swedish passport. It will be photographed and that will be signed by two witnesses.

What part of "I wasn't the one doubting you are from Sweden" don't you understand? Are you really that stupid? Are you hallucinating again? When I said that there were two posters here who had met you in person and could verify your accent, I was defending you from the allegation that you aren't from Sweden.

Since this is your response, then you know exactly where you can stick your Swedish passport.

I was upset because Forum members were being very impatient. It had only been a few days after the questions were posted and Christmas of all things.

What part of "I apologize for the confusion" don't you understand?

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

skeen:

Oh, there will be words. Lots, and lots of words. I think she knows she doesn't have it.

All the words are from when I reply to all the words coming to me from accusations and questions. When I don't reply, I get criticized for that as well. Everything I do is wrong.

UncaYimmy:

What progress, if any, have you made regarding checking to see if you can detect circumcisions and breast implants from behind?

I am arranging a study in which I will get to view volunteers who I have not met before.

Miss Kitt:

It's sad, really. I thought we had someone who honestly wanted to see what was going on with an anomalous experience in their life. I've had those; I believed that "something was going on"; I did some limited testing with friends; and BOOM! Game over, no ability. If I didn't have someone in the room that knew the "right" answer, I didn't get it. Some kind of unintentional reading coupled with psychomotor effect (if that's the right term).

? What? Disregard the other topics and let's focus on the claim I am here to have tested. I do honestly want to see what's going on with an unusual experience in my life. What do you mean "no ability"? I haven't shown that? I've detected plenty of perceptions that were confirmed as accurate by means other than me asking the person, so I have not falsified possible ESP yet, and if you have then please let me know what grounds you have for that and share it with us. Unintentional reading and psychomotor effect? What?

It's too bad Anita isn't willing to do the simple and obvious self-test of going to a mall or the student union building and--without trying to verify if they are correct or not--see what kind of non-obvious physical issues ping her radar. As, tonsillectomies (there should be plenty in a college population); appendectomies; broken bones that have healed. She seems to be able to simultaneously claim that she has always been correct when she's been able to verify, AND that she doesn't know what she can see. If she has been infallible to date, then if she sees it she should consider it testable.

But I'm willing to do that! Good point though, that if I think I can see it, then it should be testable as such. I think I might have to adopt that reasoning in order to make better progress in this claim. I've been working under the reasoning that once I identify what I appear to be able to do, that I then have to gain experience with the accuracy of those perceptions known before I can say anything about how I claim to be able to perceive accurate information. I want to confirm first that I feel confident that it will perform on a test as well as it did in everyday experience. Claiming to have medical perceptions is nothing, but claiming to have accurate medical perceptions is interesting.

If I think I can detect vasectomy that alone would never have compelled me toward a test. The fact that it was confirmed accurate is what moves me toward a test. Otherwise the claim would be, "I think I can detect health conditions". I want my claim to be "I believe I can detect health conditions". I'd rather have the study to gather experience where accuracy has been established before I make a very specific claim.

Thank you for a well-thought of cereal test procotol. I will consider taking up the Lactobacillus tests again.

stanfr:

Anita can simply go to a group of skeptics (as she has already apparently done) and demonstrate her ability to them. If they are convinced, which they surely will be if she actually can do what she says she can do, she won't even need to defend herself, cause there will be a group of skeptics who will be her biggest advocates!

Maybe at our next local skeptics meeting there will be the chance of demonstrating my claim.

Ashles:

Actually that is a really good point. One of the most common traits of applicants is a desire for attention. At the moment I think that is the only purpose this thread is serving.

It's not my fault that my claim involves other people. I have already made plans to go to a mall and write down the perceptions I have. It is a good idea and at least some form of progress.

Anita - I don't have any more questions for you, and, despite your lengthy responses I don't think we are receiving particularly useful information any more.

PHEW, and agreed.

Until you conduct some independent testing I don't think you have anything further to add on the subject of your claim.

I couldn't agree more. I've just been replying to everyone else's talk. I'm glad it's finally over and we can concentrate on the claim and the tests. No more false accusations, no more off-topic discussions about my credibility, whether I'm from Sweden, whether I'm studying two B.S. degrees, whether to include women on a vasectomy detection test. I couldn't be happier.

It is quite ridiculous that a proper test is still not happening. The lactobacillus test, even if imperfect (and not considered a challenge test in itself), might have yielded useful information and would at least be a demonstration that Anita is genuinely acting in good faith and keen to rtesearch the 'ability' in all its aspects.

