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Universal Design

Iacchus

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Dec 24, 2003
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Everything is related to the design of the whole. Without the whole, there would be no design. For example, what purpose would a finger serve, isolated and detached, and at one point was not attached to a living body? Therefore the finger serves as part of the overall design of the whole, just as every single last detail in the Universe does. And do you know what? It suggests there's an ultimate purpose to everything which, is Universal (by design) by the way. ;)
 
[Everything is related to the design of the whole.]

  • In a sense.
[Without the whole, there would be no design.]

  • That makes no sense.
[For example, what purpose would a finger serve, isolated and detached, and at one point was not attached to a living body]

  • The only "purpose" that anything serves is the purpose we create for it. There is no "purpose" except that which we create for anything and everything that exists. For example, if you're playing pool, you can say that the cue ball's purpose is to hit this ball or that ball, but it is just a collection of particles smacking another collection of particles, transfering kinetic energy in the process. By itself, it has no purpose. We give it purpose. Without us, "purpose" wouldn't exist, just as the concept of "time" wouldn't make any sense in a Universe devoid of matter. (lacking any sort of motion through this time.)
[Therefore the finger serves as part of the overall design of the whole, just as every single last detail in the Universe does. ]

  • You can call the makeup and distribution of matter in the Universe a "design," and, sure, a finger would be part of the overall "design."
[It suggests there's an ultimate purpose to everything which, is Universal (by design) by the way.]

  • No, it doesn't. You are assuming that purpose which we apply to the world can exist without us, then using that assumption to show that purpose can exist without us. ;)
 
Originally posted by Iacchus

Everything is related to the design of the whole. Without the whole, there would be no design.
What purpose would a universe serve, isolated and detached? Without some greater whole to be a part of, there would be no design (to the whole). I think you have a problem here with infinite regress.
 
Assuming the whole was, indeed, designed. Why make this assumption?

If there are any never-attached fingers lying about, then by Iacchian definition ("every last single detail") they must have a purpose. But where has it been demonstrated that there is either purpose or design to the universe?
 
Dymanic said:

What purpose would a universe serve, isolated and detached? Without some greater whole to be a part of, there would be no design (to the whole). I think you have a problem here with infinite regress.
Actually, I'm not even sure I needed to mention the Universe as a whole, since there are microcosms within microcosms and macrocosms beyond macrocosms still. And the only thing that really needs to be mentioned is that everything serves it's purpose in relation to the relative whole. In which case the whole can be anything relative to the sum of its parts. For example the finger in relation to the hand serves the purpose of the hand as a whole; and, when taken further, the hand serves the purpose of the body as whole; and, when taken further, the body serves the purpose of family unit as a whole; and, when taken further, the family serves the purpose of the community as a whole; and on so and so forth, ad infinitum.

Albeit by mentioning the Universe as a whole, it does convey a sense of Universal Design now doesn't it?
 
Iacchus said:
Everything is related to the design of the whole. Without the whole, there would be no design. For example, what purpose would a finger serve, isolated and detached, and at one point was not attached to a living body? Therefore the finger serves as part of the overall design of the whole, just as every single last detail in the Universe does. And do you know what? It suggests there's an ultimate purpose to everything which, is Universal (by design) by the way. ;)

Does this kind of nonsense work on anyone who's older than fifteen?

Seriously. I'd like to hear from anyone on this board who thinks this is good stuff.
 
pupdog said:

Assuming the whole was, indeed, designed. Why make this assumption?
Regardless, you cannot say the whole is without its design.


If there are any never-attached fingers lying about, then by Iacchian definition ("every last single detail") they must have a purpose. But where has it been demonstrated that there is either purpose or design to the universe?
Would it have made more sense if I said "severed" fingers? Obviously the fingers must have come from some place, right? So, once they've become detached, they don't serve any purpose to the body as a whole. Unless of course you plan to eat them for dinner. Ummm good, finger food. :p
 
Re: Re: Universal Design

scribble said:
Seriously. I'd like to hear from anyone on this board who thinks this is good stuff.

