Universal Design

[BillHoyt]

Do I believe circumcision is necessary? No. Although it is rather curious how this is the one thing God recommends we do. What was the reason for the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden? And doesn't it look the head of a serpent to you? And what did I say about the serpent being revered as a symbol of Eternity elsewhere? Now isn't that the least bit weird?

Oh yes, and what do serpents do? ... Shed their skins!

Which god? Allah? Rama? Shiva?

Your revered serpent, I'm afraid, is not revered in Genesis. I think you need to go back and read that. It also reappears later, as you may recall, in the other testament. Not revered there either. You need to get your story straight.

But again you show a paucity of imagination. Why not simply conclude this god has an inferiority problem and wants to make sure he's the biggest d**k around?

 

[Cleopatra]

Nope, neither. Albeit I have heard something about the blood's abilty to coagulate on the 8th day.

I haven't heard that.

In Torah all references to the numbers have great significance.For example the number six represent the physical world which has four directions (north, south, east and west) plus up and down. The six days of creation, the six days of the work-week, also allude to the physical world.

Eight, on the other hand, transcends the physical world. For example, the eight-day miracle of Chanukah is beyond nature, surpassing the physical constraints of natural laws and standards. Eight represents a higher dimension of reality.

God's guarantee that Abraham's children would survive forever as a nation defies the laws of nature.

You see, you might have discovered America but some others have discovered it since the 15th ce.

By the way, when's the last time you've been to my forum? It seems like ages. Was it something I said? Or, was it just too boring? (i.e., quiet).

Oh not at all. I am just a person of habit , also you slip the way sand slips from the fingers and I don't want to nail you down but I cannot chase you either.

As I told you in another thread philosophy is something really beautiful because it's something very specific that exists to cover the needs of ordinary people who run ordinary lives.

 

[Iacchus]

Which god? Allah? Rama? Shiva?

Your revered serpent, I'm afraid, is not revered in Genesis. I think you need to go back and read that. It also reappears later, as you may recall, in the other testament. Not revered there either. You need to get your story straight.

Just in case you missed something here ...

To recognize man's inherent snake-nature perhaps and, to remind us of God's covenant? By the way, did you ever get a close look at one of those things? Also, did you know that in certain parts of the world the serpent is revered as a symbol of Eternity? Hey, it's all part of the overall design, right?

But again you show a paucity of imagination. Why not simply conclude this god has an inferiority problem and wants to make sure he's the biggest d**k around?

Hey, there's no doubt that God is sexual, just look at the antics of Zeus or, the Kama Sutra.

 

[Cleopatra]

Iacchus don't pass like that the symbolism that Bill pointed out to you.

Why not simply conclude this god has an inferiority problem and wants to make sure he's the biggest d**k around?

This is common at least in 3 different cultures I can bring to my mind, just like that in the middle of the night. Don't dismiss it with such a light heart.

 

[Iacchus]

I haven't heard that.

Well, actually it could have had something to with the immune system not being fully established. I don't recall exactly. It was something I saw on TV the other night. It could have been Seinfeld, when they were making a big fuss about getting ahold of someone to do a circumcision and everything went to hell.

In Torah all references to the numbers have great significance.For example the number six represent the physical world which has four directions (north, south, east and west) plus up and down. The six days of creation, the six days of the work-week, also allude to the physical world.

Eight, on the other hand, transcends the physical world. For example, the eight-day miracle of Chanukah is beyond nature, surpassing the physical constraints of natural laws and standards. Eight represents a higher dimension of reality.

God's guarantee that Abraham's children would survive forever as a nation defies the laws of nature.

Yeah, that makes sense.

You see, you might have discovered America but some others have discovered it since the 15th ce.

What, are you referring to me?

Oh not at all. I am just a person of habit , also you slip the way sand slips from the fingers and I don't want to nail you down but I cannot chase you either.

What are you saying I don't give you anything to hold onto? Oh well, I'm kind of like that.

As I told you in another thread philosophy is something really beautiful because it's something very specific that exists to cover the needs of ordinary people who run ordinary lives.

When was this? Neither am I sure what you mean? Do you mean because it gives people something to enjoy?

 

[Iacchus]

Iacchus don't pass like that the symbolism that Bill pointed out to you.

This is common at least in 3 different cultures I can bring to my mind, just like that in the middle of the night. Don't dismiss it with such a light heart.

What is common? The thing about the serpent being a bad thing?

 

[Cleopatra]

It seems that the time to put a full stop to this topic has arrived for me. As always, it's been a pleasure Iacchus.I enjoy multiple interpretations of the texts as long as such texts exist.

Yeah, that makes sense.

It makes sense. The world around us can be described by mathematical equations that's why it makes sense. I remember I was dating a mathematician once and he sent me a long mathematical equation. It's was the mathematical description of a flower I suppose that a lot of sophistry was involved in that but still... If you know how something works this knowledge doesn't make it less beautiful.

Beauty has nothing to do with "magic" but this is the topic for another discussion.

When was this? Neither am I sure what you mean? Do you mean because it gives people something to enjoy?

I mentioned that in the thread about the ethics of Plato. Philosophy is about everyday life's decisions, it shouldn't be something mystical or vague and it's none of religion's business and this comes from somebody who is not an atheist.

* ...And having said that she rides her flying carpet and disappears in the kykeon of the threads...*

 

[Dancing David]

Hi Iachuss,

So if you percieve a pattern how does that imply intent to design?

The 'our brains have intelligence and therefore there is design' is a no go for me because it is the product and contingent history and evolution.

 

[Iacchus]

"To anyone who considered that I would actually make a nude avatar, given previous controversy. I wouldn't.
To anyone who is using this bit of fun (yeah remember that?) to make or score points in other higher arguments in other threads and forums/fora (whatever you want to call the plural), You can get stuffed."~Reginald.