I wanted to focus on my main claim which I am working on having tested. I've confirmed with the cereal tests what I already knew, that the other perceptions such as bacteria occur much less frequently than medical perceptions, and I've found that I get very uncomfortable headache and nausea from the effort in chemical identification tests. I also found that my skill is reduced proportionally as the headache and discomfort appear and forcing these perceptions and for the time it takes to have an entire test was uncomfortable. Medical perceptions are never as infrequent or difficult to form.

As it stands this claim should be considered pretty much over as it looks like no test will ever happen.

I have not terminated my investigation yet. I am proceeding toward a test in the way that I know how. I'm sorry if that is not fast enough.

Locknar:

Pursuit of (vague and otherwise undefined) "health" issues is allows for all kinds of what I've refereed to as "wiggle" and does nothing but feed her belief she has "powers."

My belief is not that I have powers. My belief is that I have medical perceptions with apparent accuracy and my belief is that a proper test will establish the actual accuracy. There will be no wiggle room on a test. A person either has had heart bypass surgery or hasn't. No room for interpretation.

What is most disappointing in all this is folks she has told, such as teachers, friends, etc., have done nothing to dissuade her.

And that's because I've made accurate health descriptions and no reason has appeared to conclude no ability. I think the only thing we're all upset about here (including me) is the time it takes to make any progress in this investigation. I am seriously interested in testing my main claim.

Old man:

I detect plenty of medical information in all persons…

Anita, please, stop exaggerating.

Plenty of health information, such as in this hypothetical case, bad eyesight, discomfort from swallowing, an injury to the right shoulder which makes some specific movement painful, slow heartbeat, past case of asthma, the presence of certain medical derivatives in the liver, enlarged prostate, bad knees... I also detect plenty of less interesting information that I never even mention, plenty of details which, if I told them, would "prove" nothing since everyone has them to some extent, like if I said "mild vitamin A deficiency". When it comes to significant health information that could be useful for a test, I do not detect plenty of those in all persons, maybe that's what you meant.

Anita, I mentioned your use of hyperbole in an earlier post. Maybe DG is trying to get you to TELL THE TRUTH, without all of YOUR exaggerations!

Whoa!! When on earth did I exaggerate! Give me ONE example! My statements might be unusual or outrageous, but I'm not exaggerating.

And, your exaggerated claims are sometimes nonsensical, too.

How rude. Give me one example.

Maybe we’re making progress. Are you admitting that it’s possible that your anecdotes might be just a little, (oh, how should I put this?) exaggerated?

No that is not possible. My anecdotes are absolutely not exaggerated. Not even a little.
They've happened exactly as I said.

Anita, you are really, really determined to drag this fiasco out just as long as you can, aren’t you?

Fiasco? I'm investigating my medical perceptions. I'm proud of myself. Some of you are just impatient. And I intend to reach a definite conclusion as soon as I can, but without compromising the quality of tests. I will not involve my local skeptics group in arranging a test until I am clearer about what ailments and what test conditions to use, because that's the advice they gave me. This is all about taking the everyday experience of my claim and trying it out in new ways so that I can take it into the laboratory setting. No fiasco there. Just impatience.

The simplest way to ‘study’ your ability will be to just do what you normally do, using some volunteers and your two ‘skeptic’ witnesses. Then, after you do that, all you’ll have to do is tell us that you now realize you really don’t have this power, and you can move on to ghost hunting!

The study serves this purpose, although we must allow either outcome and not be biased toward one outcome over the other.

No, just show us that you can do anything at all, even if it’s indistinguishable from cold reading!

You've got it! I'll show you. Patience.

Anita, it’s called GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease). Damn near half of the people in the US suffer symptoms occasionally. You guessed right on ONE coin flip! WOW!

Guessing doesn't account for the majority of my medical perceptions. The fact that some of my perceptions could be guessed with high odds in a guesser's favor does not conclude that it was the case of a guess. That is where statistics comes in. Just wait and see study and test results. You're getting ahead of yourself.

No, you had a high probability of guessing right.

What are the odds of guessing a 0.0006 m² affected area out of the entire 1.9 m² average surface area of a man? Is it about 1 in 3100? What about guessing the type of discomfort experienced there, out of all possible discomforts? One in many many. If it was a guess, it was a very good one.