It's GOLD, Jerry! GOLD! :D

hytner.gif
 
scribble said:

Does this kind of nonsense work on anyone who's older than fifteen?

Seriously. I'd like to hear from anyone on this board who thinks this is good stuff.
However, it clearly illustrates that everything has a sense of purpose. For example, what would be the purpose of a leg, if not to give you a leg to stand on? :D
 
Iacchus said:
However, it clearly illustrates that everything has a sense of purpose.
Of course it does, if you simply ignore my original post. I'm still waiting for a reply. And no, sorry, a reply to this post doesn't qualify. Please reply to my original post. Take it sentence by sentence. Do not skip anything, please. :D
 
um... let me think... No. Just because something is part of a whole does not invoke purpose.

Functionality insists that, if you remove an item from the whole it in some way detracts from that whole. If you remove a cog from a watch, the watch may cease to function; therefore, we know the cog has a function.

Likewise, we know that if we remove a finger from a body, the body's functions become impaired, albeit slightly. This denotes that the finger has a function.

Intelligent design infers function toward a purpose, and insists that all parts of the whole further the totality of its purpose. The cogs of a watch all function toward the purpose of measuring the movement of time. The primary organs of the body all function toward the necessary processes to sustain life, reproduce, etc.

Artistic design infers function towards an aesthetic purpose, in which the parts may or may not function towards the whole, but are stylistically or artistically a part of the whole - like the engraving of a watch case or the painting of a structure. However, aesthetic purpose fails with regards to organic life - although some life is beautiful, in no case is the aesthetic appearance of life completely aesthetic. Human skin tones differ in the ammount of present pigmentation, which is all part of the function of protection of the organism from harmful effects of sunlight. Beautiful plumage on birds attracts mates. Spots on butterflies' wings ward off predators. Every ounce of beauty in nature is geared toward purpose... and, of course, beauty is purely a subjective term applied by the human observer.

Some may choose to see intelligence applied behind the design and function of life-forms... yet I wonder at this concept because there are parts of the whole which serve no purpose whatsoever. The vestigial organs of the human body serve no purpose and can be removed without concern. Nor do they serve aesthetic purpose. They are a result of natural process, not intelligent or artistic design.

What purpose the bones in the fins of a whale, bones which resemble the bones of feet and fingers? Fish lack this structure design, and it serves no identifiable or reasonable purpose, neither functionally nor aesthetically, for the whale - or for any creature in contact with the whale.

What purpose the stinger of some bees, which when employed costs the life of the bee? If one cries intelligent design, one must be deeply concerned about a designer who creates self-destructive and suicidal life forms.

What purpose those tiny worms that attach to the eyelashes and do absolutely nothing? They cannot be seen, save by our advanced technology, cannot be sensed in any way, and are utterly without function. We neither need them nor notice them nor their lack... therefore, they serve no function or purpose.

This all serves to show that overall design, universal design, is sorely lacking with regard to life. But what about the rest of the universe?

Well, the very fact that most of the universe cannot support life infers that life is not the primary function of the universe. If so, what is the function of the universe? Based on analysis of its parts, there IS no function involved. Stars, nebulae, planets, clouds, all exist for no apparent reason. Sure, we can speculate a CAUSE for these events, but these are themselves phenomenae without function, without purpose. The universe does nothing well, or even adequately, except exists.

Your argument is a logical farce... that intelligent design can be inferred by wholeness. But what is wholeness? This is a complete absurdity. You're saying, "Look, everything is here, so someone must have designed it all." That's utter nonsense, and I doubt anyone over the age of 10 would buy it.

In fact, my son (who is 5) laughed outright. His answer was, "But if someone designed it all, they got it all wrong.. That's not too intelligent, Daddy."

There's not even a sensible means of refuting this gibberish, because we would never know if something was missing from the universe.. IN fact, your definition is so all-inclusive as to be meaningless as well.

I could just as well say that the parts of the Universe serve to make up its wholeness, so the Universe must be a machine. Well, it's just as nonsensical, and just as ridiculous.

