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Utrecht shooting

Eddie Dane said:
I'm watching Gomorrah, a very gritty TV series about the Italian Mafia. These guys have some similarities (minus the religiously motivated violence). Selling heroin to kids on the one hand and being super religious on the other. It's more tribal identity than moral philosophy.
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It's more about mentally unhinged individuals who have lived a violent, unsatisfying and anxious life finding something that resembles meaning, discipline and, perhaps most importantly, redemption in religion.

Not only shall all their sins be forgiven if they renounce wicked immoral ways, they shall also be rewarded in the afterlife for all eternity if they enact god's will.

It's not hard to see why so many find that more appealing than just trudging ahead with what they realize is a pointless, meaningless and often short life.
 
Arcade22 said:
God dammit people i need to know whether this is terrorism or not. If it were just some random nutjob that snapped i could rest easy but if it were terrorism I'd have trouble sleeping at night!
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In that case you just have to wait. Learn to live with disappointments, as they say. Nobody is in any obligation to provide you with your needed 'tidy in a box' solutions.

It will all take some time before everything is completely clear and I have no doubt that the police is doing everything with their best possible abilities.
 
McHrozni said:
I heard on non-English media the police found a letter in the trunk of the suspects' car that makes terrorist motive the main line of inquiry at this point. Can you confirm?

McHrozni
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Yes that can be confirmed. It is not known what was in that letter, though and when he wrote it.
 
Eddie Dane said:
The guy's motives are a jumbled mess. He's a druggie, a rapist and petty thief. But his use of language in the old video of him suggests he's also a Muslim fundamentalist. We've seen this combination many times where a petty criminal turns into a pious ideologue. If his motive is Jihad, it would not be an unfamiliar pattern.

I'm watching Gomorrah, a very gritty TV series about the Italian Mafia. These guys have some similarities (minus the religiously motivated violence). Selling heroin to kids on the one hand and being super religious on the other. It's more tribal identity than moral philosophy.
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There is but one difference: Islam (as described in the holy texts) allows redemption through acts of violence against the unbelievers. Catholic doctrine and holy texts do not. Catholic doctrine allows redemption through pennance, but not by taking a gun and shooting up a few unbelievers in the name of the Almightly (who could totally do it himself if he so wanted).

I suspect this is the main reason why bad people of Islamic faith turn to violence for the sake of violence several orders of magnitude more often than bad people of other faiths do.

In other news, by using the cam footage of a mass murder for anti-Western propaganda Erdogan landed firmly in vermin territory.

McHrozni
 
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erwinl said:
Yes that can be confirmed. It is not known what was in that letter, though and when he wrote it.
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Yay. :mad:

It's no wonder Islam has a bad reputation. At this point the mental gymnastics needed to claim it's undeserved requires you to be an Olympic-level gymnast and an Oscar frontrunner to boot.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
There is but one difference: Islam (as described in the holy texts) allows redemption through acts of violence against the unbelievers. Catholic doctrine and holy texts do not. Catholic doctrine allows redemption through pennance, but not by taking a gun and shooting up a few unbelievers in the name of the Almightly (who could totally do it himself if he so wanted).

I suspect this is the main reason why bad people of Islamic faith turn to violence for the sake of violence several orders of magnitude more often than bad people of other faiths do.

In other news, by using the cam footage of a mass murder for anti-Western propaganda Erdogan landed firmly in vermin territory.

McHrozni
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Crusades anyone?
 
Planigale said:
Crusades anyone?
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*sigh*

... were plan to win over the Christian Holy land back to Christendom, not a plot to kill as many non-believers as possible, for the sake of killing non-believers.

If you wish to pursue this line of inquiry further you'll need to provide a list of Italian mafiosi who went on a Chruch-sanctioned Crusade. Feel free to do so in a response to this post.

McHrozni
 
Planigale said:
Crusades anyone?
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Don't have to go that far back. Extremists Christians still regularly engage in violence in the US. They bomb and shoot up Planned Parenthood clinics with some regularity, for example, and had a nice spree of doctor assassinations in the recent past.
 
McHrozni said:
*sigh*

... were plan to win over the Christian Holy land back to Christendom, not a plot to kill as many non-believers as possible, for the sake of killing non-believers.

If you wish to pursue this line of inquiry further you'll need to provide a list of Italian mafiosi who went on a Chruch-sanctioned Crusade. Feel free to do so in a response to this post.

