USS Liberty

[kookbreaker]

You better reread what you linked to........In no uncertain terms it lays out exactly what can be discussed, and if anything more is asked to reference the Naval authorities in charge.

In short, say exactly what we tell you to. Its extremely clear

Oh horsecrap. Even the section you referred to is referencing security issues. Its not clear at all, especially in light of the all the articles listed at the end!

For guys who claim they were not allowed to talk...they sure were talking!

Heck even Stars and Stripes gave their grudges printspace.

That was weak. Beyond weak. You find some vague reference to restrictions and ignore all the articles showing the crew was talking.

 

[kookbreaker]

So you've convinced yourself.

The evidence of his changing story convinced me, actually. That was his doing, not mine.

You might be interested in a book by another man badly used by his government. It is called Scapegoats of the Empire. http://www.amazon.com/Scapegoats-Empire-Breaker-Bushveldt-Carbineers/dp/0207146667

It informed the screenplay of Breaker Morant. You might find that any number of servicemen who feel abused by their governments have similar reactions.

And when was Ennes held up as a scapegoat for the Liberty events? He decided to put his version of events on the table. Morant and Ennes are not comparable.

Why?

Governments lie and their comrades die. It pisses them off. They lived in the context.

Did you?

Spare me the 'you weren't there' cheap ploy. Rodriguez was at 911 and performed heroic deeds, but that does not excuse his expanding story

 

[gumboot]

I found the account of a radioman from the ship interesting regarding the jamming of they're standard frequencies. Had Israel really believed it an Egyptian ship, i find it hard to believe they would have jammed American frequencies.

That's not how jamming works. Presuming a jamming did occur (there's more to refute this than to support it) the Israelis would simply have detected the frequency the suspected Egyptian ship was communicating on and started broadcasting on it.

It should be pointed out, for the ill informed, that jamming is nothing more than deliberate interference (in other words deliberately putting unwanted signal onto a frequency to decrease the signal-noise ratio). Obviously there's ample explanations for interference that don't require deliberate action by the Israelis.

It should be pointed out that at the time the Sixth Fleet (who were allegedly the ones being jammed) were a significant distance away, and more specifically, the Liberty was between the Sixth Fleet and Israel. For Israel to have jammed their frequency they would have needed to broadcast on the frequency at significantly higher power than the Liberty could.

It goes without saying that there's no way fighter/attack aircraft or torpedo boats could produce enough transmission power to out-broadcast a spy ship.

Were a land-based station broadcasting a strong enough signal to jam the Sixth Fleet frequency it would have been ridiculously obvious on the Liberty with their entire radio frequency utterly saturated with extremely loud noises. It certainly wouldn't sound like what the Radio Operator described.

There could, of course be other explanations for jamming (such as a Soviet facility somewhere trying to jam the Sixth Fleet frequency for the heck of it) or more likely it wasn't jamming at all but just regular interference.

ETA. It should be added that throughout the Cold War it was common practise for countries to try and jam other countries broadcasts. The USSR were particularly well known for jamming eastern bloc language programmes being broadcast on various European channels. However in the broadcast race that resulted, as broadcasts and jammers alike increased signal output by increasing power, the end result was spill over into unintended areas.

 

[roundhead]

From Naval Court of Inquiry testimony of Wayne L. Smith, RMC:"...We did have [radio frequency] jamming in my estimation. I was unable to determine this exactly, but every time it seems when an attack was made on us, or a strafing run, it was preceded by, anywhere from 25 to 30 seconds, carrier on our HiCom circuit, and I had ascertained to check this by calling the transmitter room and they said that they had not keyed the transmitter. This prevailed during the attack and quite a bit after the attack, intermittently."

From Naval Court of Inquiry testimony of Carl Francis Lamkin, CTC: "...I heard [about radio jamming] from Radioman Chief SMITH. He said that definitely that he had notice that the jamming was so loud that he thought at first that it was our transmitters which were malfunctioning but he noted, regardless of frequency, this loud jamming noise. At that time we weren't aware of what they were transmitting at radio central. This is one reason I stressed the fact that the men keep transmitting [distress messages from the transmitter room]."

Naval Court of Inquiry Finding 48: "LIBERTY apparently experienced a phenomenon identified as electronic jamming of her voice radio just prior to and during air attacks. This jamming was described as a steady carrier without modulation."