Here, I’ll save you some time. Just quote this - “I’ve NEVER, EVER, met ANYONE who was suffering from this!11!!” (And - never listened to the radio, never saw a TV commercial, never saw any ads for antacids, blah, blah, blah.)

What? How would that be useful in a paranormal investigation? I know this is probably pun, but try to refrain from it to keep things clear here.

When I get a few minutes, sure, I could right up a protocol.

No. I meant set up the test for me. Participants and all. That's the real work involved.

But, you know damned well that I meant in person, don’t you? Stop the ‘silly little airhead girl’ act, OK? You’re ‘brilliant’, remember? You’re a ‘serious scientist’. Act like one.

Do you realize that you're insulting a real person here? Maybe because this is all taking place over the internet and in typed words it somehow doesn't seem real to some of you, but I'm a somebody here who came to get some help in discussing how to arrange a test for a paranormal claim, and there's been too many hostile and negative comments, accusations, and personal attacks. What on earth makes you say such negative things? What's wrong with you? Why do I feel like I'm being under attack? I've opened myself up to you guys and done my very best to be fully honest, I've answered every question and I've been polite and friendly throughout. Would you really speak to me like this in person?

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

desertgal:

I don't think Anita is evil, either. Just irresponsible as hell, and completely bogus.

What makes me irresponsible? The fact that I do not offer psychic readings openly and for a fee even though I'd be good at acchieving the type of apparent accuracy that clients would be very happy with? Or that I'm willing to openly analyze my perceptions according to the scientific method and prepared to accept the conclusion of no ESP? Or that I'm spending time planning how to conduct the study and the test in a way where no participants are at risk of getting hurt? And, there's nothing "bogus" about perceiving medical images. Most people for instance experience times where they have random thoughts in their head that they can't control, or hear music playing in their head that they can't stop. I have neither. And the fact that I am interested in investigating these perceptions is because they have had apparent accuracy, not because I'd want them to be accurate if they were not. I think I'm being rational about an experience that on its own compels me toward investigating it further.

We all volunteer medical advice to other people. The difference, of course, is that we all don't pretend (or believe) to have a super ability to be able to "see" into other people's bodies in order to diagnose medical problems, and we don't claim a 100% accuracy rate on previous conclusions based solely on that "ability".

I don't pretend to see inside people. I believe that I might, but I have not allowed myself to conclude that I do. The only reason I claim a 100% accuracy so far, is because that is what I have experienced. With that I do not claim that I will never encounter inaccuracy up ahead, or that the actual accuracy would always be 100% up ahead. I am open to experiencing inaccuracy, would it happen.

If I had said, "I 'see' your child's tonsils, and they are inflamed-trust me, I've never been wrong", that's a different story. That's not suggesting a possible medical diagnosis - it is making a certain one. In my opinion, that IS irresponsible.

I see what you mean. The type of medical information you might give is all based on external perception and signs that you can detect, such as the scent of tonsillitis, which then other people can confirm on their own. The problem is that my perceptions are ones that others do not have and can not confirm in the same way.

I never express my medical diagnose in the way you suggested. I NEVER say TRUST ME, I'VE NEVER BEEN WRONG. What I say, is that I think I see a medical condition, I describe it. Once I've done that I check with the person whether they have any awareness of it themselves, or whether there are any detectable symptoms. I ALWAYS say, that "Although I've never been wrong, we can not take this as truth, just in case this time I'm wrong. Treat what I say as nonsense, and trust what you've already known about your health, and trust your own knowledge and what conventional medicine can tell you. Do not take any of what I say as truth. Just tell me what you can about the accuracy of my descriptions as you know it." That is what I say. Please do not waste time accusing me of not saying this because this is the truth of what I say.

The way I handle my attempts of psychic medical diagnose is in my opinion very responsible. You haven't seen how I do it. You are speculating and getting carried away with your imaginations of how it might take place. Now who's delusional?

As well, if we claim this super ability, and we test it on people with the primary objective of proving it exists, as opposed to the interest of their health being the primary objective, isn't that also irresponsible? Whether the perception is accurate or not, and whether they sign a waiver or not, the person may still have the anxiety and worry over a negative 'diagnosis' until they can get to a doctor and confirm it either way.

