Vision From Feeling

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UncaYimmy said:
PaperSkater -
Anita says that things that she does not detect should not count against her, right? Even if there is something there, if she doesn't detect it, it shouldn't count as a miss. All of the skeptics here are saying that if she fails to detect something, it counts as a miss. Anita seems to be railing against this and doesn't seem to understand why this is a problem and why we must count the "failures to detect" as a miss.

I've said this before, but it gets lost in all the noise:

Anita does not have a specific claim. Tens of thousands of words, but no specific, testable claim. You are talking hits and misses as if it is some sort of test. It is not a test. This is a study to help her determine what, if any, abilities she has. Repeatedly failing to detect an ailment doesn't mean she doesn't have any abilities - it just means she can't detect that ailment. Therefore, she won't be tested on that ailment should we ever arrive at an actual test...

Actually, it's fairly common in standardized education testing to score tests by only counting correct answers and ignoring both, incorrect answers and blanks. Such tests are usually used to assess how much one knows rather than whether one has mastered some given subject matter, and are usually norm-referenced, that is, each person's score is compared to the scores of a large group of similar test takers. So if UncaYimmy's characterization of this study is correct, then Paperskater's analogy is not apt (though it may be perfectly appropriate later, after there is a formal claim to be tested), and it should be possible to run a study in much the way Anita is requesting--except that we would also need to get a large number of volunteers to agree to be tested in the same way, so that we can statistically analyze whether or not Anita tests differently from the norm.
 
Please note that contacting forum member's colleagues, workplaces, schools, etc., in real life, can be construed as a form of harrassment. Please do not do this. I have removed some of the posts stating members have done this and moved them the moderators' area for the time being. Thank you.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
Actually, it's fairly common in standardized education testing to score tests by only counting correct answers and ignoring both, incorrect answers and blanks. Such tests are usually used to assess how much one knows rather than whether one has mastered some given subject matter, and are usually norm-referenced, that is, each person's score is compared to the scores of a large group of similar test takers. ...

Wowzah! I have never heard of that approach before.
Incorrect answers and blanks are misses. Correct answers are correct. What type of weird educational philosophy justifies not counting wrong answers?
And the second comma in your post is a mistake.
 
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Wowzah! I have never heard of that approach before.
Incorrect answers and blanks are misses. Correct answers are correct. What type of weird educational philosophy justifies not counting wrong answers?

I think you're making the mistake of assuming that it is for the purposes of giving someone a grade. It's not. Suppose you are given 100 people in need of at least some level of math instruction. You have five teachers. How might you devise a test to place them according to ability?

Pretty much with Prometheus described. The only difference between those who answer "I don't know" and those who get it wrong is that the latter don't know what they don't know. The assessment would still be useful.

In Anita's specific case her proposed protocol with the IIG did not count incorrect answers the same as "I don't know." I think that's valid when you don't really understand the mechanism. But as Prometheus said, it's incredibly unwieldy.

Suppose we had 1,000 people. Among that group were three groups of 50 each with either an appendectomy, vasectomy or a missing kidney. If we controlled for cold reading (everyone was behind an opaque screen, etc), and Anita identified 20 people from each group correctly identifying the condition and did not have *any* false positives, I'd crap my pants. I'd definitely try to figure out what the heck was going on.

Anita, of course, wanted a small group of people and wanted to be able to see them before deciding if she could read them or not. She also wanted to be able to pick any of a wide number of conditions. That's why the IIG test is dead in the water.

Going back to my example, this "study" of hers is supposed to help her figure out what conditions would be in the test and at what frequency she can detect them. What I and others have been pushing for is for her to structure it so that if there is no ability (not really "if", but whatever), it will be clearly revealed. All her changes have killed that idea.
 
Wowzah! I have never heard of that approach before.
Incorrect answers and blanks are misses. Correct answers are correct. What type of weird educational philosophy justifies not counting wrong answers?
And the second comma in your post is a mistake.

You've never heard of the GRE?
First, a raw score is computed. The raw score is the number of questions you answered correctly.

Or the ACT?
First, we count the number of questions on each test that you answered correctly. We do not deduct any points for incorrect answers.

