USS Liberty

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Haaretz is a black hole in regards to past stories, unfortunately.

Do I dare guess as to why you think that is?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Not inaccurate at all.

None of the agencies mentioned has conducted an investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry
June 10-18, 1967
The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

CIA Report
June 13, 1967
The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.
Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.

Clifford Report
July 18, 1967
No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence." Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

Senate Armed Services Committee
Feb. 1, 1968
No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee
April-May 1968
Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee
May 10, 1971
Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
1979
Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

National Security Agency
1981
Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.

House Armed Services Committee
June 1991
Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

I am sorry Mr. Meadors. It appears that your claim was not inaccurate, but instead appears to have been a deliberate fabrication. I cannot imagine what it was like for you both on that day and in the years since. But I am afraid that you cannot find the truth, nor encourage others to seek it if you will not tell it.

You may not like the results of the above listed investigations, but to claim that they did not occur is blatantly dishonest. I reccomend you consider apologizing for this behavior.

 

[SDC]

Haaretz recently had a story about Israel having nukes ready for the war. My guess is it didn't want the US interfering if it wanted to use them.

Why own up to things that happened in the past? The same debate is happening in Australia in regards to it's treatment of the aboriginal people. You own up to it because it was wrong. If you pretend that wrong is right, then as a nation you have got problems. The state of Australia's aboriginal people is testament to that, since that issue will never be resolved till we face up to the past.

So you are comparing a single wartime incident with a program of repression sometimes approaching genocide, lasting for generations?

Do you see any problem with that comparison?

ETA: last line breaks my preferred practice. Instead I will say: I see a serious problem with that comparison. You could fairly compare Australia's policies towards its native peoples with the US (or Canada's, Argentina's, etc.). You could compare the Liberty case with, well, any number of wartime single events which gave rise to endless arguments. But the two classes are fundamentally not comparable.

 

[a_unique_person]

Do I dare guess as to why you think that is?

Go on, dare.

 

[kookbreaker]

Haaretz recently had a story about Israel having nukes ready for the war. My guess is it didn't want the US interfering if it wanted to use them.

If what you claim were actually true, do you seriously think one little barely armed US ship was going to matter?

 

[Doctor Evil]

Haaretz recently had a story about Israel having nukes ready for the war. My guess is it didn't want the US interfering if it wanted to use them.

Does not really add up. I am not sure whether the Israelis had nukes then. However:

1. The war was essentially won by the time of the attack on the Liberty. There was no need for drastic measures, such as using nukes.

2. The Israelis refrained from using their nukes during the 1973 war, when they were of real danger of losing.

As a result I don't think the issue of Israeli nukes is relevant here.

 

[Hans]

I believe that in six day war the Isrealis didn't have a functional airdroppable nuke - not until the early seventies and the Ramadan war. I think the World would have noticed the Israelis using a nuke without a spy ship picking up the data....

 

[a_unique_person]

If what you claim were actually true, do you seriously think one little barely armed US ship was going to matter?

It was not it's arms that made it important.

 

[kookbreaker]

It was not it's arms that made it important.

I don't get your point then.

 

[roundhead]

It would be nice to dismiss this ridiculous myth that the Liberty had a very distinctive shape. The Liberty was so named because she was a converted Victory Ship - a WW2 era cargo ship and an improved version of the Liberty Ship. In all, over 3,000 Liberty and Victory ships were built, of almost the exact shape, making them the most common single ship design ever.

After World War Two both Liberty and Victory ships were sold to private shipping firms and foreign nations alike.

Just like Victory ships, the Egyptian ship that the Israelis mistook her for was also a cargo ship. Further, if you actually compare the Liberty and the El Quseir they're in fact very much alike. While a close and clear inspection would reveal their difference, at distance, through smoke, under the stress of battle, and while being fired upon the misidentification would be almost a certainty.

As for the flag, anyone who thinks they could guarantee immediate identification of a US flag while passing it at 500MPH, 500ft above, in the cockpit of a fighter, is dreaming.

It's funny that when some Liberty survivors fail to see the markings on the aircraft, this is taken as evidence that the aircraft are not marked, but when some IDF pilots likewise fail to see the markings on the ship it's taken as evidence of the IDF lying to cover something up.

Actually, the Egytpian ship is only roughly half the size of the liberty, be very hard to mistake the two.
Its been stated they overflew the ship and in fact her presence in the area was noted earlier and on the Israeli's situation board.