No, Iacchus, once again, this is wishful thinking from the Deist crowd. The whole lacks design. The whole lacks common sense. The whole lacks function. The whole lacks pattern.

Thank you, good night.
 
zaayrdragon said:
In fact, my son (who is 5) laughed outright. His answer was, "But if someone designed it all, they got it all wrong.. That's not too intelligent, Daddy."


Thank you, good night. [/B]

Sheesh. I guess I was being too generous - and we still don't have anyone saying his post is all that.

<a href=http://www.zenspider.com/RWD/Thoughts/Inept.html >
Iacchus, is your feedback loop broken to the point that you can't even see how stupid your own arguments are?</a>

Seriously. Do you ever step back, take a look at things and ask yourself why the hell you're still posting here? I'm sure everyone else is wondering.
 
brian0918 said:

  • The only "purpose" that anything serves is the purpose we create for it. There is no "purpose" except that which we create for anything and everything that exists. For example, if you're playing pool, you can say that the cue ball's purpose is to hit this ball or that ball, but it is just a collection of particles smacking another collection of particles, transfering kinetic energy in the process. By itself, it has no purpose. We give it purpose. Without us, "purpose" wouldn't exist, just as the concept of "time" wouldn't make any sense in a Universe devoid of matter. (lacking any sort of motion through this time.)
  • In other words what you're saying is that we're the only purpose makers in a Universe which is otherwise without purpose, right? That doesn't make sense does it? Because obviously purpose does exist. How do you know, due to our large brains of course, that this is the very thing which allows us to recognize it? You know, like the more poweful a telescope you have, the more capable you are of observing the furthest outreaches of the Universe?


    You can call the makeup and distribution of matter in the Universe a "design," and, sure, a finger would be part of the overall "design."
    Yeah, it's not like it "popped up" out of nowhere right?


    No, it doesn't. You are assuming that purpose which we apply to the world can exist without us, then using that assumption to show that purpose can exist without us. ;)
    But then, what are you suggesting, that our sense of purpose exists outside of the Universe? How so? And how is it that we can even establish a sense of purpose, without acknowledging other Universal laws of order which have already been set in place? Which, in and of itself belies purpose.
 
scribble said:


Sheesh. I guess I was being too generous - and we still don't have anyone saying his post is all that.

<a href=http://www.zenspider.com/RWD/Thoughts/Inept.html >
Iacchus, is your feedback loop broken to the point that you can't even see how stupid your own arguments are?</a>

Seriously. Do you ever step back, take a look at things and ask yourself why the hell you're still posting here? I'm sure everyone else is wondering.

This post is rude and serves no purpose, unlike the IGNORE function. How does your post contribute to the conversation Scribble?
 
Iacchus said:
Everything is related to the design of the whole. Without the whole, there would be no design. For example, what purpose would a finger serve, isolated and detached, and at one point was not attached to a living body? Therefore the finger serves as part of the overall design of the whole, just as every single last detail in the Universe does. And do you know what? It suggests there's an ultimate purpose to everything which, is Universal (by design) by the way. ;)

One of the basic ways people make sense of the world is to evaluate purpose in the things we observe. I believe this is what "final causes" meant to Aristotle; the intent which guides the specific action. And so, people see purpose to harm (or help) them, in another person's actions; they can be mistaken, but being able to immediately evaluate such a purpose is beneficial to survival. Logic can be involved in the evaluation; but mostly this is intuitive/instinctive.

Taking this further, people see intent in non-human behavior; be it regarding animals -- where it can be a veridically correct evaluation, or the weather, or illness, or the flow of their own life, or their government. Thus we see purpose/intent in every perception; and it is good, and it is useful; sometimes, perhaps most times. And with that, personification springs forth; and the fire can TRY to destroy our homes; and we can try to Fight Back. And the universe can be our ally; or it can have something against us.

Without a strong intent of our own; we are prey to the ebbs and flows of life, and it truly is the case that the mindless universe (or "the force of others") has an intent stronger than their own, and drives that person's life for them.
 
Our legs fit into pants perfectly. Therefore our legs were designed to one day fit into pants.

God exists! What do I win?
 

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