Or the MCAT?
It is also important to note that the exam-taker will not be penalized for guessing and that the individual's raw score for each section will be determined based solely on the number of questions that the individual answers correctly.

Or the LSAT?
Because the LSAT does not assess a scoring penalty for incorrect answer choices, you should always guess on every question that you cannot complete during the allotted time.

I'm not sure what you think is weird about these or other similar tests. The way tests are scored depends on what sort of skill/knowlege you're trying to test and what you plan to do with the scores. There's nothing strange about choosing the most appropriate tool for the job at hand.

Also, the second comma in my previous post is not a mistake, as my post assumes that the reader has also read the two posts to which I referred, rendering the phrase, "incorrect answers and blanks," an inessential modification of the pronoun both. Even if you don't read it this way, the comma is optional.
 
I'm not quite sure how I need to word or format the question in order to get a response. Can anyone help me out here?

Don't ask for a moderated thread where you can work one-on-one without all the distractions of everybody asking a zillion questions at once. It doesn't work.

Don't start a thread specifically to address her protocol. It doesn't work.

Maybe if you sign up on Facebook and have an IM chat with her...

Thing is, Nathan, your question is already out of date. Not only does she have the scale on her form, she has the time period:
Now
Past Week
Month
Year
Longer

It's not clear whether the person can select more than one answer, but it certainly seems possible and even likely. Even if the person can only circle one, it's becoming quite unwieldy.

I look forward to seeing your matrix.
 
It would be a fluke if she got that right.

Now, I hurt you!!! (smacks Pharoah on the upper arm with small hand)
Bad pun! Really, really, bad pun!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled trainwreck.

ETA -- I see others have already commented on the comment. So I will add a rueful look following the arm-smack.
 
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Okay, I'm taking bets on how long Anita can stay away...no, wait, I'll start a poll. In Community... MK
 
UncaYimmy:
People will not be approached and asked to participate in the study. A sign is placed and those who read it make their own decision whether to volunteer or not. Those who are interested are then given an information page with additional information and can make a decision then. No one is approached or asked to volunteer. It is entirely up to them.

sigh, I see Anita's flounced out of here claiming she never had the opportunity to explain herself - <mrs_krabappel>Ha!</mrs_krabappel>

Yimmy's already said why this won't attract people. Anita, if you're reading this, he's right.* I've experience in trade shows both as attendee and exhibitor, and as regular guy-in-mall.

I predict Anita's in-the-park study, if it happens, will attract either no one, or a group of students who collude to all claim their left kidney is missing and they need the bathroom.

[*] He's still right, even if Anita's not reading this, btw.
 
Dear JREF Forum Skeptics,
I will not be back here for a while.


Okie dokes. Do you mind if we continue?


Everything I say is misinterpreted and I am not allowed any chance to explain.


Not at all. The vast majority of what you've had to say has been understood only too well.

But if I allow your complaint to stand, for the sake of the argument, then what conclusions would you draw from the fact that the only person in this whole thread who is constantly being misinterpreted is yourself. How is it that we can understand each other perfectly well, but we can't fathom what you're saying?

Your claim of not being allowed any chance to explain is, to be blunt, ridiculous. You have the same opportunity as all of us to create whatever explanations you wish and post them here. If your explanations so far have failed, then you need to look at the nature of those explanations, not the nature of the readership.

Your complaint of a lack of right-of-reply is further undermined by having had a specially-created and moderated thread devoted to just that purpose. It was entirely your choice not to take advantage of that concession.



Everything I say is turned into something negative and used as criticism against me intended on a personal level.


The bolding I've added indicates something closer to the truth than what you believe, although "everything" is still an exaggeration. The things you say have indeed been attacked here, but you haven't. The personal comments made about you that I recall have mostly been of the attractive, charming, intelligent and charismatic genre. No cause to complain there, Shirley.

The obvious and notable exception to this would be the increasingly numerous comments on your mental well-being, and while there's no doubt that these are indeed made at a personal level, it's important for you see that they aren't just slings and arrows, but sincere concerns.

It's a complete mystery to me, and likely to others, why you didn't seek some professional advice long ago, simply to stop our outrageous claims from piling up and interfering with the things you would rather have discussed.