 

[Loss Leader]

Actually, the Egytpian ship is only roughly half the size of the liberty, be very hard to mistake the two.

Does it get harder when you're a war with Egypt, the ship you find is sitting just off their coast and you've been assured there are no American ships in the area?

Its been stated they overflew the ship and in fact her presence in the area was noted earlier and on the Israeli's situation board.

The Liberty's presence somewhere in the ocean was noted that morning but: 1) the information was removed in the afternoon because it was considered stale; 2) the Liberty moved so it wasn't even in the same place as where its presence had been noted; and 3) the US assured Israel that it was observing a 100 mile limit.

 

[kookbreaker]

Actually, the Egytpian ship is only roughly half the size of the liberty, be very hard to mistake the two.

And who could mistake the Sheffield for the 5-times displacement Bismark, eh?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Ennes make a lot of claims, including that he was officer of the deck. At this stage I could not take his testimony seriously.

I see. He was on the Liberty, during the attack, and has not only written a book describing, in detail, what went on, researched quite a bit of the signals traffic at higher echelons that added to decisions that left Liberty open to attack, but you don't take his testimony seriously?

'Scuse the hell out of me, brother kook (and happy birthday ) but do you also not take seriously the testsimony of the NYPD and NYFD witnesses from 9-11?

You have stood tall and slammed 9-11 troofers, yet when an eyewitness to the attack speaks out, you don't take him seriously?

WTF?

ETA: For those of you in this thread who are doing a bit of semantic quibbling, jmeadors assertion that the US government has not done an investigation is an obvious, to me, reference to a lack of a Congressional investigation. The Congress is indeed correctly referred to as "The US Government" in this context, being the Legislative branch of same, and its standard oversight role over the executive branch, in which the US military operates. His ref to the Tillman case is spot on, as well as the Pueblo case.

Let's knock it off with the semantic nitpicking. He was there. Y'all weren't, yet I see a pooh-poohing of his recollections of an event where he was present and took an active role.

What is going on here?

DR

 

[roundhead]

Does it get harder when you're a war with Egypt, the ship you find is sitting just off their coast and you've been assured there are no American ships in the area?






The Liberty's presence somewhere in the ocean was noted that morning but: 1) the information was removed in the afternoon because it was considered stale; 2) the Liberty moved so it wasn't even in the same place as where its presence had been noted; and 3) the US assured Israel that it was observing a 100 mile limit.

Exactly, you then admit that overflight by the Israeli's well before the attack were able to confirm her as American obviously.

So the day before the attack they know her general whereabouts, have confirmed her identity, and put her on they're situation board.

Yet the next day, with a number of sorties, on a perfectly clear day, all the sudden cant identify her.

You realize how inplausible this is, correct.

If they have no problem one day with identification, why would they the next, in fair weather.

You have any idea how tall the bow numbers were on that ship, and how visible they are to a modern surveilance aircraft, not to mantion of course the flag, which every crewmember to a man says was flying as well.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Actually, the Egytpian ship is only roughly half the size of the liberty, be very hard to mistake the two.

The Prinz Eugen was only roughly half the size of the Bismarck, but got mistaken for her in the Battle of the Denmark Straits because the silhouettes of the ships were identical. Scale is a lot harder to estimate than shape against a background with no reference points - for example, the open sea.

Dave

 

[roundhead]

Regarding the false claims made in this thread there have been Congressional investigations into this incident, the following letter clearly puts that to bed....




Dear Patron:

Thank you for your query.

After checking numerous resources, including the CIS (Congressional Information Service) Indexes to Congressional Hearings (both published and unpublished), and the Public Documents Masterfile, I could find no evidence that the Congress ever held hearings or launched an investigation into the June 8, 1967 incident with the USS Liberty.

The Library of Congress does have the following titles concerning the USS Liberty in the Library's collections:

[Several references follow] I hope that this information is helpful.

ECH
Reference Librarian
Main Reading Room
Humanities & Social Sciences Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.

 

[Loss Leader]

Exactly, you then admit that overflight by the Israeli's well before the attack were able to confirm her as American obviously.

I admit that on the morning of the attack, some branch of some Israeli service somewhere noted that the Liberty was located somewhere in the Mediterranian.

So the day before the attack they know her general whereabouts, have confirmed her identity, and put her on they're situation board.

I did not say that, nor can it be inferred from my writings.