 

[beachnut]

From Naval Court of Inquiry testimony of Wayne L. Smith, RMC:"...We did have [radio frequency] jamming in my estimation. I was unable to determine this exactly, but every time it seems when an attack was made on us, or a strafing run, it was preceded by, anywhere from 25 to 30 seconds, carrier on our HiCom circuit, and I had ascertained to check this by calling the transmitter room and they said that they had not keyed the transmitter. This prevailed during the attack and quite a bit after the attack, intermittently."

From Naval Court of Inquiry testimony of Carl Francis Lamkin, CTC: "...I heard [about radio jamming] from Radioman Chief SMITH. He said that definitely that he had notice that the jamming was so loud that he thought at first that it was our transmitters which were malfunctioning but he noted, regardless of frequency, this loud jamming noise. At that time we weren't aware of what they were transmitting at radio central. This is one reason I stressed the fact that the men keep transmitting [distress messages from the transmitter room]."

Naval Court of Inquiry Finding 48: "LIBERTY apparently experienced a phenomenon identified as electronic jamming of her voice radio just prior to and during air attacks. This jamming was described as a steady carrier without modulation."

Do you support all failed CTs, no matter how bad your data and conclusions are? Does this mean you errors you made in the OKC thread will not be acknowledged or corrected by you?

 

[roundhead]

Do you support all failed CTs, no matter how bad your data and conclusions are? Does this mean you errors you made in the OKC thread will not be acknowledged or corrected by you?

By a huge factor, the evidence is overwhelming the Israeli's knew the ships identity, attacked it anyhow, and in conjunction with the US government, the Israeli's helped cover it up.

Between numerous quotes from US intel professionals, high ups in govt, High Naval officials, and others, its extremely convincing that it was an intentional attack on a US Naval vessel.

No matter your weak and unconvincing arguements to the contrary.

 

[Loss Leader]

Between numerous quotes from US intel professionals, high ups in govt, High Naval officials, and others, its extremely convincing that it was an intentional attack on a US Naval vessel.

Are you including in that list the US Ambassador who remembers having once heard from another ambassador that he had once seen an English translation of a transcript that he thought showed that the pilots knew the ship was American?

Because he may not be your strongest witness, seeing as he didn't actually witness anything. And the guy he was talking about was already dead.

 

[roundhead]

Are you including in that list the US Ambassador who remembers having once heard from another ambassador that he had once seen an English translation of a transcript that he thought showed that the pilots knew the ship was American?

Because he may not be your strongest witness, seeing as he didn't actually witness anything. And the guy he was talking about was already dead.

Loss Leader, address this, as noone else has as of yet..

from earlier in this thread



Perhaps the most persuasive suggestion that such transcripts existed comes from the Israelis themselves, in a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv.

Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named "Hamlet" was reporting that the Americans had "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."

Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was "very angry," and that "the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."

 

[SDC]

Roundhead, source for the Harman quotes, please. You'll also notice that Harman is only saying that he thinks the Americans have information. He is not confirming that he has been shown any hard evidence by the Americans, or in fact that he had seen any from the Israeli side. He probably got yelled at by the State dept or the like.

ETA: Roundhead, please, please, remember to source statements like these! I'm begging. Don't make me nag and whine. It won't be pretty. Ask my wife.

 

[kookbreaker]

I'd still like to know how IDF managed this jamming with the planes and ships on scene.

 

[Loss Leader]

Loss Leader, address this, as noone else has as of yet..

No.

Why should I address your posts when you don't address mine?

Also, from another thread, Elvis?

 

[roundhead]

Roundhead, source for the Harman quotes, please. You'll also notice that Harman is only saying that he thinks the Americans have information. He is not confirming that he has been shown any hard evidence by the Americans, or in fact that he had seen any from the Israeli side. He probably got yelled at by the State dept or the like.

ETA: Roundhead, please, please, remember to source statements like these! I'm begging. Don't make me nag and whine. It won't be pretty. Ask my wife.

Chicago Tribune....I told you it was earlier in the thread, where it was sourced...lol, and wasnt addressed.


Btw...The quote doesnt say"thinks"...dont water down the quote, it was quite damning



"clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."

 

[SDC]

Btw...The quote doesnt say"thinks"...dont water down the quote, it was quite damning



"clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."