Why don't you listen to what I'm saying before you make conclusions about how I act? That would avoid some of the misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions you then throw at me and argue at me about. My objective is not to prove that I have ESP. My objective is to find out whether I do. Please don't make me find plenty of quotes from where I state this very explicitly. Of course the interest of people's health is my objective! You're talking to a girl who wanted to become a doctor of medicine just to help people, not to make a ton of money! You should hear most of the pre-meds, all they want is money! I'm very responsible with how I express my medical perceptions. I will elaborate on this if necessary.

skeen:

Wait, I've been largely ignoring her walls of text, but now she's communicating with spirits?! Oh for **** sake. I'm done with this loon. This thread should be closed. This woman is ******* insane.

You don't know that. You don't have to stay if that bothers you, but let's stay on topic.

Geez. At least she was trying to shoehorn her ability into pseudo-science, but you're right, amidst her other claims, it is too much. So much for a science student!

I'm very professional and responsible as a science-student, and none of my unusual perceptions affect how I perform as a student or in my career.

skeen]You are not working on it. No-one believes that anymore, and you have lost all credibility in your transparent stalling, and copping out of the most basic of things that would immediately dismiss this alleged ability.

You may be able to fool yourself into thinking you're cooperating, but I don't think that even them most patient of us believes that anymore. I think you're a liar.

I am working on it. I'm waiting for a response from the IIG West, I'm eagerly anticipating our next meeting with the local skeptics group, I'm typing up the procedure of the study, I'm discussing with y'all guys, I'm planning to go to the mall to document perceptions, I'm considering asking a hospital or something similar whether it is possible for me to conduct a study there even though I expect a negative answer. The only thing I'm not doing is standing on a soapbox and asking everyone to come and let me do a psychic reading on them in the purpose of a study or test. I don't know yet whether that is legal, and I'd make a fool of myself and do damage to my life. I am not a liar.

desertgal:

Nobody. believes. you.

Of course not. I haven't even presented any evidence yet. It's just the belief that I'd not have ESP that gets me. I've presented no evidence against ESP. Why can't we be objective?

What part of "I wasn't the one doubting you are from Sweden" don't you understand? Are you really that stupid? Are you hallucinating again? When I said that there were two posters here who had met you in person and could verify your accent, I was defending you from the allegation that you aren't from Sweden.

Since this is your response, then you know exactly where you can stick your Swedish passport.

How absolutely rude, what's wrong with you?

I was upset because Forum members were being very impatient. It had only been a few days after the questions were posted and Christmas of all things.

What part of "I apologize for the confusion" don't you understand?

I was merely explaining why I hadn't answered to UncaYimmy's post in the other thread like 5 minutes after his had been posted.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

Happy New Years 2009 everyone!
May all your dreams come true this year! ​

 

[desertgal]

No more false accusations, no more off-topic discussions about my credibility

Your credibility IS part of the topic. Why can't you understand that? WE don't know you. We only know what we read. To make a fair assessment of ONE thing you say, we have to take EVERYTHING you say into consideration - and what we've read here, in total, appears, to a logical mind, to be nothing more than fantasy spinning. Delusions. Hallucinations. Whatever you want to call it. ALL your claims, taken together, remove any reasonable doubt, and gives no one here one single, logical reason to believe anything you say about your "main claim". You've offered no proof, no documented examples, no videotapes, no corroborating statements - nothing. On ANY of your claims. Only some campfire stories that are backed up with...nothing.

The picture you present of yourself - and we look at the WHOLE picture that you present with all your words, not just the part you want us to - is that you are the most extraordinary being in the history of mankind. You commune with ghosts, you solve crimes, you medically diagnose people with one look, you communicate telepathically with animals and mythical creatures, and you are an extraterrestrial incarnation. It's all so unbelievably delusional that it would be funny if it didn't make it so apparent that you, as Skeen and I have both pointed out, need help.

Are these false accusations? Not hardly.Is your credibility off topic? No, because it is relevant to your claim. Do you have any credibility left? No.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Of course not. I haven't even presented any evidence yet. It's just the belief that I'd not have ESP that gets me. I've presented no evidence against ESP. Why can't we be objective?

ESP has never been proven to exist. Therefore, no test exists to *disprove* it. No flying pig with mind control powers has been proven to exist. Therefore, we cannot disprove that a flying pig is controlling your mind.

Think of it this way. Magnetism is known to exist. Suppose I demonstrate that I can make an object slide several inches across the table into my hand. I can disprove that I am using magnetism by moving a wooden object. To prove that nothing magnetic is hidden in the wood, we can use a very strong magnet to move a piece of iron. Under the same circumstances we can demonstrate that my wooden object doesn't move.