Yet the next day, with a number of sorties, on a perfectly clear day, all the sudden cant identify her.

I don't think you know what a sortie is.

You realize how inplausible this is, correct.

No, I believe that it is almost certain that the Liberty came under fire because her identity was unknown.

If they have no problem one day with identification, why would they the next, in fair weather.

Because the ship had moved; because the US had informed Israel it would not have ships in the area; because these were different pilots than the ones who had identified the Liberty; because they were in the midst of a war and mistakes get made in wars; because the Liberty was a warship; because the Liberty fired on the Israelis; because the pilots were of lower ability than the pilots who had once identified the Liberty; because God willed it ... I'm really not sure how many explanations your looking for.

You have any idea how tall the bow numbers were on that ship, and how visible they are to a modern surveilance aircraft, not to mantion of course the flag, which every crewmember to a man says was flying as well.

I do. I understand that, despite this, ships are sometimes misidentified.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The Prinz Eugen was only roughly half the size of the Bismarck, but got mistaken for her in the Battle of the Denmark Straits because the silhouettes of the ships were identical. Scale is a lot harder to estimate than shape against a background with no reference points - for example, the open sea.

Dave

Hi, Dave. I have flown, in the Mediterranean, many dozens of surveillance flights in Sea Sprites (SH-2F) wherein visual identification and rigging of a ship is done. I am intimately familiar with how one identifies a ship visually, with the unaided eye, at a variety of altitudes and flight profiles. I have also done so aboard prop and jet propelled patrol aircraft.

While it is possible to misidentify a ship, if you read Ennes' book, and the range at which the aircraft were to the ship for gun runs, protesting the odds of a misrig, and a failure to note the flag -- the US flag has a very distinctive pattern, easily discerned at gun range -- assumes that IAF pilots don't have sufficient visual acuity to qualify as fighter pilots, nor any training in ship recognition.

This answers LL as well, in regards the likelihood of IAF pilots incorrectly identifying the ship. That the pilots may have lied in their initial reports, or not, is an open question, particularly if they were in fear of punishment for screwing up the VID. I find it far likelier that they fired on the ship regardless of its flag. Also, the torpedo boats, Israeli Navy, would have as ships of even minimally compet navies do, had equipped binoculars for officers and petty officers, and lookouts, on the bridge and above decks, rendering ludicrous any claim that they could not see/identify the Liberty, or its flag. I've stood bridge watch and look out watches as both midshipman and officer, and it takes nothing special to use a pair of binoculars, nor to recognize what you are looking at unless the haze and visibility conditions blur the image. I reserve comment on the visibility conditions to Ennes, or jmeador in this conversation, given that they were there that day.

What the hell do I know? I can only reference 25 years in the US Navy, which included service on surface combatants and carriers, and being well acquainted with how Western and professional navies, among which the Israeli Navy numbers, conduct routine operations.

The complaint the the US Government "swept this under the rug" is part of what motivated Ennes to write his book, and is a valid complaint against the US government of Lyndon B Johnson, which includes upper levels of both uniformed, and non uniformed, leadership in the DoD.

DR

 

[roundhead]

Our divisions collateral duty was lookouts one deck above the bridge when we pulled out or entered port. We were both(port and starboard)equipped with binoculars. From our vantage point we could see about 6.2 miles.

This was on the USS California. Those torpedo boats would have zero problems easily identifing the bow numbers from several thousand yards off, on a clear day, as it was reported to be.

And that is assuming the attacking aircraft didnt know who she was, which is extremely unlikely.

Very hard to equate training and recognition from 1967 to WW2 days, night and day differences.

Several crew members reported overflights close enough to where they waved at the pilots.

 

[kookbreaker]

I see. He was on the Liberty, during the attack, and has not only written a book describing, in detail, what went on, researched quite a bit of the signals traffic at higher echelons that added to decisions that left Liberty open to attack, but you don't take his testimony seriously?

'Scuse the hell out of me, brother kook (and happy birthday ) but do you also not take seriously the testsimony of the NYPD and NYFD witnesses from 9-11?

Ennes is to Liberty as Rodriguez is to 911. Sorry.

You have stood tall and slammed 9-11 troofers, yet when an eyewitness to the attack speaks out, you don't take him seriously?

WTF?

Ennes' tale does not jibe with the reported facts, and has grown in the telling. He, or one of his buddies is going to have to pull out something more factual, along with some explanations as to why the Captain, and other's sworn testimony does not support his account.