Hey now, my dolphins don't got no clothes on, and what's so God awful about that?

 

[Iacchus]

Hi Iachuss,

So if you percieve a pattern how does that imply intent to design?

The 'our brains have intelligence and therefore there is design' is a no go for me because it is the product and contingent history and evolution.

Would evolution have been possible without the immutable laws of nature (physics) to guide them? And, do you realize that intelligence is the by-product of structure? So why was there any structure to the Universe in the first place? ... If, in fact structure seems to convey intelligence?

 

[BillHoyt]

Would evolution have been possible without the immutable laws of nature (physics) to guide them?

Evolution is a consequence of the underlying laws, yes. They do not need to be immutable.

And, do you realize that intelligence is the by-product of structure?

Yes.

So why was there any structure to the Universe in the first place? ... If, in fact structure seems to convey intelligence?

When you ask "why," I assume you want a particular kind of "why." You want a purpose. Science cannot give you any such teleological answer. It can provide "why" answers in the sense of why does this phenomenon give rise to that phenomenon.

When you get to your last question, though, you go circular. You begin by asserting that intelligence implies structure. Then you end by asserting structure implies intelligence. This is fallacious reasoning.

 

[daenku32]

Would evolution have been possible without the immutable laws of nature (physics) to guide them? And, do you realize that intelligence is the by-product of structure? So why was there any structure to the Universe in the first place? ... If, in fact structure seems to convey intelligence?

Are you telling me the erosion on my property is part of some intelligent decision?

 

[Iacchus]

Are you telling me the erosion on my property is part of some intelligent decision?

If it follows the rules, I would say yes.

 

[daenku32]

If it follows the rules, I would say yes.

It doesn't have the option to not to. We all must follow the rules. It's not up to any will to not obey them.

That's about as intelligent as giving multiple choice questions with only one 'option' to choose from.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that when decision are made from actual options that intelligence is involved.

 

[Iacchus]

It doesn't have the option to not to. We all must follow the rules. It's not up to any will to not obey them.

That's about as intelligent as giving multiple choice questions with only one 'option' to choose from.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that when decision are made from actual options that intelligence is involved.

But tell me, who's the one that created the rat maze then? Or, are you tring to tell that just happened arbitrarily?

 

[daenku32]

What option did it have?

 

[BillHoyt]

But tell me, who's the one that created the rat maze then? Or, are you tring to tell that just happened arbitrarily?

Insert god into the equation here, and make the same demand:
"But tell me, who created god?"

For some reason, you fail to see how your intended answer simply begs the question. If the complexity of the universe can only be explained by its having had a creator, what does that say about the creator? Who created it? And who created that? And that?

You've answered nothing, you see.

(edited to add)
God gotta daddy!

 

[Dancing David]

Ah ha! You said rat maze , did you not Iachuss? I agree there may have been some creation deliberate or in deliberate of the universe.

But where in nature do you see a pattern similar to a rat maze, which would have a purposeful intent.

So far what i see is that certain animal and plant processes have some purpose if not intent , and there are some animals that definitly show intent.

But a sand dune does not seem to show intent it seems to show the 'contingent history' of all the sand particles, wind particles, water particles and gravity. And the fact that apparent structure can arise from random events says to me that there are patterns of contingent random interaction. I do not see purpose full structure to the universe.

Take evolution of life, random atoms interact to create random molecules, some molecules can catalyze other molecules, eventualy given totaly random processes, you get collectives of self catalyzing molecules, give them a memebrane and off they go. All random, all without pattern until you get to that point, then a set of molecules that can recreate itself has a very high probabilty of replicating.

I would argue there is no intent there just the random interaction of atoms of billions of years.

If there was design to the universe, what pattern would show that design?

 

[Iacchus]

Insert god into the equation here, and make the same demand:
"But tell me, who created god?"

What are you suggesting, that the laws of physics are not immutable and set in place, and just happened to pop up of their own accord?

For some reason, you fail to see how your intended answer simply begs the question. If the complexity of the universe can only be explained by its having had a creator, what does that say about the creator? Who created it? And who created that? And that?

It says he knows a lot more about it than we do.

You've answered nothing, you see.

(edited to add)
God gotta daddy!

Goes to show that we only see what we want to see. So?

 

[Iacchus]

Ah ha! You said rat maze , did you not Iachuss? I agree there may have been some creation deliberate or in deliberate of the universe.

But where in nature do you see a pattern similar to a rat maze, which would have a purposeful intent.

I'm trying to suggest that somebody has set the ground rules -- externally --which channels the outcome or event.

So far what i see is that certain animal and plant processes have some purpose if not intent , and there are some animals that definitly show intent.

It doesn't matter. Things just don't exist in and of their own accord.

But a sand dune does not seem to show intent it seems to show the 'contingent history' of all the sand particles, wind particles, water particles and gravity. And the fact that apparent structure can arise from random events says to me that there are patterns of contingent random interaction. I do not see purpose full structure to the universe.

However, the sand dune follows the rules which are contingent to the sand dune. The sand dune is not there arbitrarily.

Take evolution of life, random atoms interact to create random molecules, some molecules can catalyze other molecules, eventualy given totaly random processes, you get collectives of self catalyzing molecules, give them a memebrane and off they go. All random, all without pattern until you get to that point, then a set of molecules that can recreate itself has a very high probabilty of replicating.

Without the ground rules, nothing would exist.

I would argue there is no intent there just the random interaction of atoms of billions of years.

If there was design to the universe, what pattern would show that design?

The Universe is very much like the unfolding of a flower. Hey, now didn't I say this once before?