USS Liberty

[Doctor Evil]

Loss Leader, I gather that you are a lawyer. Can you please read the following:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/cristol.html

ANSWER TO PLAINTIFF'S COMPLAINT
The National Security Agency (NSA), by and through its attorneys, answers Plaintiff's complaint [Docket #1] as follows:

First Defense​

The NSA has conducted a search of its records and found no records responsive to Plaintiff's first and second requests.

Second Defense​

On July 2, 2003, the NSA declassified, and released to Plaintiff via overnight courier, all of the actual recordings and English translations (including summaries of those translations) held by the NSA that relate to the USS Liberty incident.

Can I take the second defence as an official declaration of the NSA, stating to the court that they have no further transcripts.

 

[Doctor Evil]

The attack on the Liberty took 25 minutes, there where multiple aircraft... The Liberty took a severe beating and the scars show it.

The Israelis flew over the Liberty multiple times and where easily able to identify the ship which was very distinctive in shape and with her flag flying high on the mast.

You then tell me the Israelis didn't know it was an American ship and this is merely another blue on blue incident and I'm supposed to believe you?

Please show me other instances where similar things have happened. Not a single plane attacking a ship but a joint attack with multiple planes on a clear day lasting for 25 minutes...

Your question was already addressed by kookbreaker here:

I would point out to those who claim that misidentification was 'impossible'.

Remember this was not the Isreali front line troops attacking. The planes were the equivalent of the National Guard. They had limited experience with sea-based identification. Seaborne IDing can be very tricky as there is no real basis for size comparison.

Flybys by Isreali planes in the morning are of little relevance to an attack that took place in the afternoon.

For another incident, I would point out that during WW2, during the hunt for the German Ship Bismark, several Swordfish torpedo bombers accidently attacked the HMS Sheffied, a ship with 1/6 the displacement of the Bismark.

So the Swordfish bombers attacked the Shefflield despite:

a) The size difference
b) The much lower speed of the Swordfish
c) The pilots much greater familiarity with the Sheffield

Yet, somehow pilots flying high speed jets are supposed to see a single flag when Swordfish pilots could not spot the British flag on the familiar Sheffield.

This was not the only misidentification incident. Experienced Egyptian pilots misidentified oil tankers as five-times-the-displacement Aircraft Carriers.

 

[Loss Leader]

Can I take the second defence as an official declaration of the NSA, stating to the court that they have no further transcripts.

Well, I don't know what an "official declaration" is.

The NSA stated to the court that they did not believe they were in possession of any transcripts that had not already been made public.

Even if the NSA was lying, I doubt this statement could be used against them by anyone other than the Plaintiff in any civil capacity.

 

[Cpt.Fantastic]

This is nothing but your conjecture. It holds no more weight than my conjecture which is that you don't understand the facts.

Do not turn this objective argument into a subjective argument. My understanding of the incident comes from many sources and of people whom have worked in the field and are aware of reality.

You have not answered my questions to a satisfactory level, you merely claim to.

Remember this was not the Isreali front line troops attacking. The planes were the equivalent of the National Guard.

Firstly this is completely wrong, the Air force that a few days earlier completely decimated the combined enemy air forces with an amazing surprise attack and you turn them into second tier weekend warriors? Have a read into Operation Focus...

The Israeli military is a very effective military force as is her Air Force and for you to claim that they attacked this ship for 25 minutes with estimates from the crew of around 20 plus sorties flown against the ship... For these aircraft to not notice the flag and the writing on the vessel is absurd.

That is what we would call divine intervention, considering I'm not a religious man I wouldn't give much weight to the case as with your ability to filter information logically.

And to cover the point of the Swordfish attacking a friendly ship with torpedoes. The swordfish is a very rudimentary aircraft from a time long since passed, those aircraft would have done a run on the aircraft from afar due to their payload, the cockpits have no visors and they're wearing goggles traveling very slowly and near to the water due to firing the torpedo and of the abilities of the aircraft...

During the Liberty incident the Israeli jets where buzzing the ship, flying directly over her at low level, circling back for another run... Had I 15 posts I would give you a link to a picture of such a thing yet I cannot.

Please don't claim to have answers when you haven't.

 

[Loss Leader]

Remember this was not the Isreali front line troops attacking. The planes were the equivalent of the National Guard.

Firstly this is completely wrong ...

You attribute the above quote to me. I didn't say it. I didn't say anything like it.