McHrozni
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That just seems like an extra step, but the end result is the same. They were religiously inspired to take back the holy land, which they felt was achieved by slaughtering the non believers living there. Just like the inquisition wanted to convert people, and torture was the way to go.

If violence against unbelievers is really encouraged in the Quran, then the large majority of Muslims including many influential imams and scholars have something wrong when they say they don't see that and they see the opposite.

I suspect you're referring to a particular passage which is often cited out of context as a call to general violence against unbelievers but which is held in context within Islam to refer to a specific historical conflict.
 
McHrozni said:
There is but one difference: Islam (as described in the holy texts) allows redemption through acts of violence against the unbelievers. Catholic doctrine and holy texts do not. Catholic doctrine allows redemption through pennance, but not by taking a gun and shooting up a few unbelievers in the name of the Almightly (who could totally do it himself if he so wanted).
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Except of course for that whole crusades thing. Then act of violence against unbelievers was a sure ticket to heaven.
 
McHrozni said:
*sigh*

... were plan to win over the Christian Holy land back to Christendom, not a plot to kill as many non-believers as possible, for the sake of killing non-believers.
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Albigensian Crusade? Ok that would be killing heretics and innocents not non-believers.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Don't have to go that far back. Extremists Christians still regularly engage in violence in the US. They bomb and shoot up Planned Parenthood clinics with some regularity, for example, and had a nice spree of doctor assassinations in the recent past.
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They view themselves as vigilanties, saving unborn children from murderous doctors.

It's nonsense of course, but invoking these attacks involves either a massive shift of goalposts or else a false equivalence that is visible from Andromeda galaxy with a naked eye. You need to go from "violence against random unbelievers for the sake of killing unbelievers" to "violence against people who, in their religious view, are unpunished murderes".

I disagree with their views on abortion entirely, but to claim some sort of equivalence between the two groups is hypocritical to the extreme.

Of course you could argue that Islam makes non-Muslims seem like unpunished murderes to a pious Muslim, but that is kind of my point: Islam itself is the source of said problems.

If mental gymnastics make it to the Olympics, be sure to enroll yourself. A medal is all but guaranteed.

McHrozni
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Albigensian Crusade? Ok that would be killing heretics and innocents not non-believers.
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*sigh*

This again?

Prove the goal was to kill non-beliveres. Not stop a threat to the authority of the Church or to conquer the rich lands of Languedoc for the French crown, no. We can all agree those were the major factors, you need to prove the main reason was to kill unbelievers and innocents for the sake of killing unbelivers and innocents, for a very substantial majority of participants and the Church.

I won't hold my breath for your response. I reckon you'll either scurry away or find a different false equivalence.

McHrozni
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Except of course for that whole crusades thing. Then act of violence against unbelievers was a sure ticket to heaven.
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Yeah? Prove it.

General consensus is that participation in the said war was the sure ticket to heaven and the goal of the war was opening of pilgrim routes for Christians, perhaps conquering Jerusalem too. Defending the Roman Empire (now called Byzantine empire) from enroaching Turks was also a reason.

If you have evidence the ticket to heaven was really to kill unbelievers for the sake of killing unbelievers all along now would be a good time to show it. If not you can also just admit you were again making a false equivalence, either is fine by me :)

McHrozni
 
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McHrozni said:
*sigh*

... were plan to win over the Christian Holy land back to Christendom, not a plot to kill as many non-believers as possible, for the sake of killing non-believers.

If you wish to pursue this line of inquiry further you'll need to provide a list of Italian mafiosi who went on a Chruch-sanctioned Crusade. Feel free to do so in a response to this post.

McHrozni
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Tell that to the Cathars.

Oops, I forgot, you can't, they were all killed.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Tell that to the Cathars.

Oops, I forgot, you can't, they were all killed.
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The generally accepted history is that the leaders were indeed wiped out, alongside a substantial portion of their following. Another century of suppression of the sect, sometimes violent, sometimes benign, was necessary to slowly eradicate the movement.

Asbelgian crusade ended in 1219, the last known trials of suspected Cathars took place in 1330. Leaders were often killed, regular adherents less so. Punished and made to do pennance sure, but killed for the sake of being killed is above and beyond false.

I'm sure that won't stop you from making more false equivalents :rolleyes:

McHrozni
 
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