Using the JREF

[jimmygun]

Until I arrived at this forum I never considered myself sufficiently versed in the arguments needed to stave off all sorts of (what I consider to be) religious attacks.

I usually just let the person rant on and ignored them when they were done. Now however I feel not only the need to respond to some of the crap sent my way but I have the verbal tools to accomplish it.

Yesterday I got an e-mail from a friend who passed it along from a friend etc. It was a prayer for someone off to school and it bemoaned the situation of not being able to pray in school.

I sent a reply arguing most of the mistakes and predjudices (there were many) and am awaiting the reply from him. If it ever comes I will update you all.

Is anyone out there in the same situation as I find myself?

 

[Andonyx]

Is anyone out there in the same situation as I find myself?

Most of the stuff I get is less annoying than that...

Forwarded urban legends....e-mail chain scams....etc.

As for religion I usually end up debating that in person with my family...which makes me a real fun person to be around at gatherings.

You've piqued my curiosity though....I would like to see a reprint of the original e-mail, and your response which I think we'll all enjoy.

 

[arcticpenguin]

When Randi ran a bit in his column about the licensing of practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine in British Columbia, I sent the link to my sister, since she lives in that province. I was surprised later to receive an e-mail from my sister, who was irate at Randi and threatening to send him a nasty e-mail. I told her not to bother unless she could come up with some better arguments. I didn't bother picking them apart, but it would have been very easy; fallacy of appeal to popularity, etc.

 

[Chaos]

I´m some kind of inofficial "debunker of myths" for people I meet. It´s all those assorted conspiracies and legends, nowadays mostly about 9/11 - you know that stuff, about the CIA really being behind it, about that all the jews working in the WTC had been forewarned.
In the last few weeks I usually hand them a piece of paper with "www.randi.org" scribbled on it and tell them to go check that.

 

[Ipecac]

When I "came out" to my father about my atheism a couple of years ago, I was unprepared for some of the arguments he made. Now I understand that they had no merit, but at the time I wasn't able to effectively argue. Now I am, because of this forum.

The same goes for the "dinosaurs on the ark" argument with my brother a year previously. I knew he was making ridiculous arguments, but didn't know the facts enough to conclusively correct him.

 

[Keneke]

To you, jimmygun (and anyone else out there who is skeptical but does not have a forked tongue), use JREF! I myself have come here for advice on particularly persuasive arguments. I find that the pool of minds here are the greatest resource for skepticism I have ever seen.

 

[Phil]

I´m some kind of inofficial "debunker of myths" for people I meet. It´s all those assorted conspiracies and legends, nowadays mostly about 9/11 - you know that stuff, about the CIA really being behind it, about that all the jews working in the WTC had been forewarned.
In the last few weeks I usually hand them a piece of paper with "www.randi.org" scribbled on it and tell them to go check that.

Similar for me, Chaos. It's funny that after presenting some well-reasoned, skeptical arguments in various tiny little exchanges, I've become the "go to" guy. I receive all types of email from my friends wanting this or that explained, or this or that debunked. I even am asked to solve riddles and puzzles, and I have no idea how my problem solving abilities have become so acclaimed. To be honest, I never really thought I was that good at solving puzzles, but demonstrate a little critical thinking and . . .

But now, like others, I direct my friends and family to this site and this forum more often then not.

jimmygun, I am also interested in seeing the email you received and your response, if you don't mind sharing it with us.

 

[jj]

Until I arrived at this forum I never considered myself sufficiently versed in the arguments needed to stave off all sorts of (what I consider to be) religious attacks.

I usually just let the person rant on and ignored them when they were done. Now however I feel not only the need to respond to some of the crap sent my way but I have the verbal tools to accomplish it.

Yesterday I got an e-mail from a friend who passed it along from a friend etc. It was a prayer for someone off to school and it bemoaned the situation of not being able to pray in school.

I sent a reply arguing most of the mistakes and predjudices (there were many) and am awaiting the reply from him. If it ever comes I will update you all.

Is anyone out there in the same situation as I find myself?

***cheer***

I do believe that's what this forum is supposed to teach.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

While I haven't had any great revelations, I have honed some arguments and discarded ones that really weren't effective.