You're still wrong. Now you're even wrong about who you are debating.

For these aircraft to not notice the flag and the writing on the vessel is absurd.

That is not a matter of fact. It is your opinion. And it is wrong.

 

[Cpt.Fantastic]

You attribute the above quote to me. I didn't say it. I didn't say anything like it.

You're still wrong. Now you're even wrong about who you are debating.
.

I'm perfectly aware you didn't say it, don't think I care for you that much.

That is not a matter of fact. It is your opinion. And it is wrong.

How is it wrong? If your plea to me is of logic please account for the lapse of training, eyesight and logic for 25 minutes from multiple entities in very close proximity. A good place to start would be finding a similar incident...

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

How can I withdraw it if I never claimed it?

You are the one who placed the accusation here on the JREF forum.

Now either show us who here wished death upon Mr. Ennes or apologize.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Well, I don't know what an "official declaration" is.

The NSA stated to the court that they did not believe they were in possession of any transcripts that had not already been made public.

Even if the NSA was lying, I doubt this statement could be used against them by anyone other than the Plaintiff in any civil capacity.

Thanks. Not as strongly binding as I would have guessed. I do think that this is all they got. They gave a fairly straight answer.

 

[gumboot]

It had many injured, and was damaged. It was only armed with four machine guns.

Point?

Which is no reason to torpedo it. An MTB is quite capable of standing off at a safe distance from machine guns.

It's not about what they're capable of doing, it's about what they're entitled to do. They were military forces actively engaged in a war, and they were fired upon. They are entitled to return fire and destroy the enemy.

 

[a_unique_person]

Point?




It's not about what they're capable of doing, it's about what they're entitled to do. They were military forces actively engaged in a war, and they were fired upon. They are entitled to return fire and destroy the enemy.

Sure, that's how you treat an enemy. I thought they had made a mistake and wanted to help the crew.

 

[a_unique_person]

You are the one who placed the accusation here on the JREF forum.

Now either show us who here wished death upon Mr. Ennes or apologize.

I never said anyone here did.

 

[a_unique_person]

<sigh>

Guilt on the part of those who made those attacks. I have no idea who they are, other than they see Ennes as an anti semite and blame him for stating his story.

 

[gumboot]

The Israelis flew over the Liberty multiple times and where easily able to identify the ship which was very distinctive in shape and with her flag flying high on the mast.

It would be nice to dismiss this ridiculous myth that the Liberty had a very distinctive shape. The Liberty was so named because she was a converted Victory Ship - a WW2 era cargo ship and an improved version of the Liberty Ship. In all, over 3,000 Liberty and Victory ships were built, of almost the exact shape, making them the most common single ship design ever.

After World War Two both Liberty and Victory ships were sold to private shipping firms and foreign nations alike.

Just like Victory ships, the Egyptian ship that the Israelis mistook her for was also a cargo ship. Further, if you actually compare the Liberty and the El Quseir they're in fact very much alike. While a close and clear inspection would reveal their difference, at distance, through smoke, under the stress of battle, and while being fired upon the misidentification would be almost a certainty.

As for the flag, anyone who thinks they could guarantee immediate identification of a US flag while passing it at 500MPH, 500ft above, in the cockpit of a fighter, is dreaming.

It's funny that when some Liberty survivors fail to see the markings on the aircraft, this is taken as evidence that the aircraft are not marked, but when some IDF pilots likewise fail to see the markings on the ship it's taken as evidence of the IDF lying to cover something up.

 

[gumboot]

I thought they had made a mistake and wanted to help the crew.

Why would you think that? They approached an unknown (suspected of being Egyptian) ship, signalled demanding that she identify herself. She fired upon them. So they returned fire. When they identified the US ensign they ceased fire and offered assistance, which was refused.

 

[a_unique_person]

Your question was already addressed by kookbreaker here:

Mistakes often happen in war. These are usually noticed within a reasonable time, and don't go on for a sustained period of time. There are also the claims in the article that the attackers knew this was an American ship. That they were continually passed over makes the 'heat of the battle' claim dubious.

 

[a_unique_person]

Why would you think that? They approached an unknown (suspected of being Egyptian) ship, signalled demanding that she identify herself. She fired upon them. So they returned fire. When they identified the US ensign they ceased fire and offered assistance, which was refused.