When I do something it is wrong, when I do the opposite it is also wrong.


Assume that kicking a dog is wrong.

If the opposite of "kicking a dog" is "not kicking a dog" then that opposite would be right.

If the opposite of "kicking a dog" is "kicking a cat" then that opposite is also wrong.

I think it's in your unique definition of opposites that the real problem lies.



When I don't give credit to someone's work it is plagiarism.


Yep.


When I do give credit where credit is due, I am called delusional.


Nup.



When I disregard comments about my mental health when they are not relevant I am criticized.


How have you, independently of your own subjective judgement, established that your mental health has no relevance to the many extraordinary claims that you have made in the course of this thread? You need to see that it behooves you to establish your own credibility, and denying/ignoring this somewhat widespread opinion has damaged that, probably terminally.



When I listen and ask someone to elaborate that is criticized. Everything I do here is wrong, whether I do it or not.


You're just having a little tanty here and repeating yourself. Unproductive.



I have more important things to do than to waste time trying to extract some useful bits of advice among the insults and nonsense here.


Yes, you do, but I don't think you know what those things are yet.



This Forum does not serve the purpose that it was intended for.


It doesn't appear to have served Princess Anita's purpose. I think the rest of us are pretty happy with it.



I will of course continue with my paranormal investigation.


Of course you will. You made it clear from Page 1 that your belief in your abilities would continue regardless of what was discovered here. Unfortunately this was a bad starting point, and the only way you can continue is the way you have been. Backwards.



But without coming here for advice for a while. I think I can rely on the skeptics of the local FACT Skeptics Group as well as the members of the IIG West, who are in fact motivated to see me do progress in the investigation rather than become side-tracked with personal insults like has been here.


We already know how that's going to turn out, but just in case we didn't, we are fortunate in that the groups you mention have their own web presence, so we'll be able to keep up with your progress that way. You have fun, and don't worry about us too much.



It is only fair that I tell you that I will not be returning for a while. You can assume what you like, but if we are truly intending to be science-minded, objective and interested in the truth you should consider that the reasons I have given are at the very least likely.


Fair? OK.

Now, why would we assume "what we like"? Why would we assume anything? Are you concerned that there is some obvious assumption we might make? If this is the case, then why don't you address this Apparent Assumption™ now and prevent us from making it later on when you aren't here to set us straight?


What finally did it, the last straw so to speak was the following,
For instance Ravenwood but so many others and so many times repeatedly saying the same things about this delusional business (I don't mean to pick on Ravenwood specifically)


Accidental random attacks happen all the time, I'm sure. That one, however, had triple-quantum randomness in it. Caution!



It just gets tiring after some time. When I say something there is soon a question about it. When I answer the question someone misinterprets it entirely backwards and I am criticized for what they assumed of me based on that misunderstanding. When I explain that they got it all wrong and it is the other way around, I am called delusional and a liar.


You're just repeating yourself, and frothing a bit, and it's not a good look.

Why are you so sure that we are to blame for all these misinderstandings? I know that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, but let's not forget that concensus can be a valuable tool in the search for truth.

I'm pretty sure that even Galileo must have had more doubts than you profess about yourself, and you aren't quite in his league yet. Get over yourself and eliminate the obvious before you waste any more time and energy in your quest for the esoteric.



Then I provide evidence to prove what I had stated.


You have not done this.



And then once the opposite of what was first falsely assumed is understood, I am accused of that opposite. Then I am asked questions, which I answer, at which I am called delusional. Then I am told that I did not answer the question and am accused of being a liar and of avoiding questions. I provide links to where I answered before and I answer again. Then I am called delusional and am asked again and again. At some point I do not answer the same questions again. The point is, everything I do here is wrong to you guys, whether I do it or not. I don't think this is the right place to advance in my investigation.


It's the right place for an investigation or a nuclear meltdown. You're better at one of these than you are at the other.



I will answer some questions sometimes.


This is undisputed.



But stop trying to involve me in non-relevant topics of discussion. Ashles I will get to your question soon, it was the next one on my list. :) I am not avoiding it. ;)

VFF


And again true to form, we have the rapid switch from Rantosaurus to Bambi.
 