Thus we have disproved magnetism.

The objective scientist knows that ESP has never been repeatedly demonstrated under properly controlled conditions. So, objectively, how can ESP even be a consideration? Why should it get equal billing with known explanations?

Please answer this question: Do you need to rule out by either deductive reasoning or experiment all possible known explanations before considering that you have discovered a new force?

 

[desertgal]

desertgal:
What makes me irresponsible? <snip>

Those comments weren't addressed to you. They were in response to a question from Old Man to me. I've stated several times why I believe you are irresponsible. I'm not doing it again. If you don't agree with it, tough. As for "now who's delusional", you wouldn't recognize delusional if it walked up and smacked you upside the head, so you are hardly someone to be attaching that label to anyone else.

How absolutely rude, what's wrong with you?

What is wrong with me? I defended you on an issue, and, twice in response now, you attacked me for making an accusation that I didn't make. That's pretty rude in itself.

Please. Talk to a doctor. With college, with this, that, and the other-your stress level is probably sky high. Delusions can be manifestations of stress or they could be an indication of a more serious problem. There are ways to help. Please. It won't hurt you, and it might help you.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

desertgal:
I think that my claim will prove itself in tests, and the evidence from test results will speak for itself. No amount of good credibility will save me if I fail the test. No amount of bad credibility will take the passing of a test away from me if I pass the test. You skeptics search for reasons to lower my credibility, even when reasons aren't there! That I'm lying about studying two degrees at the same time, that I'm lying about Swedisn origins, that I'm lying about who I've told about my perceptions, and all else! Can't we focus on the claim and testing the claim? Who I am as a person, and whether I'm interested in ghost investigations on my spare time is irrelevant to this case! These become just personal attacks and do not help to progress this investigation.

Even if my credibility were reduced to nothing in your eyes it would not change the way the study and the tests will be carried out and analyzed.

You've offered no proof, no documented examples, no videotapes, no corroborating statements - nothing.

But those are on their way! The problem here really seems to be impatience.

Please. Talk to a doctor. With college, with this, that, and the other-your stress level is probably sky high. Delusions can be manifestations of stress or they could be an indication of a more serious problem. There are ways to help. Please. It won't hurt you, and it might help you.

That I have these perceptions is not a health problem. They occur most frequently and most easily when the stress level is the lowest. And they seem to accurately depict actual health information, and that is the only reason I'm bringing them out "into the world" at all to find out more about them. That in itself is a scientific inquiry and I find that quite honorable, and I'm approaching this the best way I can and as fast as I can.

UncaYimmy:

ESP has never been proven to exist. Therefore, no test exists to *disprove* it. No flying pig with mind control powers has been proven to exist. Therefore, we cannot disprove that a flying pig is controlling your mind.

And that's why none of you should conclude or believe that I do not have ESP.

Please answer this question: Do you need to rule out by either deductive reasoning or experiment all possible known explanations before considering that you have discovered a new force?

Actually what I want to acchieve with the tests are first of all what the accuracy of the perceptions are under a test setting. The source of the perceptions can then be further investigated, but the test should be composed in such a way that if I pass the test, there is an unknown and therefore "paranormal" origin of the perceptions.

************
By the way everyone, please stop being hostile. It's uncomfortable and does not lead to any progress. What if I spoke in that manner to you? I've informed a JREF Moderator about some of your posts, so please, stop.

 

[chillzero]

Everyone, please keep your posts civil.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Locknar]

If I think I can detect vasectomy that alone would never have compelled me toward a test. The fact that it was confirmed accurate is what moves me toward a test.

As you've mentioned you claim to have done this one time; hardly impressive. More on this below.

My belief is not that I have powers. My belief is that I have medical perceptions with apparent accuracy and my belief is that a proper test will establish the actual accuracy.

You have made vague medical "perceptions" and then interpret them to fit reality; just as you have done here and been wrong (ie. the "small intestine" discussion).

There will be no wiggle room on a test. A person either has had heart bypass surgery or hasn't. No room for interpretation.

No room for interpretation? Hardly true; "medical issues" are rarely cut and dry (where the "cereal test" would be) but I think you realize this and are using the "wiggle" it introduces as a buffer.

For example....

On the topic of vascetomy...lets say, for the sake of argument, your campfire story (ie. YOUR recounting of a uncorroborated event based on YOUR perception) actually happened. Vasectomy is a rather generic term applying to a number of surgical/medical techniques to sterilize a man.