I generally don't interact with enough people IRL to come across woo woo claims or advocates of bogus products so my crusade is mostly limited to chain e-mails and the like.

 

[Yahweh]

Sometimes I cant help but think "Thats brilliant!" when reading the JREF.

There is only one disadvantage: Some people are just unwilling to listen, although lots and lots creationists have disproved this very "theory" and they dont take it seriously in the first place, I still hear "SCIENTISTS have proved that the dust on the moon is too thin, that means the Earth is 6000 years old!"... oh well, cant save 'em all...

 

[jimmygun]

Forgive the length but here is the poem I was sent...

New School Prayer / Sid Phelan

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd
If scriptures now the class recites
It violates the Bill of Rights
And any time my head I bow
Becomes a federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple orange or green
That's no offense. Its a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice

For praying in a public hall
Might offend some one with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate
Gods name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks
And pierce our noses tongues and cheeks
They've outlawed guns (?) but FIRST the bible
To quote the good book makes me liable

We can elect a pregnant seniour queen
And the unwed daddy our seniour king
Its inapropriate to teach right from wrong
We're taught that judgments do not belong

We can get our condoms and birth controls
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed
No word of god must reach this crowd
Its scary here I must confess
When chaos reigns the school's a mess
So Lord this silent prayer I make
Should I be shot My soul please take....Amen

If you are not ashamed to do this please pass this on.
Jesus said "If you are ashamed of me I will be ashamed of you before my father."

Not ashamed pass this on...

Spelling and punctuation are a combination of mine and his.

I really don't expect an answer to my rebuttal from this person. Like most of his ilk who send this type of stuff it is hit and run. What would be interesting is how you might respond to him. I will print my response later. It is already a done deal so I can't retract anything or add anything either.

 

[Lord Kenneth]

My mom sent me a version of the "you can't see the professor's brain" story.

One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was going to explain evolution to the children.

The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.


A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy:
Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions by this time).
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yessssss!
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?
TOMMY: No
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!

(You Go Girl!)

Needless to say, I demolished it.

 

[Tricky]

I've been a skeptic for many years, but until I came to the JREF forum, I never saw some of the sophisticated arguments for skepticism. While it hasn't significantly changed my core beleifs (although I now more correctly call myself an atheist, rather than an agnostic), it is made me a lot more confident in presenting those beliefs, should the occasion occur, which mostly happens here, but occasionally in the "real world".

I've also learned how to deal with people with irrational beliefs. I always thought I should just shut up, but now I see that many people with irrational beliefs really want to talk about them. I'm actually doing them a favor by challenging their bullsh!t.

I've also learned a lot about philosophy (which was an unknown subject to me two years ago) and a heck of a lot about their terminology. (I can now use the word "ontology" with confidence).

Thanks JREF Forums. You've made a difference in my life.

 

[Keneke]

That's the crux of it, Tricky. JREF has made a difference in my life too.

 

[7th sextile]

...and of course old 7th uses the forum's captive audience to
inflic-I mean share-his wonderfully execrable verse,e.g.:

It's almost slanderous to say
That we are not allowed to pray
In school.I pray each time I am
Required to take a tough exam
In Math-or French-or History-
Okay,they all are tough for me:
"Dear Lord,please help me pass this test,
I've studied hard and tried my best-
I'd like at least a seventy-one,
Yet not my will but thine be done."
And yes,I even know one teacher-
You'd hardly take him for a preacher-
Who right in public school is liable
To mention verses from the Bible;
But then,of course,the ones he picks
Are Matthew,Chapter 6,5-6.
Where Christ has roughly this to say
About the way we ought to pray:
"Now don't go braying in the street
To try impressing peeps you meet.
Go home,go in,go down the hall,
You'll find a room that's quiet and small.
Be sure to close the door behind you.
Don't worry,God can always find you-
So do your praying in secret there
And Father will reward that prayer."

There're sects and sects and prayers and prayers,
And "we" have ours and "they" have theirs
And hence the rule re school and prayer.
It isn't perfect,but it's fair.
And lastly Lord,please help me see
The best way of proclaiming Thee
Is not by giving folks an earful,
But being humble,loving,cheerful,
Forgiving,pure of heart,and true-
Yeah,less like me and more like You-
'Cause if I live like that,well,then
My life will be my prayer.Amen.