Vision from Feeling said:
Akhenaten said:
ETA: PS Do you like my picture of everybody's favourite star?

I prefer white dwarf stars.



Wikipedia said:
The visible radiation emitted by white dwarfs varies over a wide color range, from the blue-white color of an O-type main sequence star to the red of a M-type red dwarf.


The star in my avatar is Arcturus.
 
Dear JREF Forum Skeptics,
I will not be back here for a while. Everything I say is misinterpreted and I am not allowed any chance to explain. Everything I say is turned into something negative and used as criticism against me intended on a personal level. When I do something it is wrong, when I do the opposite it is also wrong. When I don't give credit to someone's work it is plagiarism. When I do give credit where credit is due, I am called delusional. When I disregard comments about my mental health when they are not relevant I am criticized. When I listen and ask someone to elaborate that is criticized. Everything I do here is wrong, whether I do it or not. I have more important things to do than to waste time trying to extract some useful bits of advice among the insults and nonsense here. This Forum does not serve the purpose that it was intended for.

I will of course continue with my paranormal investigation. But without coming here for advice for a while. I think I can rely on the skeptics of the local FACT Skeptics Group as well as the members of the IIG West, who are in fact motivated to see me do progress in the investigation rather than become side-tracked with personal insults like has been here.

It is only fair that I tell you that I will not be returning for a while. You can assume what you like, but if we are truly intending to be science-minded, objective and interested in the truth you should consider that the reasons I have given are at the very least likely.

What finally did it, the last straw so to speak was the following,
For instance Ravenwood but so many others and so many times repeatedly saying the same things about this delusional business (I don't mean to pick on Ravenwood specifically),




It just gets tiring after some time. When I say something there is soon a question about it. When I answer the question someone misinterprets it entirely backwards and I am criticized for what they assumed of me based on that misunderstanding. When I explain that they got it all wrong and it is the other way around, I am called delusional and a liar. Then I provide evidence to prove what I had stated. And then once the opposite of what was first falsely assumed is understood, I am accused of that opposite. Then I am asked questions, which I answer, at which I am called delusional. Then I am told that I did not answer the question and am accused of being a liar and of avoiding questions. I provide links to where I answered before and I answer again. Then I am called delusional and am asked again and again. At some point I do not answer the same questions again. The point is, everything I do here is wrong to you guys, whether I do it or not. I don't think this is the right place to advance in my investigation.

I will answer some questions sometimes. But stop trying to involve me in non-relevant topics of discussion. Ashles I will get to your question soon, it was the next one on my list. :) I am not avoiding it. ;)

VFF

>>>I will not be back here for a while. Everything I say is misinterpreted and I am not allowed any chance to explain. Everything I say is turned into something negative and used as criticism against me intended on a personal level.

In non VFF English: I have painted myself into a corner with my lies and feeble attempts to hoodwink the people here so its in my best interest to turn on the tears and let it die down for a while while I come up with a better strategy.

>>>I have more important things to do than to waste time trying to extract some useful bits of advice among the insults and nonsense here.

In non VFF English: You guys are tougher than I thought. I cant "woo" you with my gobbeldygook.

>>>This Forum does not serve the purpose that it was intended for.

Yes it does actually, thats why you are upset.

>>>When I answer the question someone misinterprets it entirely backwards and I am criticized for what they assumed of me based on that misunderstanding. When I explain that they got it all wrong and it is the other way around, I am called delusional and a liar.

The posts here are quite clear that this is not the case. I for one have never believed you are "delusional" nor have I called you such. I will state that you are a deliberate and willful liar and fully aware of it and exercising your own agenda regarding your "ability".

It goes back to my LE days. If you thought your gift was "letitimate" you would be bursting to show it and"prove" it. ( thats what people who "believe" do) You dance,jiggle, obfuscate and are constantly adapting. Thats a con, plain and simple. This should be renaimed the ponzi test.

>>>I don't think this is the right place to advance in my investigation.

I need to go to a woo forum to build my fanbase.
 
49 pages, 1,936 posts later, and not a shred of evidence has been presented. Anita, what you need to do is see a psychiatrist.