These procedures include no-scalpel (keyhole) vasectomies, "open ended", "normal" (which has several variations such as the use of stitches, heat, clamps, section removal, etc.). (reference)

Exactly what kind of vasectomy did he have, what exactly did you "see" that lead you to conclude a vasectomy had occurred? This is a rhetorical question, as anything you say now is well after the fact.

You mentioned heart bypass surgery; so you would NOT include angioplasty, stents, high blood-pressure, heart attacks, pace makers, heart transplant, or any other medical issue related to the cardio-vascular system?

As with "vasectomy", "heart bypass" is a generic term used to describe a wide array of procedures - specifically what would you claim to be able to "see", specifically what would you claim as a "hit" or "miss"?

Lastly...on the topic of your anecdotes/campfire stories. You persist in claiming they are (in effect) 100% accurate; this is simply not possible and I think you know this.

Your anecdotes are based on YOUR perception of events - by default YOUR perception taints the anecdote. This is why real scientists keep logs/diaries, corroborate events, etc.

For all you know...people have been forewarned of your "power" (ie. "my friend things she can "see" medical issues...just play along"), and are doing just that - playing along.

Of course you'll vehemently deny this, but without corroboration, specifics, etc. you can not summarily rules this out.

If you want your anecdotes to carry any weight above "campfire story" you need to include specficis...WHO are these people (or have they all conveniently asked you not mention their names)....for example.

 

[desertgal]

desertgal:
I think that my claim will prove itself in tests, and the evidence from test results will speak for itself. No amount of good credibility will save me if I fail the test. No amount of bad credibility will take the passing of a test away from me if I pass the test.

You are missing the point. At this point, it doesn't matter to most people here whether you take the test or not. Your credibility is gone. Your claims are fantasy. As UncaYimmy points out in the interview thread, nearly everything you claim to do with this sooper power is equivalent to what most of us can do without a sooper power. A test will not reveal anything that most people here don't already know. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

You skeptics search for reasons to lower my credibility, even when reasons aren't there! That I'm lying about studying two degrees at the same time, that I'm lying about Swedisn origins, that I'm lying about who I've told about my perceptions, and all else!

Wrong. The damage to your credibility comes from YOUR claims. The allegation that you were lying about studying two degrees at once has been disproved-and it was a misunderstanding to begin with, which was almost immediately corrected. The allegation that you are not Swedish has been disproved. The confusion about who you who told about your perceptions does remain - largely because there is a difference of opinion over what constitutes "a close friend". Obviously, something we aren't going to agree on, so most of us have moved on.

But, the fantasy element in your claims is still solidly apparent. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

Can't we focus on the claim and testing the claim?

Why should "we" focus on YOUR claim and YOUR test, when it is apparent to most of us that your claim is nothing more than imagination gone wild? We've offered suggestions, we've offered protocols - and you've ignored them all. Proving YOUR claim in any direction is YOUR responsibility. Frankly, again, as evidenced by a multitude of posts, I don't think anyone here cares much anymore whether you get tested or not. As I already said, any test will not reveal anything most people here don't already know, and the test/study/survey protocols you keep coming up with, while ignoring everyone else's, are ones that give you plenty of wiggle room to continue perpetuating your fantasy. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

Who I am as a person, and whether I'm interested in ghost investigations on my spare time is irrelevant to this case!

When did I say it was? I said your claims, taken altogether, are relevant to your credibility, and your credibility is relevant to this claim. Not to be rude, but I don't care who you are as a person- I'm never going to meet you. I don't care if you go out hunting ghosts or deer or a three toed sloth. The interest of people here only extends as far as what you present on this forum-and what you have presented on this forum isn't credible. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

Even if my credibility were reduced to nothing in your eyes it would not change the way the study and the tests will be carried out and analyzed.

No, it won't, I agree. But, most people here don't care anymore how the study and the tests are carried out. That's YOUR responsibility. YOU are the only one here who wants answers-and I think the only answer you will find acceptable is that your sooper power truly exists. Most of US don't expect that a test will reveal anything we don't already know. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

That I have these perceptions is not a health problem.

Are you a psychiatrist? Are you a psychologist? How do you know? You are having a wide variety of fantasies and hallucinations, which is a pretty good indication that something isn't right. I'm not suggesting that you need to see a doctor to be cruel, Anita, but out of concern. I'm twice your age, I've learned a few things along the way that college doesn't teach you and I think you need help. I would say exactly that to any one of my kids if I heard them making the same outrageous claims that you have.