Your post did not say he had seen the American evidence. Just that he reported that the Americans had evidence. Granted, "thinks" is my word, but you are making a distinction without a difference. He is only reporting that he thinks, believes, has been told, whatever, that the Americans have evidence. Last time I looked that was a fair way from providing actual evidence. If I were on a jury (as I've been, in both civil and criminal), I would say that without confirmation that wasn't enough.

Also, what does "from a certain stage" mean? Could mean anything. From first thing in the morning or after the ship was already shot up?

Go to the court of public opinion, if Congress won't do what you want. That's your right, obviously.

 

[roundhead]

Your post did not say he had seen the American evidence. Just that he reported that the Americans had evidence. Granted, "thinks" is my word, but you are making a distinction without a difference. He is only reporting that he thinks, believes, has been told, whatever, that the Americans have evidence. Last time I looked that was a fair way from providing actual evidence. If I were on a jury (as I've been, in both civil and criminal), I would say that without confirmation that wasn't enough.

Also, what does "from a certain stage" mean? Could mean anything. From first thing in the morning or after the ship was already shot up?

Go to the court of public opinion, if Congress won't do what you want. That's your right, obviously.

The Israeli agents statement says that during the attack he became aware it was an American ship and continued the attack anyway. That seems very precise to me.

In other words, it wasnt a day before(when we already have proof they had identified our ship), or that morning(when we already have proof it was on they're situation map). This was DURING THE ATTACK.

If this agent thought enough to tell his powers to be several times we knew they knew, and then add to it the statements of the EC-21 crew, and the corraborated statements of intelligence people in different theatres who read a transcript of the attack, i would say the evidence is overwhelming.

Sadly, as we speak, none of these witnesses has ever been asked to testify before Congress, ever. That in itself is a travesty.

 

[Doctor Evil]

If this agent thought enough to tell his powers to be several times we knew they knew, and then add to it the statements of the EC-21 crew, and the corraborated statements of intelligence people in different theatres who read a transcript of the attack, i would say the evidence is overwhelming.

You probably meant the EC-121.

We already covered that, on pages 2,3 of the thread, including links to the transcripts we have, and to a detailed evidence of one of the hebrew linguists on the EC-121. Both sources refute your claims. You posted in those pages. Yet here you are, repeating the claims, while ignoring the evidence you did not like.

 

[roundhead]

You probably meant the EC-121.

We already covered that, on pages 2,3 of the thread, including links to the transcripts we have, and to a detailed evidence of one of the hebrew linguists on the EC-121. Both sources refute your claims. You posted in those pages. Yet here you are, repeating the claims, while ignoring the evidence you did not like.

So are you calling this guy on the plane a liar, and that tapes HE made wernt recorded. Remember, other cited in this same part of the story heard the same exact things this guy from the plane heard, even if you exclude Porter and Kilgore as "just having heard about it"

From the Tribune piece:


Indeed, the declassified documents state that no recordings of the "actual attack" exist, raising questions about the source of the transcripts recalled by Forslund, Gotcher, Block, Porter, Lang and Kirby.

The three recordings reflect what the NSA describes as "the aftermath" of the attack -- Israeli communications with two Israeli helicopters dispatched to rescue any survivors who may have jumped into the water.

Two of the recordings were made by Michael Prostinak, a Hebrew linguist aboard a U.S. Navy EC-121, a lumbering propeller-driven aircraft specially equipped to gather electronic intelligence.

But Prostinak said he was certain that more than three recordings were made that day.

"I can tell you there were more tapes than just the three on the Internet," he said. "No doubt in my mind, more than three tapes."

At least one of the missing tapes, Prostinak said, captured Israeli communications "in which people were not just tranquil or taking care of business as normal. We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said. "Everyone we were listening to was excited. You know, it was an actual attack. And during the attack was when mention of the American flag was made."

Prostinak acknowledged that his Hebrew was not good enough to understand every word being said, but that after the mention of the American flag "the attack did continue. We copied [recorded] it until we got completely out of range. We got a great deal of it."

Charles Tiffany, the plane's navigator, remembers hearing Prostinak on the plane's intercom system, shouting, "I got something crazy on UHF," the radio frequency band used by the Israeli Air Force.

"I'll never forget it to this day," said Tiffany, now a retired Florida lawyer. He also remembers hearing the plane's pilot ordering the NSA linguists to "start taping everything."