Anita, you are never going to prove your abilities to anybody but yourself, and the very weak minded. Here you come, to a forum of skeptics, and found that after ridiculously lengthy posts, you could prove nothing.

And yet, you are still content in your belief that you have special abilities. There isn't a single person who has posted in this thread who has not been dumbfounded by your lack of Scientific understanding, or grasp of the very basics of logical thinking.

Your apologetics, for everything, has impressed no-one, and has put no-one on your side, and yet you never stop to think, "Wait, maybe I'm wrong." Why is that?

You are in your own little world - you come here merely to back strengthen the psychological wall that you have put up to shield the truth: none of your paranormal claims are real.

Woo's always do this. They dodge, and evade for so long, that the pressure cooker gets turned up, and they leave, having proven nothing. Anita, not only are you like every other woo, you are the exact model of what a standard, run of the mill woo is.

I only hope that you will seek the help that you need, but given just how deluded you are, I certainly don't see that happening any time soon.

Another one bites the dust. We await another woo to take your place.
 
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Well I certainly underestimated Anita. I was sure she'd come back after the weekend (or whenever her ineffectual study was to take place), and say it was postponed due to weather, illness, park police, rabid dogs or something like that. She has now allowed herself the ultimate out - she never has to report her incredible, all-convincing results because we're too mean. Gag me with a bent spoon.
 
Dear JREF Forum Skeptics,
I will not be back here for a while. Everything I say is misinterpreted and I am not allowed any chance to explain.

I was wondering when this was going to happen, and it took longer than I expected. At some point, all woos feel the need to isolate themselves from contrary opinions and evidence. All they want is attention and confirmation, after all.
 
Actually, it's fairly common in standardized education testing to score tests by only counting correct answers and ignoring both, incorrect answers and blanks. Such tests are usually used to assess how much one knows rather than whether one has mastered some given subject matter, and are usually norm-referenced, that is, each person's score is compared to the scores of a large group of similar test takers. So if UncaYimmy's characterization of this study is correct, then Paperskater's analogy is not apt (though it may be perfectly appropriate later, after there is a formal claim to be tested), and it should be possible to run a study in much the way Anita is requesting--except that we would also need to get a large number of volunteers to agree to be tested in the same way, so that we can statistically analyze whether or not Anita tests differently from the norm.
Hi Prometheus.
I don't know if you have been following the whole thread, but we know this study isn't a test as such.

However it has been declared by Anita herself to have at least 2 goals
1) To further ascertain the extent/limitations of her claimed ability
2) In here own words "In the case there is no ability or skill in reading health information by looking at people, neither a paranormal skill or a cold reading skill, then the goal is to falsify such a non-ability at this stage of investigation so that elaborate tests need not be arranged for later on"

In both instances there needs to be some form of definition of what will be considered meaningful information.
If every answer is 'Indeterminate' what use would the study be?

In the tests you describe I assume the person being tested would not be allowed to mark the test themselves and, I assume that, even on answers where they had actually put a response they would not be allowed to judge the accuracy of their own answer.

So in order that this study yields meaningful infpormation there must be some form of tolerance as to what answers will be considered significant or not.
We have already seen that if a 2 is given as an answer by Anita (and by inference also a 1) it cannot be seen as incorrect, no matter what the subject actually put.
So it is important for Anita to set, for herself, some form of boundaries as to what she is going to consider a pretty good Hit, a complete Miss, and what will be the area she considers indeterminate.

Without setting that before hand the results can be interpreted any way she chooses and will therefore have rendered the whole study meaningless. Nothing can be learnt from such a study.
And Anita has repeatedly stated her intent is to learn something from this study.

I am disappointed that Anita has chosen to repeatedly respond at length to all the posts that she declares irrelevant and off the point, to explain to them all that she considers them irrelevant and off the point when she only wants to talk about the study.
Then repeatedly ignores my questions specifically relating to the study.
She says she is now leaving the thread, but will respond to my question next? How can she if she is leaving the thread?

Anita please, if you want to leave this thread for a while that is no problem, but please answer my analysis question before you do, and before the study takes place.

If nothing else I promise I (and I hope some others) would consider it a gesture of goodwill on your part to demonstrate your genuine commitment to finding out the truth behind what you claim.
 
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