They occur most frequently and most easily when the stress level is the lowest.

So? That doesn't mean they aren't a manifestation of cumulative stress.

And they seem to accurately depict actual health information

No. According to you, and you only, "they" seem to accurately depict health information. The fact is, "they" are, most likely, as UncaYimmy has pointed out, NOT the source of your conclusions. So, what is the point of discussing it any further? We are at an impasse.

and that is the only reason I'm bringing them out "into the world" at all to find out more about them.

To what purpose? You've shown a complete disregard to opinions, and suggestions, and protocols from everyone here that you have shared this alleged ability with. You appear to be only interested in proving that your alleged ability is what you already believe it is. Why share them with the world at all, since nothing will change your mind that this alleged ability exists?

By the way everyone, please stop being hostile. It's uncomfortable and does not lead to any progress. What if I spoke in that manner to you?

You HAVE spoken in that manner to me. Did I run and cry to a moderator? No. If you come on here and spin a fantasy, and then shoot down any and all opinions about it, then you have to expect a certain amount of exasperation in response. People don't have a lot of patience when it comes to being expected to feed someone else's fantasies.

 

[desertgal]

These procedures include no-scalpel (keyhole) vasectomies, "open ended", "normal" (which has several variations such as the use of stitches, heat, clamps, section removal, etc.).

Bet every guy who reads that winces and covers their crotch with their hands.

For all you know...people have been forewarned of your "power" (ie. "my friend things she can "see" medical issues...just play along"), and are doing just that - playing along.

This is a very good point, and, also, playing along can happen even without forewarning. For example, most folks here remember the Sylvia Browne segment on Montel which involved the widow of the 9-11 firefighter. At the end of the segment, when Browne made her outrageous allusion to the "water" she "saw" the man in being from fire hoses in the WTC, the widow didn't vocalize her scorn or her disbelief at the suggestion. She didn't castigate Browne for being completely incorrect. She simply gave a small nod and sat down.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I said, "ESP has never been proven to exist. Therefore, no test exists to *disprove* it. No flying pig with mind control powers has been proven to exist. Therefore, we cannot disprove that a flying pig is controlling your mind."

You said, "And that's why none of you should conclude or believe that I do not have ESP."

That makes perfect sense. Based on your logic the following theories are still on the table.

* A flying pig is controlling your mind.
* Your mother implanted a chip in your head as part of an Illuminati plot. Her "sponsors" are controlling your mind with this chip.
* An extraterrestrial entity is using your body as a host. The last host body was a doctor, which explains the medical knowledge.
* You are not a human. You are an alien who is able to present human DNA, but in reality you have a special organ capable of detecting vibrational information. This organ is located in your sinuses, but is undetectable by human technology.

If you accept those theories as being on the table, then I will understand why you accept ESP as being on the table and stop bugging you about it.

 

[skeen]

I said, "ESP has never been proven to exist. Therefore, no test exists to *disprove* it. No flying pig with mind control powers has been proven to exist. Therefore, we cannot disprove that a flying pig is controlling your mind."

You said, "And that's why none of you should conclude or believe that I do not have ESP."

How is it that we, who (presumably) have no background in Science, are able to grasp logic better than Anita, who claims to be studying it?

I have no idea how she could possibly think that was a logical line of thought. But in the context of everything else she has said, it makes perfect sense I suppose!

This is what woo woo's lack, the basic ability to think logically. It truly is what separates them from us. This is why they speak so much twaddle, and yet have convinced themselves they've raised proper arguments.

 

[Ashles]

How is it that we, who (presumably) have no background in Science, are able to grasp logic better than Anita, who claims to be studying it?

I have to say this is why I asked the questions about Anita's degree. She is in her third year yet has demonstrated little to no knowledge of robust experimentation, statistical analysis, logical assumption or really anything relevant.
Her answers have not struck me as different from someone who had read a little science on the internet and remembered a few buzzwords.

Is it time for recipes yet?

 

[skeen]

I have to say this is why I asked the questions about Anita's degree. She is in her third year yet has demonstrated little to no knowledge of robust experimentation, statistical analysis, logical assumption or really anything relevant.
Her answers have not struck me as different from someone who had read a little science on the internet and remembered a few buzzwords.

Is it time for recipes yet?