7th

 

[T'ai Chi]

Hi jimmygun,

I've always considered myself a 'critical thinker' and magic trick enjoyer, but realized I hadn't been exposed to the critical thinking community at large, and was most likely missing out on many interesting things.

As I'd suspect a lot of people 'started out', I studied the logical fallacies until I had mastered them D). I also read books by Gould, Randi, Sagan, Shermer, Gardner, and several others. I didn't always agree with their opinions, but I almost always agreed with their statements.

Now when I read or hear about issues that are 'interesting' (whether so-called paranormal or otherwise), I feel I am better prepared to examine them, as well as better prepared to communicate my own thoughts.

 

[calladus]

Is anyone out there in the same situation as I find myself?

Yes -

As a deconverted Christian, it has placed a strain on a long-time friendship. He lives in Texas, I in California, and we communicate (mostly) via email.

When I 'came out' and started talking about my Atheism, he desperately tried to save me. While I appreciated his concerns, I felt that he was not really able to support me in any way. For a time I thought he would 'Shake the dust off of his sandals' and move on.

We got into some pretty heated email debate, with him staying inflexable. (He is what I would consider a selective literalist - he takes the parts of the bible he likes very literally, and ignores the uncomfortable bits, preferring to interpret those bits away.)

When that started to calm down he started sending me Christian glurges .

He would send bad Christian poetry, 30 or 40 stanzas that he downloaded from the net. (I prefer Kipling or Frost myself) or these 'amazing' stories of answered prayers or miracles. I would fire off an Atheist response and it would get heated again. It didn't help that he wanted me to spam all my friends with this junk too.

I just didn't have the time and energy to oppose this all the time. So I wrote him an email saying that it was damaging our friendship, and that I would prefer to agree to disagree. I said I wouldn't spam him with nonbeliever rhetoric if he would refrain from the Christian spam. For the most part, it's worked out.

-----------

NOW what I get is from my co-workers (we work for a fairly large company where most have email access) who 'broadcast' emails to the whole company or to separate departments. This happens fairly often. (Man, talk about a time bomb waiting to explode! I can't WAIT to see what happens when someone's intensely personal email gets set 'free' in this environment!)

I often receive emails asking for prayers, or a Christian email that says something uniquely Christian. Only once have I responded negatively, when a writer's poor word choice seemed to disrespect the beliefs of others.

When asked for prayers, I will usually respond with, "I'm pulling for you." or "I'll keep you in my thoughts." A polite message of support, with no religious context.

Christian glurges from work usually get deleted w/out reading. I'm contemplating creating several Atheist glurges that I can email back, but that seems like a lot of work. Maybe the people here in the Forums can create one or two non-believer glurges each, that we can borrow from and fire off at will?

 

[calladus]

Forgive the length but here is the poem I was sent...

New School Prayer / Sid Phelan

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule

Oh for Yot's sake! THIS is the Frikkin poem I got from my friend in Texas! He didn't appreciate me tearing it up.

 

[UserGoogol]

My mom sent me a version of the "you can't see the professor's brain" story.

Needless to say, I demolished it.

Yeah, it's got some obvious flaws. Besides being a stupid argument, as a myth it clearly perpeptuates the dangerous stereotype that teachers who teach Evolution teach Atheism with it, and thusly makes Evolution being taught in schools quite the obvious thing to oppose. In actuality, it's just as uninvolved with atheism as the entirely uncontroversial and often taught theory of how the planets formed.

(Of course, you already knew that.)

 

[jimmygun]

I sent my response to my friend and thus far have recieved nothing in reply other than general jokes and cartoons. I have filed his original e-mail about the back to school prayer as a hit and run effort that required only that he hit his special send button to disseminate something I am sure he never even fully read.

Such is a failing of evangelism. It cares only to bark and not to listen. It is a lazy, impotent way of pretending to do something but is actually just spinning the tires.

For too many years people of his ilk have gotten away with this type of malarky only because others were taught never to question someone's beliefs or the reasons behind them. What is too bad really is that I can dissagree with those types and still be aware of their right to be wrong, whereas they consider me to be an evil, to be avoided. Oh well, perhaps if we that can offer argument to this type of person do so, their circle will shrink to its rightful proportion.