Prostinak said he and the others aboard the plane had been unaware of the Liberty's presence 15,000 feet below, but had concluded that the Israelis' target must be an American ship. "We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said.

After listening to the three recordings released by the NSA, Prostinak said it was clear from the sequence in which they were numbered that at least two tapes that had once existed were not there.

 

[roundhead]

So here is what we have, thus far.


Every crewmember has said the flag was flying and was visible

Israel says it wasnt.

Israel has admitted it knew the ship was in the area the day before.

Israel has admitted the ship was there that morning, that it was on the situation board, and that its "presence"was forgotten or misplaced on the board.

Numerous intelligence types working for the US at the time have stated they saw transcripts of the attack and heard Israeli pilots questioning ATC after noting the ship was American.

The EC-121 guy stating he heard the attacks going on, taped them, his navigator noted him screaming into the planes intercom regarding this, his hearing the American flag mentioned and the attack continuing. His firm ststement that at least two tapes are missing that he recorded and turned into officials after they touched down.

The intercepted cable of an Israeli agent stating we knew Israel attacked on purpose and had identified the ship.

The findings of the Moorer Commision, and its composition of highly regarded militry officers...including the reviewing officer of the Naval Inquiry(Adm Staring)among others.

The Cheif petty officer who listened in on communications between the White House and 6TH fleet, turning our air assets around who were on the way to help.From Morocco.

The hastily arranged Court of Inquiry (held 10 DAYS after the incident), which interviewed only 14 crewmen, and despite its request, no Israeli's.
The fact the reviewing officer WOULDNT sign off on its outcome.

The fact victims families were told it was an accident BEFORE THE INQUIRY WAS EVEN OVER. That should clearly speak to how important getting to the truth was.


These few points alone, and i have chosen only some, leave no doubt the attack was intentional.

 

[SDC]

Actually Roundhead, once you started posting in the 9/11 area, indicating that you believe "inside job" conspiracy ideas, I decided any information or opinions you provide are not worth accepting or pursuing. On any topic.

Remember, the court of public opinion should be the one you want. Also you should try to make better friends than the 9/11 "Truthers."

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Actually Roundhead, once you started posting in the 9/11 area, indicating that you believe "inside job" conspiracy ideas, I decided any information or opinions you provide are not worth accepting or pursuing. On any topic.

Remember, the court of public opinion should be the one you want. Also you should try to make better friends than the 9/11 "Truthers."

So he's hit all the buttons, has he? Liberty incident, OKC, 9/11, hates Israel... do we even dare ask what Roundhead thinks of the Holocaust casualty figures?

 

[roundhead]

So he's hit all the buttons, has he? Liberty incident, OKC, 9/11, hates Israel... do we even dare ask what Roundhead thinks of the Holocaust casualty figures?

Actually, you left out a few. I have zero problems with Jews, and plainly stated that, but i do have an extremely unfavorable opinion of the Isreali govt, and that opinion has been held for many years, and through many of they're administrations.
So lets get the facts straight about my opinions, rather thaN miscast them, or outright lie about them.

I am a veteran, love my country, but draw a distinction between love of country and love of administration.
The current administration i have zero love for, they are proven liars, dont represent the views of the majority of Americans(who they are tasked to represent)
Remember, these people work and represent me, not the other way around. The current administration has utterly failed at that. And based on opinion polling, my views represent the mainstream.
I have zero against the Israeli people, nor Americans, obviously, but those who run both countries have issues that arent endearing to me.

Hopefully you are intelligent enough to note the distinctions i raise, above.

And yes, i dont believe the fertilizer bomb did all the damage at OKC. I dont believe the official conspiracy theoty regarding 9/11, and i dont believe the Israeli's attacked the Liberty unaware who they were attacking.

I sleep more soundly at night thinking that if even one person at least digs in to my above opinions because of something i said or typed, ans as a result becomes aware of something he or she might not have otherwise, i have added to whatever it was i accomplished that day.
My perhaps biggest fault is my inability to express myself as well on a keyboard as i can in person. We all have our faults.


Believe, i take great solace in the reports of Israeli pilots continually asking for clarification when aware they were attacking our ship. And additionally in the report one pilot actually refused to attack, and was dealt with by Israeli officials.

I have a firm belief all people are basically good, but some in a position of power sometimes use influence to make people do something that is against they're moral convictions. Its a sad truth.