Yes, I have to say that given not only her ridiculous claims, her inability to think logically seriously, seriously calls into question whether she is studying Science. I conclude that she has not.

What woo woo's often do, is invent lies to reinforce their credibility, because they think that because what they're claiming is real (in their own minds), it won't hurt. But it is these little lies that, when taken apart, leave absolutely nothing.

Look at the way Anita has copped out of proving anything. She refuses to grasp that she is literally the most incredible person in the entire world, if what she is saying is true. I tell her that she should just merely ask anyone she walks into, if she can see through them, tell them what she sees.

She retorts with asking about the legality in doing this! That's just mental! She is performing a supernatural feat that will turn the entire world on its head. If I could fly, I won't worry about no-fly zones, and use that as an excuse not to just walk the hell outside, and show people that I can fly! Somehow, I don't think anyone is going to mind that I am invading airspace!

It's as if there's some kind of second personality in her mind, steering her away from inevitable defeat. As reasonable, rational people, we all know there is no possible way she can pass the test, which makes her steering all the more transparent to everyone but herself.

It's really a kind of psychological marvel, and if she is being serious in all of this, she desperately needs help. I would venture to say she hasn't told us an ounce of truth in this entire thread, and that would be a very reasonable conclusion to come to.

I am curious about the people who met her at the skeptics meeting. How did she come off? Woo woo's have that "look" about them, like Callahan and Geller, you can tell immediately tell there's something not quite right about them.

 

[desertgal]

Yes, I have to say that given not only her ridiculous claims, her inability to think logically seriously, seriously calls into question whether she is studying Science. I conclude that she has not.

In fairness, there is an undergraduate named Anita Ikonen listed in the Physics and Optical Science Department at Univ. of North Carolina at Charlotte.This jibes with Vision for Feeling's statements through this thread.

That said, why she "demonstrates little to no knowledge of robust experimentation, statistical analysis, logical assumption or really anything relevant" baffles me as well. Especially for an "absolutely brilliant" student.

 

[skeen]

That said, why she "demonstrates little to no knowledge of robust experimentation, statistical analysis, logical assumption or really anything relevant" baffles me as well. Especially for an "absolutely brilliant" student.

Well, this is highly baffling to me as well. Her train of thought is that of a 10 year old. What she said about not being able to conclude there's no ESP is crazy.

I believe that if any single one of us skeptics here had this ability, we could find a million ways to prove it in a heartbeat! I could prove the ability right now. Anita seems completely oblivious to common sense, even!

I can't imagine she's doing well in that class. That is, if it is her. Perhaps she just stole someone's name? If not, then she has a very, very, very serious psychological issue that desperately needs to be examined.

Or, she's just a liar. I'm sure it's a bit of both. Maybe she's a compulsive liar, and she desperately seeks attention or something like that? It's not uncommon. Either way, she clearly needs therapy and I don't think this thread is helping.

EDIT: I've searched for Anita on Google, and have come across a few scientific publications that cite her as being an assistant to lab work, and whathaveyou. If this is her, it is at least who she is claiming to be, then she certainly has a psychological disorder. Pretty creepy to be honest.

 

[desertgal]

Well, this is highly baffling to me as well. Her train of thought is that of a 10 year old. What she said about not being able to conclude there's no ESP is crazy.

I believe that if any single one of us skeptics here had this ability, we could find a million ways to prove it in a heartbeat! I could prove the ability right now. Anita seems completely oblivious to common sense, even!

I think what I find most baffling is her continued insistence that many of her conclusions could not be reached by any other means than her alleged ability. Yet, even though she is a scientist, she keeps no diary of these events, or, as Locknar pointed out, no record of variables, controls, etc. I mean, as you say, it would be simple common sense to do so. If she can't rule out other sources for her information, then how can she possibly say it was ALWAYS her alleged ability?

As UncaYimmy points out in the interview thread, he can do pretty much what she claims to be able to do. Yet, in his case, it the result of proven techniques, and, in her case, it is ALWAYS the result of her sooper power. Makes no sense.

She simply recites anecdotes from memory and insists they are absolutely correct and she was 100% accurate each time. It's almost laughable. Human memory is one of the most fallible mechanisms on this planet, and she keeps no records for reference or to refresh her memory - yet her memory is ALWAYS correct and her conclusions are ALWAYS accurate? As my teenagers might say, no freakin' way.

In fairness, though, perhaps extraterrestrial incarnations of white dwarf stars have infallible memories.