You didn't say that. You said they went to offer assistance. There were the intercepted communications, referred to in the Chicago Tribune article, that say they already knew it was a US ship. The Chicago Tribune is not a hate site, CS site, or anything of the sort.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Mistakes often happen in war. These are usually noticed within a reasonable time, and don't go on for a sustained period of time. There are also the claims in the article that the attackers knew this was an American ship. That they were continually passed over makes the 'heat of the battle' claim dubious.

These claims were discussed here. At least some of them have problems. For instance, some claims have included receiving communications at fairly far places, beyond the range where they are likely to be received. Other tell us that top secret material appeared all over the globe (Lebanon, Germany and Vietnam, etc.) This is not the way top secret material is typically handled. Maybe Gamboot have more concrete information about the way the NSA handled such material and their CRITIC system?

In contrast, the Hebrew linguists we know, which handled the transcripts directly, had other conclusions. Furthermore, the transcripts we have show the IDF control tower expected the ship to be Egyptian, and only had started to think otherwise later (presumably due to information from the IDF navy). This is a direct evidence to what (a part) of the IDF forces really thought. I can not stress this enough.

There may be other transcripts, but as I pointed out the claims about them are not problem free. I will remain doubtful until they are found.

 

[kookbreaker]

Firstly this is completely wrong, the Air force that a few days earlier completely decimated the combined enemy air forces with an amazing surprise attack and you turn them into second tier weekend warriors? Have a read into Operation Focus...

By and large these were not the airmen who were destroying the Arab armies forces (most of which was via ground attack, btw). These were second tier pilots. More importantly, they had no training in identifying ships at sea.

The Israeli military is a very effective military force as is her Air Force and for you to claim that they attacked this ship for 25 minutes with estimates from the crew of around 20 plus sorties flown against the ship... For these aircraft to not notice the flag and the writing on the vessel is absurd.

A flag at 5 knots is not much to see, and quite frankly reading the back of ship isn't going to tell much. (Some folks have even made hay about the number '5' being hung from the back of the ship as if the arabs didn't use arabic numerals!)

Before we go claiming that the Isreali defenses were some kind of superarmy, let us recall that during the 6 day war they almost had several incidences where they would have ended up firing on their fellow troops. In the 1956 conflicts there were points where Isreali soldiers fought their fellow soldiers due to mistakes in identification. Even more incidences took place in '73.

That is what we would call divine intervention, considering I'm not a religious man I wouldn't give much weight to the case as with your ability to filter information logically.

And to cover the point of the Swordfish attacking a friendly ship with torpedoes. The swordfish is a very rudimentary aircraft from a time long since passed, those aircraft would have done a run on the aircraft from afar due to their payload, the cockpits have no visors and they're wearing goggles traveling very slowly and near to the water due to firing the torpedo and of the abilities of the aircraft...

But at the same time they were flying much, much , much slower than the jets that attacked the Liberty, and more to the point they were familiar with the Sheffield and saw it almost every day! Even more to their advantage: These were pilots trained to identify ships at sea!

During the Liberty incident the Israeli jets where buzzing the ship, flying directly over her at low level, circling back for another run... Had I 15 posts I would give you a link to a picture of such a thing yet I cannot.

I'm not impressed. The Liberty as hit with napalm, which would have obscured views. The fires were enough to obscure signal lights much later on. Yet somehow pilots are supposed to see limp flags and read stuff on ships?!

 

[Loss Leader]

Guilt on the part of those who made those attacks. I have no idea who they are, other than they see Ennes as an anti semite and blame him for stating his story.

Your argument makes a perfect circle. It could be used to teach high school trig.

 

[Hans]

One correction

(Some folks have even made hay about the number '5' being hung from the back of the ship as if the arabs didn't use arabic numerals!)

Arab speakers cannot read what in the west we call "Arabic numbers". They use what they call "Hindi" numbers. Hebrews also cannot read western numbers (but most Isreali piltots would have been educated in their use due to the instruments using them)

Our numbers came from northern Africa (Spain) while the western arabs used

(٠.١.٢.٣.٤.٥.٦.٧.٨.٩)

The reason that (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) are known as Arabic numerals despite their Indian heritage is that it was the Arabs who adopted the system from India in the ninth century and introduced it to Europe in the tenth. Europeans therefore attributed the numerals to the Arabs, even though the Arabs themselves called them "Hindu numerals".

Oh I've taught Arab students math - trust me, they cannot read western "arabic" numbers!